Mentat mechanics

Reconstruction (was political or creative): Enables city to recover from revolution faster, somehow prevents pop slide after capture. Not sure exactly how this would work.

The reason the cities shrink is that they don't have enough food (or, in this case, water). The main way to overcome this would be free water. The other main solution is culture, to pop the borders sooner - but as you noticed it takes a lot of culture if the city is near enemy cities (or even neutral or 3rd party cities - it's any city that has been there long enough to put a significant amount of culture into the area). Additionally, there is the issule of unhappy population - you need enough people to work the plots that you do have. Perhaps +2 water +1 happy +3 culture, with another +1 water, +1 happy, and +2 culture with Sappho (this could be too powerful -there's also the logical question of "where's the extra water coming from?"). This could actually be useful in other places as well, which is why this could also be called a Logistics Expert or or something like that.

There is also another effect that you can counter: additional rebelions due to being within the cultural range of other cities with more culture in this city than you have. Each unit has an iCultureGarrison tag that controls how much it counts for anti-reballion purposes. There is also a tag in the promotions that has an effect on this. Setting iCultureGarrison to be a relatively large value, and possibly giving the unit a free promotion with the relevent setting, would reduce the odds of additional rebellions.
 
Is this getting too small to bother? What else should mentats allow?

I think the Military one is decent and probably the most thematic (apart from having a Science one which we can't make unique enough). If we only had the Military experience giving version of the Mentat I wouldn't mind too much.
 
Well, I guess not so much. I took an extreme example by giving myself a huge stack outside an enemy secondary city and capturing it. It was pop 15 when I took it. It was in revolution for 9 turns and shrank to pop 10 before I could build anything. I put it on build culture with my global slider at +50%, and it expanded a couple of levels quickly, but it still couldn't get cultural control of most of its adjacent tiles for a while. After 5 turns of control I culture bombed with a Great Noble. That still didn't help. The city shrank to pop 5 with almost no nearby tiles controlled, before its water income and pop stabilized.

The mechanic I was trying to find is a "Reconstruction Genius", to stop that huge pop slide. Maybe a simple +cul/turn, or even "culture mini-bomb" does not accomplish this. Can anyone suggest some other mechanic to accomplish this?

It depends on the city, and its relation to other culture.

If you take a city that is off by itself, then you need a very small amount of culture to pop to the second level, and work all the tiles in the BFC. This can be easily achieved by using the "build culture" option, which is what I was referring to; you can quickly get to level 2 or level 3 culture, which will let you control any nearby tiles that do not have heavy enemy culture.

If you take a city that is surrounded by other enemy cities, with their culture, then obviously those neighbors will have very high culture levels, and so territory around your newly captured city will be heavily in enemy culture. You can reduce this somewhat by pillaging (influlence-driven war).

Your city will probably starve down a few levels because many of its water sources are now in enemy territory.

This is as it should be! There should not be an easy way to over-turn many years of cultural investment by the enemy. (except a great artist/noble culture bomb). If you take a single enemy city, you should be able to work only a few of its tiles; the rest remain enemy territory.
Otherwise culture is too weak.
If you want to be able to work the tiles, then you need to capture multiple cities.

A mini-culture bomb instantly ends uprising and will get you out to level 2 borders, which is as much as it should be.
A mini culture bomb ability is still very valuable, both in ending revolts and instantly expanding borders. Whereas a +3 culture per turn is very weak.

Industrial: "mini-hurry" ability for +50 hammers once per 20 turns, more or faster with Sapho. Move it where you need a building or unit finished quickly.

I would either halve it to 10 turns or double it to 100 hammers at a minium. Otherwise you are providing an average per turn 2.5 bonus hammers, which is pretty pathetic.
Or some combination of the two.

50 hammers doesn't really build anything here.

Also; the standard great engineer type bonus hammers can only be used on buildings, not units. Which is fine I think.

Financial: +50% trade route yield or clone the Financial trait of +1 gold on worked plots with yield over 2 gold. Not all that interesting yet.

A possible alternative would be to make it a spice economy specialist, that provides very large tile yields to the harvester improvement.
So you have incentives to ship him around to anywhere that you happen to get a lot of spice blows. Maybe +5 commerce to harvester (when on spice resource).

On a similar line, maybe there could be an Ecologist to synergize with arrakis paradise, that speeds up terraforming locally, and gives a small bonus of some kind for terraformed tiles.

