MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [ptw]

[denyd]

One thing I normally do when I get TOE and still trail a couple of techs, is to check selling AT every turn waiting for the price to drop, that signals the impending discovery and then dump AT on everyone collecting required techs and all gold & gpt I can get. If you can bankrupt a couple of AI, it makes Electronics a tougher acquisition in the future for them. Considering the size of this island Hoover would be a major coup.

My build plan is to add factories and other infrastructure (banks, universites, etc). Move the defensive military (riflemen) to the western front and setup the offensive military for the Mori conquest. There is settler being built in the west destined for the old Hamamatsu spot. We should also be building a couple more boats for coming invasions. I'd refrain from adding any more cavalry since tanks are on the horizon. We probably need a few more riflemen (infantry) to feel more secure on the Takeda border).

I'm not sure what to do about the Han. Their neighbors would probably get squished if we managed to get them to ally against them. Our neighbors might be willing to ally against them, but we all know how effective the AI is on distant wars. A couple of coastal bombardments and maybe 2 or 3 units landed.

We might try a remote war with one of the other island weaklings, hoping for a gift city payment in the peace agreement. That would give us a base for our future assault.

Based on the current rate of play (the turns should be shorter now that the war is over), it'll probably be next year before it comes back to me again, so I'll just sit here quietly (riiiiiight) and watch and learn.

 

[denyd]

(Cross-Post with Ted)

I actually disagree with you on Replacement Parts. We know we can trade for that, so let's go for The Corporation or Radio (my preference). We can use a slow tech pace for Radio and then trade AT for Corporation & Replacement Parts followed by Electronics for Refining & Steel. That'll still leave us up Radio and researching Combustion with everyone else. We'll also know by then if we have any oil. I do recognize that will delay getting infantry & artillery (as well as speeding up our workers), but the triple tech monopoly is hard to resist.

 

[TedJackson]

I was thinking in terms of the coming war where Artillery, in particular, will be very important to us.

I can see the attraction of the Radio path and, providing we don't become embroiled in another pointless war, it's probably the better choice.


Ted

 

[DaveShack]

Thoughts on Hoover:

Wow, this is cutting it close. When I'm going to try a ToE / Hoover double, I start a prebuild for Hoover a few turns before ToE comes in. Of course the war effort cramped our style on that stragegy.

More shields can be squeezed out of Ise by mine+RR two hills or mountains and then irrigate a grassland to compensate. (or tile swapping to get more food to offset no/low food tiles). We can also run a food defecit for a few turns and then switch back.

There is marginal benefit from putting in a few turns on a factory and then rushing it before starting Hoover. A factory is 8 base turns at our current shields, and would cut Hoover to 15, all things being equal. It improves our position in the race by however many turns we can afford to rush.

The Han have several cities which are serious contenders for Hoover. Do I understand correctly that we are up AT on everyone? If so, trading it would leave someone with a minimum 4-turn research for Electronics, so we would have that much lead.

If we can spare the gold, how about investigating the likely places that Han would build Hoover to get their actual shield output. We're in deep stuff if they have factories, since by raw tile counts they're pushing 40+ shields in their top cities.

 

[a space oddity]

Well, played the pre-turn and the first part of the first turn and I'm calling it a night.

The bad news is: we don't have Korea's cash.
The good news is: we are at tech parity! That's including the Han! [dance]

(ok, ok, so we don't have communism, who cares?)

Good thinking about that factory, Dave, I'll switch! BTW the base is 5 turns for a tech in this game.

 

[barbslinger]

Didn't you start with Korea? I thought the standard play was start with the civ with the most cash. Oh well, as Ted says, "That's CIV!"

 

[a space oddity]

Han has researched AT by himself, I hoped we would have 1 turn grace, but we didn't.

 

[barbslinger]

Keep at it Space! We were on the edge of our seats a while back and now we are in a far stronger position. Go get 'em.

