MB4 - GOTM24 Redux [ptw]

[a space oddity]

Yes, I knew there was a catch with the mobilization somewhere, thanks for the reminder MB. (...you, you, .. spy! )

I was thinking about this scenario:
The Shimazu are building the UN in their capital, the Han are not. We gamble on this and keep building our forces and money until our current deals with the Shimazu end (in 5 turns IIRC). We declare and sign in the Han and Korea, who will enter for the low risk high reward on their part. Knowing the AI Shimazu will continue to to build the UN but will not call the vote, being at war with 3 of the remaining civs. We then have 11 turns to capture and raze their capital...

 

[denyd]

Just when I thought I covered all the possible things we could do, along comes 3 I didn't even think of (1-Mobilization 2-Short Rushing Kamikazes 3-MPP with Han,etc).

One thing to think about is where some of the wonders are. If we could claim Smiths and Leo's we'd be able to save some upkeep/upgrade (Tank->Modern Armor) costs.

I noticed we're building marines. In theory if Kamikazes have lethal attack, we might be able to take a coastal Shimazu city on the opening turn of the war (Kamikazes kill all the defenders & marines take the city) and then a couple of transports of tanks move into the city and release those tanks to hit other targets before the Shimazu can react.

As to for the Takeda coastal island, after the next round of city conquests, we might be able to get peace with Takeda for the remaining cities (including the island city). We could then break the peace deal (do really need our rep any more??) and take the last city (to prevent flips), or wait the 20 turns to complete the Takeda erradication project. Either way, that would leave us in a non-war state. We then have the option of revolting to Democracy (faster research / more cash) or moving on the Shimazu immediatly after WW is cleaned up.

I think we also need to act on the Chosogabe soon if we want any piece of what they've got (cities, luxs, wonders). The way the Han are munching them up, they've only got about 10 turns left.

If the UN vote is no longer an issue (we get it, it gets destroyed...) and Han kills Choso and we kill Takeda & Shimazu, that leaves Korea, Han and us. It'll be important to get Korea as an ally at that point unless a 2 on 1 war sounds like fun, so maybe an MPP now might be a good idea.

Whatever you go with Space, it should be fun.

 

[a space oddity]

Actually I was talking about an MA, so you now suggested yet another solution...

 

[DaveShack]

Wow! The last page has been more informative than the entire preceeding year of play! I've never even heard of some of these techniques before now.

Don't recall, can Kami's rebase? What's their range, probably not intercontinental. If not in both cases, can they be loaded on a simple transport, or will we need a carrier eventually?

We can always hope that uranium is scarce. Take a look around, and if anyone has surplus be sure to try to get an embargo against all the UN contenders. Worst case we need to keep some available for ourselves to obtain. (that's assuming it is even needed for the UN, can't remember offhand and can't load the game right now to look)

Sabotage was mentioned, would it be cheaper / easier to sabotage the UN builds? I have no idea what the cost nor odds of sabotage are.

Waiting until the UN is built and then razing the city is pretty diabolical -- just what we need right now.

If we're still alive when I come up, I'll probably need a little coaching. My games are either in the bag by this time or I was dead meat a thousand years ago...

 

[a space oddity]

Err, I played 1 turn tonight, so I'll have to keep you in suspension a while longer...

I did get to try a Kamikaze, though...

 

[a space oddity]

Progress update:

It's 1430AD now, we are strong vs the Shimazu and Takeda is down to 2 cities. I'll accept peace for the island city, keeping the total number of civs at 6. Making 4 votes needed to win if elections are called. So far it still seems Shimazu will win the race, so peace with Takeda this turn, war with Shimazu the next... getting the Han and Korea involved will cost probably so much money that steals are out of the question.

 

[denyd]

At this point Takeda will probably agree to any price for peace. How about starting the Shimazu war before settling with Takeda and adding MA vs Shimazu to the peace terms. That would be one less vote for them.

By the way on the Takeda.

 

[a space oddity]

That's a grand idea, I like it . Too bad I already finished my turns. Here's the report:

OK, switched builds and short-rushed some, like Cracker suggested. In 10 turns we should have a decent number of kamikazes. We can short rush some more later when we have money again (currently 1g).

Checked the sabotage costs:
Han (Shanghai) immediately = 78g
Shimazu (Kagoshima) imm. = 51g

IT
Takeda wants to talk... he only prepared to give up 1 city, not enough.
Our Spices deal comes up, Han wants more money but gets Wines, WM and 17gpt. We need that lux for a couple more turns.
Suzuka Tank -> Tank
Tanabe Bank -> Kamikaze
Nagahama Tank -> Tank
Handa Tank -> Tank
Sasebo Kamikaze -> Kamikaze
Kita-ku Tank -> Tank
Ogaki Kamikaze -> Kamikaze
The Koreans start the UN, as expected.

1420AD - turn 3
OK, the Kamikaze can use the rails as any unit. Matsue seems like a good spot to put them. It can target both Izumi and Hitoyoshi.

Checked the sabotage costs:
Han (Shanghai) immediately = 658g
Shimazu (Kagoshima) imm. = 731g
We need a spy in Korea... it costs 126g and I don't want to risk it at this time.

