MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [ptw]

Originally posted by barbslinger
I don't think the kamikazes are an easter egg. They were in the GOTM originally. I remember Choso bombing me with them after I took out Mori. Aren't easter eggs something not found in the instructions. They are in the Civlo. Lets give them a run but they look like a weaker cruise missle with less attack.
Click to expand...

You may wish to apply your strategic game play skills to look at the kamikaze unit in comparison to the typical contemporary peer units that are available in the game instead of downgrading your assessment of the unit based on a half informed comparison to the future-to-be-discovered cruise missle.

Look closely at the range and and unique movement combination that applies to units with "cruise missle" abilities and then assess how the one population point cost may be a conversion of "pseudo-pop-rushing" that can be used even in monarchy-republic-democracy. A careful understanding of the techniques of layered-rushing and short-rushing might reveal skills that have special application to this unit but that in the long run will significantly improve your play skills in other areas.

When your first assessment of the situation reveals that the glass is half-empty, use this to hone your perspective checking tools to see all the ways that the glass can be seen to be at least half-full. ;) ;)
 
:D


Ted
 
Just to let you guys know, I intent to play this tonight but cannot garantee I get to finish them. I noticed the MM opportunities and assume to have a longish pre-turn. I will post in about 7 hours with an update on my progress. I'll build some kamikazes for sure, if only to get to see the unit in action.... :D
 
I don't think anyone expects you to finish in one sitting Space :)

Good Luck or should that be "Banzai!"? :D


Ted
 
MB4 - turnlog 1405AD

Goals:
Get rid of Takeda.
Build Kamikazes and try them out.
Steal tech when available.

Pre-turn:
As suggested I move the slider to (8.0.2) and optimize cities giving us +423gpt.
Ichinomiya and Kokomo will have a Kamikaze unit ready in 5 resp 8 turns.

Current deals:
Han: 9 turns on Gems for Wool and 7gpt, 2 turns Spices for Dyes and 37gpt.
Shimazu: 11 turns on 31gpt for Dyes, 7 Ivory for Wool and Wines and 3 turns 21gpt for Horses.
Choso: 16 turns on Silks for Coal and Wines, 8 12gpt for peace and embargo on Takeda.
Korea: 20 turns on 42gpt for Dyes, Wool andWines, 16 turns on peace deal.
Takeda: no deals, war.

IT
Takeda successfully bombards 1 rail and sends 1 Inf over.
Korea is heading for the Chosogabe with Transports.
Fuji quells resisters and riots.
New Azuchi Tank -> Factory
Lots of 'we love the lord' days end.

1410AD - turn 1
Diplo check show no new techs around.
Trade TMs with Choso getting 2/3 of his treasury (2g).
Our arties destroy a Bank and a Uni in Hitachi but make no dent in its pop (size 10).
We take Mito at the cost of 1 Tank.
A misclick leaves an explorer undefended. :(
I leave the Army empty for now. Next turn I'll fill it with Tanks.

IT
A Takeda Cav conducts harakiri on one of our new cities. 1 Cav is landed on our coast somewhere.
Choso attack a Han ironclad with a battleship and of course it's the latter which sinks.
Kyoto Bank -> Marine
Ise Tank -> Tank
Kukiyama Tank -> Tank
Ina Temple -> Kamikaze
Komaki Tank -> Tank
Moriyami-too Tank -> Tank
Pressure-1 Airport -> Bomber
Koromositu Court -> Settler
New Yokkachi Temple -> Kamikaze
The Han start UN and Manhattan Project! Shimazu starts UN!
...and the Han have taken a third Choso city. :(

1415AD - turn 2
Our Explorer survived! :)
Edo has only 4 defenders, all are hurt by our arty fire. So we attack and capture it together with about 100 workers. Well, OK not quite 100, but.. nice anyway.
Capture Ota, splitting Takeda's remaining land in two.
Load the Army with the newly built Tanks and send it to the front.

Of course the Han, Korea nor the Shimazu want to trade Fission, so attempt to steal from the Han for 1677g... :help:
The spy fails :(, but gets away with it. This is bad news, it will take at least 4 turns before we can try again...
 
I'm not sure which way to go right now. Reseaching ourselves at max (with a huge deficit which we can't afford) will only get it in 11 turns. Waiting for the next stealing opportunity seems like a huge gamble, but I can't see any other option right now. I really hope my bad luck (or ill adviced steal) hasn't cost us the game.
 
So the question becomes who hasn't fought a war with the Han or Shimazu?

We need to pillage the Shimazu capital ASAP (even before finishing off the Takeda) and break the Shimazu/Han trades.

If we have the means then the next step is to get a pillaging army to the Han as well.

IMHO all deals are off! We're fighting in order not to lose now.


Ted
p.s. Not a criticism of your play Space. Just how I see things needing to go :)
 
Cross posted with you again, Ted. :)

I agree, we need to take drastic measures, that's why I've stopped right now. I'm sure the team putting their minds together is capable of thinking up the optimal strategy.
 