 

[a space oddity]

Still playing. I've done 5 turns now, focusing on production this time.
The Han are probably 1 turn away from Electronics (I've seen their offer steadily going down ), so I will get some of his wealth to help us upgrade our troops. When they start Hoovers, I will take a peek in that city to see whether we still have a shot at it. Maybe we get lucky and the -y AI will pick an inappropriate city to build it in. Not much we can do about it at this stage.

BTW we also have Communism now and are still the tech leader.

 

[denyd]

Any chance of declaring on the Han and using our tech to get everyone else into a dogpile on the Han?

That might slow down their science and allow us to get Hoover.

Do we have refining yet? Any oil?

 

[a space oddity]

In five turns? Self researching? No, still 19 turns to go. But I'm guessing Shimazu might be researching it.
I would be breaking deals declaring the Han, normally I play honourable all the way, but if the team deems this a good strategy at this point, I will.

 

[denyd]

I should've remembered the deal with the Han since I made it.

If we manage to get oil on our little island, we should be able to take all of the northern territories. It's the Han in the south that I see us having trouble with.

[Caution: Exploit ahead] What we might need to do is have 4-6 transports move to the northern edge of Korea / Han island. Declare on the weakest coastal AI. Then take 4-6 cities from them. Build a harbor in one of those cities, then once we get a GL (optimist here), move all of our offensive troops to a disposable city, GL rush the palace in the harbor city and gift the disposable city to the Kuroda. Voila, all of the troops are in the capital and ready to raze everything from there to the end of the Han. [Exploit over]

 

[a space oddity]

We have at least 7 turns left on deals with all the civs on the Korean continent, but this could be still in time if I manage to get Transports on their way before that.

 

[a space oddity]

Goals:
Build factories in our most productive cities.
Trade AT at the exact right moment... .. and try to get back into the tech race.
Setup troops and boats to invade Chosogabe.

Pre-turn:
A reminder of the tech situation.
Baekje: behind, still need Physics.
Gogu: up Comm & Espionage, down AT
Han: up Comm, Sani, Esp, Corp and Rep Parts, down AT
Shimazu: up Comm, Sani, Esp, Corp and Rep Parts, down AT
Gogu: up Comm, Sani & Espionage, down AT
Mori: up Comm & Espionage, down Electricity
Korea: up Comm, Sani, Esp, Corp and Rep Parts, down AT
Takeda: up Comm, Sani & Espionage, down AT

Like DenyD mentioned we can get Espionage and change for Electricity, I'm tempted, but first domestics.

Switch the cities in the production top-10 to factory, unless there's a military unit almost complete or it's building Hoover...
Switch cities that build cannon in 34 turns to worker.
Put Yok Revenge on starvation.
Hurry settler in Koromositu.
Upgrade 4 catapults to cannon for 160gp.
Switch Kobe from Cav to Cannon Kublai.
MM Ise to get Hoover in 22 turns.

Lots of worker movement left in this turn... try to make 'sensible stacks' as tought by NP

Happiness check, OK!

Time to get back to the foreign affairs, Espionage is tempting but we'd still have to build the Agency before we can do anything. Our production being occupied building factories, I'm hesitating. The Mori are still at war but are the only ones without Elec. In the end I make the deal, to use that bit of tech lead that we *do* have over some (apart from the bottom have of the tech tree, that is).
So trade Electricity for Espionage, WM and 16g. (all they have apart from Communism)

I decide to leave the slider at (9.0.1) for +247gpt.

Press Enter:

IT:
Takeda trespasses to get at the Mori.
We get the IA message.
Azuchi Cav -> Factory
Kyoto Cav -> Cav
Owase Worker -> Worker
New Iida Worker -> Worker
Koromositu Settler -> Cannon
We catch Korea trying to plant a spy...