Spymaster: increases spy-catching ability in city, perhaps gives invulnerability to spies, perhaps gives invulnerability to spies for all plots in a radius. Has a small percent chance to generate a new spy unit every turn.

Increased global countersecurity, invulnerability to spies in the city he is in, and a large % boost to espionage point yields?
 
A possible alternative would be to make it a spice economy specialist, that provides very large tile yields to the harvester improvement.
So you have incentives to ship him around to anywhere that you happen to get a lot of spice blows. Maybe +5 commerce to harvester (when on spice resource).

On a similar line, maybe there could be an Ecologist to synergize with arrakis paradise, that speeds up terraforming locally, and gives a small bonus of some kind for terraformed tiles.

I like these ideas.
 
Good news and bad news on the implementation. I have tweaked the xml so that the AI builds mentats, and I have the promotions added. None of the promotions do anything, and actually we haven't really agreed what they should do exactly.

But, I tried several things so that the human player and the AI can choose which one of the promotions to use. I tried giving the unit 2 experience points upon creation. But it seems to keep earning XP so the mentat can have several specialties. That doesn't work. I tried using a random event, like the contract buildings. But that only works because each contract is a separate building; you can't control individual promotions that way.

So it looks like I will have to learn how to build a popup myself. This is easier than a screen. The example I found (this thread) says that radio buttons aren't working, which is too bad because that is the most obvious widget to use. I guess I will use a pulldown, where each choice is one mentat specialty.

One point I have noticed already is that this will be a pretty late game feature. The Mentat Logic tech which enables mentats is fairly deep in the tech tree, and in the autoplays I ran, the earliest any AI civ ever got it is around turn 320.

Do you think we should move it earlier in the tree, or is it OK to have some features only start pretty late in the game?
 
Something to consider; two FFH features which might or might not be doable here; you can block a unit from gaining experience (like Luchiirp golem units) and you can give units a free promotion when purchased or upgraded to (like the Mage and Archmage). These two together could potentially get what you needed.

I think its ok to have the mentat be fairly late game. Ideally it would be midgame rather than lategame, but there's no obvious way to do that without moving it to a weird tech or changing the tech tree.
 
But can you really give a unit different AI depending on its promotions? These different effects are useful in different situations. An ecologist is useful only if you have terraforming and fresh water. A reconstruction specialist wants to go to newly conquered cities. An industrial one wants to move around low-hammer frontline cities instantly building things. The happy/health one wants to go to to your largest cities. A spice harvester one wants to go to cities with lots of spice resources in BFC. These are all mutually incompatible.

So you have to think of how you're going to get the AI to work before deciding how to implement, I think.
 
I have bit another idea of mentat implementation (i think its just great haha)

First lets remeber FFH and spells like inspiration and courage. Achieving certain promotion, unit can "build" some bonus to city (in form of building), that addi9ng some stuff.

Mentat is overseer, related to homeworld in some way.

Now lets take example for Ordos (civ i am playing with now).
Mentat may have same parameters like it now (2 str, national unit), but is equal to arcane units to FFH (slowly gain xp), and have list of upgradeable promotions based on civ (mentats were kinda home world related).

So lets say List of Ordos mentat promotions aviable on lvl ups (example):
Ordos main paths : Money, Army, Espionage.
So we have:
Basic
Advanced
Improved
Great
Legendary
==================
as levels (1-5)

Then :
For military (Military Personnel Instructage
Basic Military Personnel Overseeing: Constructs Basic Military Personnel Overseeing in city which is +1 XP to military units built in city (Building like ability, which can be "casted" like courage in ffh, and remains while Mentat overseeing certain city. )
Advanced Military Personnel Training Skill : + 2 XP +5% military unit construction, replalaces any other military overseeing,
Improved : +3 xp +10% military unit construction.
....
.....
Legendary Military Personnel .... +5 xp to units, +20% faster military unit prod, +1 GP (GG )
and so on.

Infiltration:
Covert Operations Organization :
Basic +1 EP
Improved +5% Esp +2 EP and so on

Same for economic.

LEgendary should add 1 GP in certain field (if economic skill then + 1 GM)

For different races types of mentat promotions should be different (Water bonuses, Happiness+Culture (united), Hammers, GP, Science), in any combination of 3 per civ.