I use the leader to hurry a Factory in Shizuoka.

Ah, Takeda drafted like crazy in Hitachi.
Use the Kamikaze, watch the nice graphics but.. I see no effect.
We take it anyway without any losses, but no leader also.
Take Tsukuba at the cost of 2 Tanks, but Shibata sees the daylight. [dance]

Move some troops from the former front north to where the action is going to be...

IT
The Shimazu want to renogotiate the Horses deal. Lets drop it..
Nagoya Hydro Plant -> Tank
Ise Tank -> Tank
Kukiyama Tank -> Tank
Shizuoka Factory -> Kamikaze
Komaki Tank -> Tank
Moriyama-too Tank -> Tank

1425AD - turn 4
Shibata hurries a stock exchange in New Azuchi.
Take Utsunoiya, no leader.
Take Kiryu, Nobuo is born.

Checked the sabotage costs:
Han (Shanghai) immediately = 1238g (= +580g)
Shimazu (Kagoshima) imm. = 1411g (= +680g)

I postpone the peace with Takeda for one more turn, I want Kawasaki, they can have Yokosuka.

Check happiness and press enter.

IT
New Koromo Temple -> Wealth
Koromo Bank -> Kamikaze
Kasihihara settler -> Kamikaze
Winegaki Uni -> Tank
Tottori Tank -> Inf
Yonago Market -> Kamikaze
Morayama-ku Tank -> Tank
Ichinomya Kamikaze -> Kamikaze
Kuki Isle Walls -> Wealth
Toyotomi Tank -> Tank
New Azuchi Stock -> Kamikaze
New Handa Kamikaze -> Kamikaze

1430AD - turn 5
Ah, good news, we are now strong vs the Shimazu.
Use Nobuo to hurry a factory in Toyotomi.

We take Kawasaki, no leader.
We take Otawara, no leader.
That's bad since I intent to make peace and enjoy the end of WW-ness. On the other hand if we don't need the steal we can use the money for other things (Kamikazes, upgrades to Transports etc, investigate Kagoshima or Shanghai).
Ah, that looks good, all our citizens are glad the war is over, at (10.0.0) we're making +666gpt.

Checked the sabotage costs:
Han (Shanghai) immediately = 1818g (= +580g)
Shimazu (Kagoshima) imm. = 2111g (= +700g)

IT
Takeda orders us out.
Azuchi Army -> Army
Kobe Marine -> Marine
Ise Tank -> Tank
Kukiyama Tank -> Tank
Suzuka Tank -> Tank
Tanabe Kamikaze -> Kamekaze
Nagahama Tank -> Tank
Hand Tank -> Tank
Kasugai Factory -> Marine
Komaki Tank -> Tank
Hikone Uni -> Inf
Oda Temple -> Harbour
Toyotomi Factory -> Tank
Moriyama-too Tank -> Tank
Moriyama-ku Tank -> Inf
The Shimazu start Mahattan Project

1435AD - turn 6
Checked the sabotage costs:
Han (Shanghai) immediately = 2398g (= +580g)
Shimazu (Kagoshima) imm. = 2811g (= +700g)

I'll spy in Kagoshima for exact info on when to expect the vote (221g):
They get 70 shields per turn, so that makes the 700 gold each turn. Should've guessed.
In 7 turns the UN is ready, so how about a war in 5 turns time...? That'll be 1490AD.

Start joining our native workers in productive cities for even more money.
Sorting out the troops.

IT
Korea now has a city on Choso's island.
Kure Settler -> Settler
Kita-ku Tank -> Tank
Shakasani Inf -> Kamikaze
Kwanaka Bank -> Transport

1440AD - turn 7
A quiet turn actually, fiddled around with short-rushing and workerjoins.

IT
The lux deal with Shimazu ends, we let it.
Nagoya Transport -> Transport
Nara Temple -> Kamikaze
Kukiyama Tank -> Tank
Adachi-ku flips to Takeda, we can take it back when it suits us, too bad it has rubber.
Shizuoka Kamikaze -> Tank
Sakai Battleship -> Kamikaze
Komaki Tank -> Tank
Tehjay Inf -> Inf
New Anzuchi Kamikaze -> Tank
Moriyama-too Tank -> Tank
New Nagoya Tank -> Kamikaze
Kokomo Kamikaze -> Wealth
Oilzuka Kamikaze -> Kamikaze
We get some rioting due to the loss of lux.

1445AD - turn 8
We are now average vs the Han.
Move the lux to 10% to compensate for the loss of Ivory.
Not much to tell really, trying to get the Transports where they will be needed.

IT
The Choso come asking for a peace treaty. Hmm, that's a tough one. I don't know what that'll do WW-wise.
I don't feel like making peace with 'm, they are hardly a threat and will maybe put us in the Han/Korea camp for now. We don't want to aim our troops at them yet. I do have some exposed Transports though.
Arrrgh, I can't make up my mind. In the end I decline, we're at war with Choso just like the rest of the world.
Han takes their capital, our Transports survive.
Yok Revenge Settler -> Kamikaze
Ise Tank -> Tank
Chosi Worker -> Wealth
Koromo Kamikaze -> Kamikaze
Suzaka Tank -> Tank
Tanabe Kamikaze -> Inf
Nagahama Tank -> Tank
Handa Tank -> Tank
Owase Kamikaze -> Kamikaze
Niimi Lib -> Kamikaze
Nanking completes... the Manhattan Project.