What level of steal did you attempt? It looks like the risky which rarely comes in especially if the civ we're stealing from is in communism. This is rough. On the one hand even if the Han gets the vote it will probably be deadlocked with abstinations. Choso, abstains, Takada ?, is Baekje and Gogo alive still?, Korea abstains I would say and then no one can get a majority. they will probably not even call for a vote. They look to want conquest also.
On the steal, I would save for a safe steal with prebuild or if we have a leader save for turns a safe steal. This is predicated that the Han and Shimazu can build it in 12 turns. Is it in a city that can get 1000 shields in 11 turns. Post 315 shows Beijing at 71 shields or 15 turns. We should be able to get the UN within 11 with our leader. It is a tough call because they may have a leader ready to go from Choso war which would take 7-8 turns to get home. It looks like some math will have to be done on when you can save 3000g+ for safe or research to 11 turns. It's hard to say from work without looking at save.
Play it as you see it Space but I don't think Han will call for vote. Shimazu on the other hand just may and I would be more worried about them.
I will look at save tonight when I get home but hopefully you will have resolved this already.
I agree with pillaging the Shimazu build city if it is in a high shield city. They are coming up for thier turn at our sights anyhow. I would still prosecute Takada down to, at a minimum, no rubber and call it quits getting any 1-tile cities + cities + any thing else. then we can turn towards Choso and Shimazu lux cities.
Good luck.
 
Even though we failed on the steal from the Han, can't we try again on Korea or Shimazu if we have enough $$, or does the 4-turn block affect all steal attempts?

Save that leader for the UN if we somehow manage to get Fission in time.

If we've got (or can get) a second rubber source, gift it to Chosogabe so they can defend against the Han with Infantry. Another possibility is an ROP with Chosogabe and moving bunchs of units to block the Han from moving about the island, I doubt they want a war with us right now. Maybe a destroyer or two can close off the strait and prevent Han reinforcements. If you don't think that would work, let's get our chunk of Choso ASAP.

Where did the Takeda capital jump to? If it's Hitachi, we might be able to get the four western cities in a peace deal, then revolt to democracy (no war weariness to worry about and we're religious so only 1 turn anarchy) to jump start our income/research.

I was mistaken about the off shore Takeda city, I see now it's a multi-tile island. All we'll need is a transport.
samurai.gif


As for voting, it's got to be Oda vs Han. (unless Shimazu builds it first :eek: )

Takeda - Han
Korea - abstain probably (maybe Oda)
Han - Han
Chosogabe - Oda or abstain
Oda - Oda (we should probably abstain to keep from maybe winning)
Shimazu - ???

Which means probably no winner.

As for researching it ourselves, it would probably take longer than we have, so keep trying to steal or maybe work a lux + resource (oil/rubber) + $$ deal with Korea/Shimazu.

Lot's of ideas from me, keep what you like and ignore the rest
karate-kid.gif
 
Beakje and Gogu are not around any more. I agree that it would be worse if the Shimazu should get the UN. So I'll probably declare them and pillage the capital. Korea has Fission too and very productive cities as well and while we are powerful right now, I don't think we can take them on all three at the same time. The steal was at the lowest level because we are still not making very much money. I won't cancel all the deals because this would hurt our happiness too much and will be affecting our money position. What would be best if we could get them somehow to fight amongst each other, getting them all to not call the vote.

I won't play anymore tonight (it's almost midnight here and it will be an early morning for me tomorrow) so please feel free to post any thoughts.

edit: I saw that you already did. :) I'll post a save from the current situation, for you guys to chew on.

The current situation.
 
I'll have a look at the save in the morning and see if I can come up with somrthing helpful.


Ted
 
I would advise you not to sell yourselves short by failing to look closely at you current troop positions and chosen build sequences.

I reviewed your map closely and found that I could produce 12 kamikaze units and 6 extra tanks by selectively changing production and using "short rushing" to boost your output.

Do not forget that the use of "cruise missle" type units against military targets in cities has a significant advantage over artillery because of the preference to target military units instead of wasting 9 out of 10 shots against civilians and improvements that will be destroyed when the city is captured anyway.

Also, to make any offensive that relies on artillery and 2 move tanks effective, you must include a few more settlers in the attack wave to push out the culture envelope. A newly plopped down settler at the frontlines will gain you one more tile of reach that can be filled in with workers who build railroad and let your tanks and artillery reach easily to the next targets. You can cut your assault turns in half by upgrading your techniques here.

You also have a large number of elite tanks and cavalry and these would let you farm 2 or 3 leaders per turn as long as the supply of victims courtesy of the Takeda will hold out. I would not attack and sink any sea transport ships that I find until they the land they cargo of cannon fodder to let me chew them up on the beaches with troops that can reach almost anywhere by rail. No use killing the leader making potential by sinking the transport with a battleship when you could at least use the leaders to make bombers, tanks, or carriers.

You can also use the spy trick of using the sabotage production cost readout to plus the F7 wonder screen to locate the cities where the UN is being built and then back calculate how much production has been accumulated by using the cost as a barometer.