It will add flavour to civs.

There should be also option to assasinate mentat in city.

So far we have 7 lines of lets call it Mentat Skills, which he can use to oversee certain city (3 per civ):
Money
Army
Espionage
Water+Health
Happiness+Culture
Hammers
Science,

with 5 levels each,
Basic
Advanced
Improved
Great
Legendary

and 7x5 promotions and buildings that need not graphics to implement those

Ordos:
Wealth, Espionage, Military

Harkonnen:
Production, Military, Happiness+Culture

Ecaz:
Happiness+Culture, Wealth, Water+Health

Ix
Science, Production , Military

Atreides:
Happines+Culture, Water+Health, Military

BTl:
Espionage, Production, Science

BG:
Hapiness+Culture, Water+Health, Science

Corrino:
Hapiness+Culture, Wealth, Military.
 
I don't think its worth adding this much complexity to just a single unit.

I think a single trait for each mentat is fine.
 
On mentats i have simple and good (seems to me) idea:

As there few types of mentats, mentat unit should have 1 ability (1 button added, works exactly like inspiration spell/building in ffh, without building graphics, mentat should remain in city, otherwise building wears off). , named like Mentat Quarter , or Mentat Overseeing or Mentat Seat.
Then depends of of type (there are few), by "casting" this ability in city it build one of (6?) buildings, depends of mentat speciality.

Each building will called like Sientific Mentat Overseeing or similar, and provide:
mechanics 1: +points +%output +GP of specialization
Example: Scientific Mentat : +4 beakers +20% science +3 Scientist GPP (mentat generating gp seems reasonable).
Economic Mentat: +4 solaris +20% income +3 Merchant GPP
numbers are for example, perhaps need tweaking/ balancing, but hight bonuses seems good for mentats/late tech/requirement of 1 offworld contract resource
mechanics 2 way: Building provide 1 free specialist in certain field and +20% to city output in that field. (thats bit different because have more synergies with SE)

So need just 1 button, 6-7 buildings that not require building graphics/icon. (only xml add), and some minor code to link type of mentat to effect of his "casting" (creating Building type that depends of Specialty promotion)

These are good ideas, similar to what we have earlier in the thread. One key difference is that I don't think you need a button. If the mentat is in the city, the effect should automatically happen. The only drawback is what happens if you have two mentats in the city, and you specifically want one of them to have an effect. For game balance, only one mentat per city is allowed; think of this as the city governor.
 
Iss it possible to assign those 6-7 buildings (effects) as different spells but same bulding > i mean thay will be different spell ( mentat overseeing) in some code, but effect will be same building from list. (few buildings that counts as same, but have different effects and aviable only after certain "spell" is cast)
Like they same building with different effects, and when one is built you just cant build another .
And i think implementation of button makes things easier. This also fix issues when Contract of Sapho juice being captured. Then you should not be able to cast that thing because Mentats juice which enchances his mind is lost.

Another cheat type is to create 2 buildings - 1 is mentat ovberseeing and another one for effect.
 
Iss it possible to assign those 6-7 buildings (effects) as different spells but same bulding.

I guess there are lots of possible ways to do it. If there is only one building type, and the code has to check which mentat type is there, then there is no real point to the building. Using many different buildings seems to mean less code, at least so far.
 
I guess there are lots of possible ways to do it. If there is only one building type, and the code has to check which mentat type is there, then there is no real point to the building. Using many different buildings seems to mean less code, at least so far.

I( think best way to implement it is to cheat by creating 2 building types.

Building A - Is mentat overseeing. Build when Mentat enter city. Removed when he goes out (or button cast option - whatever)
Build B - is effect , which depends on Mentats promotion. Prequisite for it - Mentat Overseeing, and it being built in same time. It is also removed when mentat leaves city.

Code should check Mentat Overseeing building when another mentat entering city.
If there is already building, nothing is being built.
If 1st mentat leaves city - then code just check for presence, and if there is mentat it should build appopriate effect. That will require each turn check.