1450AD - turn 9
I decide to try and get the Silk city of Niihama. This is a gamble, betting (hoping) that they can't sink our Transport (with the Tank Army, 2 elite Tanks and an Inf).
I'll do the worker turn but will leave the militery moved to the next player. We might want to sign a MPP with both the Han and Korea and declare Shimazu, or wait 1 more turn for the Marine that'll complete that turn.

Most of the Tanks are in Takahashi, the Arties in Yamaguchi, the Transports and Kamikazes in Matsue and
the Marine and Explorers in Okayama.

The price of MPP's with Han and Korea went up, but we need to discuss whether we want to MA or MPP with Korea and Han. I rather favour the MA but we can't sign one until we are at war with Shimazu. We are still strong vs the Shimazu, but they have 14 Kamikazes too, so we will get to experience them from the other side too...

Oh, and Firaxis points: 3012.

and the save.

 

[barbslinger]

This is a must get IMO. Really looking forward to seeing the save later tonight. That city by itself would be fine. We can mop up the rest of the island later. How is our battleship quantity? They will be soely needed in our up coming expeditions.
Looks like Dave will get to buff out the new Takada lands with pop and build more Kamizazi's with them and on to Shimazu. Is a leader for a UN build still mathmatically possible? Did we quit on Fission? I see we're on Syn Fibers, when I thought I had read Fission due in 11 before. I'll see later.
Good job on finishing off Takada cities. Our continent should be safe from attack now. If we have all neccessary infrastructure it may be time to go to mobilization to really crank the tanks and battleships. Good luck Daveshack!

 

[a space oddity]

Yes, I quit Fission, it was only 11 when running on a 100% sci and a big deficit. On min sci it was 43 or something. I think we'll need Mod Armor more than anything right now. A good UN is a razed UN by now. Or where we aiming for diplo?

I tried to gather our naval forces, but the map has some really big distances even with the ocean movement discount.

 

[mad-bax]

Daveshack is UP.

I've edited the first post.

 

[TedJackson]

Looking good Space


Ted

 

[Shevek]

Good turns, Space.
I think we are in a good shape and it now hinges mainly on us being able to destroy the UN and avoid a vote at any cost. It is quite nailbiting.

 

[DaveShack]

Got it. This is going to take a while just to get a handle on where we are and what needs to be accomplished. Also modern warfare turns are inherently slow...

Now, where did I put that PTW disk?

 

[a space oddity]

I very much like the idea of trying to get foothold in the very first turn of war, by using the Kamikazes to empty a coastal city and using Marines to subsequently capture it and fill it with a good force ofunits.
The empty amry could be used to fill with Infs to make the city as well defended as possible and some arties to defend even better.
We need to expect a forcefull first counter strike involving kamikazes too. The first thing to build in the captured city should be a Rax I guess to heal our troops and walls next for when we start using the Arties for offense.
Two more Transports are on their way north, protected by a Battleship.

 

[DaveShack]

OK, starting to get a handle on how to start out my turns, and have some questions.

• Are the settlers being built to found new towns in the spaces between conquored cities, or are they for short rushing?
• Thinking of taking both Choso silk towns to keep the other one out of anyone else's hands. Aside from the turn or so it would take, any problem with doing that?
• how much mobile defense should be left on the main island? To begin with there will be plenty because not enough transports to handle all units, but later?
• Can't determine how much MA's will cost us until the war with Shimazu starts. How much are we prepared to give?

 

[TedJackson]

I think the Settlers might be for a "Raze & Resettle" campaign against the Shimazu. Thus hopefully reducing culture flips.

I can only see 1 Choso Silk town (Niihama). Korea and Han have the others.

I would leave most of the Artillery on the mainland and rely on the production of new Tanks for our counter-offensive strike force - we must be completing at least 4 or 5 Tanks every turn which should be sufficient.

I'm not sure if we even want alliances vs Shimazu as both Korea & Han have forces in the area to snap up some of the spoils.

I think we're in a good position to prosecute a fast, offensive war against Shimazu. Razing & re-settling rather than trying to hold onto everything. The only exception being Kunamoto (Magellan's & Shakespeare's).

Good luck


Ted

 

[a space oddity]

Originally posted by TedJackson
I'm not sure if we even want alliances vs Shimazu as both Korea & Han have forces in the area to snap up some of the spoils.
Ted

I think we'll need at least one to be sure the vote will not be called. We could gamble of course, and the reward might make it something to consider, but if the gamble fails its 'game over'.

 

[TedJackson]

Safety first

You're right Space.


Ted

 

[Shevek]

Hi all,
I just want to let you know that I have lost my internet connection at home and currently only manage to sneak in an occational view of this threat from work.
I hope that I can get it fix before I am up again.