You will have to do some things quickly to regain control of your destiny and regardless of which path you choose or what outcome you achieve, I think you can be confident that it will be a nail biter that you will not soon forget.

Good luck
 
I've had a look at the save and here are some thoughts...

WW seems to be a problem. If it becomes worse then how about revolting to Monarchy or Communism? On the same tack... how about Mobilising?

I've not really put Communism through its paces so perhaps someone who has could offer an opinion (given the size of our empire).

Mobilisation looks as though it might be a good option for us at this time, especially if we decide to take on the Shimazu. We'll be restricted to military builds but that might not be a bad thing :)

It looks as if Space is set to take maybe 3 or 4 Takeda cities next turn leaving 5 or 6 which should fall fairly swiftly soon after. The only problem is Oyama (3 tile island) so maybe we should content ourselves with their mainland holdings :)

Presently we're importing Spices & Gems from the Han, Ivory from the Shimazu so the Shimazu are a better target for us now,

Our military is weak vs the Han & average vs the Shimazu. Another reason to pick on the Shimazu.

Shimazu aren't at war with anyone. Yet another reason to hit Shimazu.

In summary let's get it on with the Shimazu :)

cracker points out the "cruise" missile" nature of the Kamikaze & the need to use our elite units to generate leaders. I hadn't thought of using the sabotage production cost as a means of gauging production progress :)

All in all, I don't think we're as deep in the hole as I first feared but we need to get our heads on straight to win this one.

If I were playing I'd Mobilise, finish off the Takeda (or make peace after 3 or 4 turns) while readying troops & Kamikazes to invade Shimazu. Leaving the Han until the Shimazu were severely crippled.

Just my usual (random) thoughts.


Ted
 
Wow, I just blinked and the next thing I know is that another page is filled with comments.

Poor Space, there are a lot of tough choices here for you.

Thanks a lot to Cracker for the valuable input.
I have never used sabotage before so am not aware about how it works or what info one can get from it. I will try it tonight on some test game :)

Mobilisation: It would work if we are only at war with Takeda and will not attack or be attacked by anyone else. To get rid of mobilisation you have to be at peace with all AIs. It would be a bummer if we did manage to steal / gain fission in time and then could not rush the UN due to mobilisation on. But this might be academic anyway :cry:
So lets mobilise.

I agree with Ted about hitting Shimazu next. We wanted to go there all along anyway.

Question: what does Cracker mean with 'short rushing' :confused:
 
I believe 'short rushing' is rush a build with money when already some shields are in the bin, making it cheaper. But is this a good time to ask whether this view is shared by others.

No need to pity me BTW, I get to choose and act. :D
 
@Shevek: According to the 'pedia Mobilisation allows the building of the UN so no problem there (if the 'pedia is to be trusted :))

@Space: that's my understanding of short rushing. It's probably the way to go with the Kamikazes.

Just so that everyone is aware, Kamikazes will target military units NOT population or improvements when bombarding a city. This means they're ideal for disposing of the elite and veteran defenders. Leaving regulars & conscripts for our elite Tanks to mop up :)


Ted
 
Do we need the Kamikaze more than the money? My feeling is that we probably can stop Shimazu from building the UN using them, but not the Han (and probably Korea too). So our best bet is still building it ourselves and so have to again attempt a steal for which we need money...

Any thoughts?
 
I know this is none of my business, as it's not my game, but I can't help myself.

Short rushing is where you start to build something for one or more turns, then cash rush something of a lower shield value than you really want and then immediately switch to what you do want allowing the city to provide the final shields. This avoids two inherent penalties. Cash rushing to completion from an empty shield bin costs a lot more and also cash rushing to completion with or without shields in the bin means that the cities shield production from that turn is lost.

A simple example would be for a 10 shield city building a Kamikaze. Allow the city to build a settler (say) for one turn, cash rush the settler on the second turn for 80g and allow the city to produce the final 10shields on the same turn. You get a Kamikaze in 2 turns for 20 shields and 80g, as opposed to 4 turns and 40 shields if you build normally, or 2 turns, 20 shields and 120g if you rush to completion after one turn, or 1 turn and 240g (I think) if you rush from an empty shield bin.

So far as sabotage production is concerned... The cost to sabotage production is proportional to the number of shields the target has toward the item in its build queue. The more shields the more it costs. You can find out which cities are building the UN through F7. You could investigate those cities at cost with the realisation that something could happen to change the production rate in the future. Or you can just check how much it would cost to sabotage production (every turn if you like) from which you can gage the rate of shield production in that city, and how close they are to completion. What I don't know is if the shield/gold ratio is fixed or whether it changes with difficulty so I won't quote the values I calculated from a GOTM game not so long ago.

Finally, just a reminder that this is a GOTM scenario and war mobilisation is not possible. I believe the "allows mobilisation" check has been removed for the nationalism tech. Perhaps cracker will confirm.

Hope you don't mind me butting in :)
 
@MB: Thanks for the heads up on Mobilisation not being enabled and the explanation of rushing.


It just shows that it's never too late to learn :)


Ted
 
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