1060AD - turn 1
The Han have AT and sold it to Korea. I'm sorry guys, I did not know it was already so close.
The others don't have it yet, so I decide to make straight deals with Shimazu and Choso.
Trade AT to Choso for Rep. Parts, WM and 34g.
Trade AT to Shimazu for The Corp, Sanitation, WM and 34g.
The good news is we are at complete tech parity (save communism)! My fear was that after Corp they would have further (invisible techs), but they don't!
Han offers Communism(!), 96gpt and 2390g for Electronics, so their are still quite far away from researching it.

Work hard at upgrading our infra, try to organise the workers.
Upgrade a few rifles to Infs.
Switch Ise to factory to in the end get Hoovers quicker.

Decide to trade AT to Goguryeo for Communism, WM, 28g and 12gpt.

Check happiness, and press enter.

IT:
Takeda and Mori are still at it.
Shakasani Library -> Inf

1070AD - turn 2
Han will give WM, +137gpt and 2720gp for Electronics, to keep record to see whether they are researching it.
More worker movement.
Try to spot MM opportunities, but there are not many.
Researching Refining in 22 turns at -29gpt.
We are second in productivity, land area and GNP, but first in annual income and population.
Check happines and press enter.

IT:
Takeda and Kuroda sign a trade embargo against us.
Winegaki Cav -> Inf
Ogaki Temple -> Library

1080AD - turn 3
Han will give WM, +71gpt and 3050gp for Electronics. Oh-o, not good.
Kuroda is willing to talk now, in due time we will trade TMs to see where they are.
Found New Koromo, start walls, upgrade the defending Rifle to Inf.
Move the slider to (6.4.0) which makes them less happy, but gives us a positive balance: +42gpt
We are now first in GNP too.

IT:
Sasebo Temple -> Worker
New Hamamatsu Worker -> Worker
Pusan (Korea) complete Univ. Suff.

1090AD - turn 4
Han will now give WM, +7gpt and 3330gp.
Hurry Temple in New Ise.
More worker moves and troop movement. Two boats are on a long trek east.
Check happiness, press enter.

IT:
Takeda and Mori are still at it.
New Ise Temple -> Library
Yokkachi Inf -> Arty
Kumano Explorer -> Worker
Sakai Inf -> Ironclad
Kasugai Cav -> Inf
Tehjay Cav -> Inf

1100AD - turn 5
Han now offers WM and 2480g, will they have it next turn? The offer went down with apx 3000g each turn, so I guess they will.
I will sell to use the money for upgrades, the Shimazu will offer a nice gpt too.
First I will sleep on it.

 

[a space oddity]

Ok, slept on it and will have to bite through, *sigh*.
Sell Electronics to Han for WM and 2761g.
Shimazu offers Fur, Wm, 103g and 82gpt but this will be another one who will possibly build it, but if I don't sell the Han will. So with a heavy hart I make the deal. This allows us to get Refining in 13 turns. Use the money for lots of upgrades.
Korea has a few very productive cities, so here's where I decide to stop. They don't have enough money to buy it from one of the other two.

Change builds in a few of our Soutern haboured town to Cannon Kublai.

IT:
Shimazu and Takeda make peace.
Korea offers to extend peace, I hate it when they do it like that, you can't refuse without breaking deals and you can't negotiate. So, yeah I guess so. Grumph.
The Gpgu do the same, so I guess the Beakje will be our target.
Koromo Inf -> Inf
Ichinomiya Worker -> Worker
Kuki Isle Temple -> Rax
New Azuchi cav -> Inf
Pressure-1 Cav -> Ironclad
The Han start Hoover in Beijing.

1110AD - turn 6
I can up the slider to (3.7.0) for Refining in 10 @ 19gpt.
I use 272g to investigate Beijing... well, see for yourself

Not only does it have a factory but a coal plant as well. Such is civ. No matter how hard we hit them in 6 turns it won't be enough. We've lost this one guys, but we will manage without it.

Still focussing on production, a lot of tiles in both our cores are not improved yet. Our people are extremely happy.