If IfMentatPresent = true then Check Effect else { RemoveEffect, Mentat type := 0}

CheckEffect {
If Effect = false, then EffectType := MentatType, BuildEffect(EffectType), Effect := true // 1st turn of Mentat entering city.
If Effect = true, then { // if there is already effect building
if EffectType = MentatType then Nothing, // if effect matches one of mentats then no change
else RemoveEffect, EffectType := MentatType, BuildEffect(EffectType)}} //if they not match then rebuilding effect

RemoveEffect {
Effect := false
RemoveEffctBuilding}




i dont know python just used logic language , (i far as i remember basic and c++ from old times).
hope that clear enough
 
Considering what we are doing with Mentats I found this quote from Children of Dune ironic:

Above all else, the mentat must be a generalist, not a specialist. It is wise to have decisions of great moment monitored by generalists. Experts and specialists lead you quickly into chaos. They are a source of useless nit-picking, the ferocious quibble over a comma. The mentat-generalist, on the other hand, should bring to decision-making a healthy common sense. He must not cut himself off from the broad sweep of what is happening in his universe. He must remain capable of saying: "There's no real mystery about this at the moment. This is what we want now. It may prove wrong later, but we'll correct that when we come to it." The mentat-generalist must understand that anything which we can identify as our universe is merely a part of larger phenomena. But the expert looks backward; he looks into the narrow standards of his own specialty. The generalist looks outward; he looks for living principles, knowing full well that such principles change, that they develop. It is to the characteristics of change itself that the mentat-generalist must look. There can be no permanent catalogue of such change, no handbook or manual. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself: "Now what is this thing doing?"

The Mentat Handbook

I think we'll fudge that one. ;)
 
Good news and bad news on the implementation. I have tweaked the xml so that the AI builds mentats, and I have the promotions added. None of the promotions do anything, and actually we haven't really agreed what they should do exactly.

In the second Dune Wars succession game (running in 1.6.5 I think) the only mentat boost that works is the military one. Regardless of which specialisation I choose we got the military bonus. Is that because that is the only one currently implemented?

Going through the specialisations I also made some comments about which seemed more useful and likely to be chosen. Basically I think that the civic one is the least useful because I find the happy and healthy caps are rarely hit in late game what with all the resources available and the low city size.

Here are some thoughts regarding possible “specialisations” that I find interesting. First off a disclaimer, I very little idea what would be easy to code and what would not. Some ideas could be way more trouble than they are worth.

1)A organisational mentat that duplicates a forbidden palace mechanic so you could move it around to reduce upkeep costs as the empire expands.

2)Like Ahriman said, a “ecologist” mentat that could increase the terraforming rate of squares in the cities BFC. That could then be moved around as the squares finish terraforming.. Another possibility (does not fit in current mechanic as I understand it) would be to have the mentat be like a mobile well so that you could spread fresh water to parts of your empire that are outside of your cities and away from wells. This would let you go for a terraforming victory with less total land. Which is nice because it seems that currently the easiest way to terraform the planet approaches a domination/conquest victory.

3)A logistics mentat that would act like an airport. Would allow more aircraft to stay in the city as well as provide airlift capability (probably more than one unit per turn). This would be useful to move forward in a war, get it into a city a bit behind the front as a quick forward air base and then airlift defensive troops into the captured city.

Thinking about the problem of “specialisation”, what if each mentat could do any of the options, but can only implement one at once. This maintains the balance of not being too powerful, but also maintains the fluff to an extent. The idea would be that the mentat has the ability to put their massive computational abilities to help any task, but they have to focus their time on one thing at once.

Finally, in the succession game, I encountered a problem with the current mentat mechanic in which regardless of which specialisation was chosen the mentat would generate the military mentat building.
 
The military-only mentat problem is not only 1.6.5, it's also in 1.7.0.6.
 
The military-only mentat problem is not only 1.6.5, it's also in 1.7.0.6.

Thanks for letting us know. There are several steps in using a mentat; can you tell me how far along you can get?

1. When you build the mentat, you should get an "event" type popup where you can select the speciality from a list.

2. When you see the mentat unit in the game, it should have a promotion with an icon that matches the specialty. For example, the finance mentat has a promotion icon which looks like a little stock market graph.

3. When the mentat starts a turn in a city, there should be a building in the city with the specialty name, such as "Mentat Financial".

4. The effect listed in the hover help, such as +10% gold, should take effect in the city.

How much of this is working for you?

Do you have logging and python exceptions turned on in your civilizationiv.ini file? The most likely problem is that one of these steps is generating a python exception, and you aren't seeing it because these debug aids are not activated.
 
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