IT:
Korea and Gogu MPP. We can use that later!
Nagoya Inf -> Inf
Kobe Cannon Kublai -> Cannon Kublai
Ise Factory -> Hoover (we can switch to the Agency if we have to)
Kokomo Worker -> Worker

1120AD - turn 7
Hurry Temple in Yok Revenge.
More worker moves.
Korea has Electronics too now, but both they and Shimazu didn't start Hoover, do they 'know' it's useless, or are they busy building factories, like we are?

IT:
Choso and Takeda sign peace.
Takeda takes Shizuoka.
The AI go for the Mori now.
Choso have landed a mina Sam next to Pressure-1, but it's aiming for Niimi, for a minute I hoped they were 'surprise' attacking us.
Yok Revenge Temple -> Worker
Tanabe Inf -> Inf
Yaizu Inf -> Inf
Sasebo Worker -> Harbor
Morayamaku Inf -> Inf
The Shimazu start Hoover.

1130AD - turn 8
More worker moves.

IT:
The Mori are slowly losing.
Shimazu asks us to leave their waters, we will
Kukiyama Factory -> Inf
Embichi Cav -> Court
Toyotomi Cav -> Inf
Moriyama-ku Inf -> Cannon Kublai
Just before the Shimazu captures it, it finallly flips, Niimi is ours.

Korea start Hoovers.

1140AD - turn 9
Korea and the Han know Refining, we have it in 5 turns. We can buy it straight from Korea, but I see no reason to fund their research any further.
Our deal with the Han will finish in 4 turns, with Choso in 10, with the Mori and Baekje in 8.

IT:
Choso and Mori sign peace.
Kyoto Cav -> Cav
Suzuka Factory -> Inf
Hikone Inf -> Inf

1150AD - turn 10
I move only the workers in this turn, to leave as many options as possible open for the next player.

 

[a space oddity]

first the save

The score: 2071 trailing Takeda by about 60 points.

Our producting is finally taking shape and we have an almost complete railnet. This should enable us to use our troops in a flexible manner. Stacks are waiting in Kobe and Moriyama-ku, but more can be assembled.
Takeda is currently moving his troops though our lands to attack the Mori, since the Mori can't really attack anymore.

Who should *we* attack?
the Mori? They are losing, we should finally take their cities, before someone else does.
the Chosogabe? To get a luxery monopoly.
the Beakje? To drag the Han into a war.

The downside to all this is that we have to wait another 7 turns before the deals finish. Can we afford that, or should we take desperate action. This is well within the GOTM rules, mind you, just a personal limitation that I don't want to impose on the team.

 

[a space oddity]

BTW another option is asking Shimazu to leave our turf and hoping they declare. But I'm not sure we are up to that already.

 

[TedJackson]

Well played Space

Shame about Hoover but you can't win them all.


Ted

 

[mad-bax]

Daveshack is UP

 

[denyd]

Nice work Space, getting that productivity up will be the key to winning this one. We might still be able to squeek Hoovers if we can get a GL in time, but it's probably time to switch Ise to the Agency.

I favor removing the Mori then the Takeda. Once we have the island to ourselves all we need to to then is prevent spaceships & UN finishes to win, because we all know how well the AI invades across water. We should be able to over power the Mori and that should be our first objective (it's too bad though, cause they kind of saved our bacon in the Takeda war), then destroy the Takeda offensive units (they'll be in our territory on the way to the Mori).

Then it's time to build some boats and take the rest of the northern hemisphere. That will give us a couple of lux monopolies and hopefully oil. Since this is a conquest game, it'll be time to load up the boats and start razing North Korea. We should probably only keep a coastal city and a couple of wonder cities (don't want to risk flips or domination win). The AI normally goes for Steel & Combustion, so I suggest Radio next as trade bait.


After reading the allowable pages for the other teams, I don't see any way for us to beat them. They've got a couple of big advantages (slaves $30 and dumber AI) that make beating them pretty difficult. I'll be happy with a game victory.

Kudos again to Space