Mercenaries

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I am interested to know what makes normal soldiers more heroic than mercenaries.
If it just was a cheap punch line, don't hesitate to say so.

The fact that they're doing the same (or even more dangerous) work for far less pay. The fact that they're fighting for their country rather than personal gain.

A good soldier loves his country. A good mercenary is not nationalistic, and theoretically, would even go to war against his own country, supposing the other side paid well enough.
 
The fact that they're doing the same (or even more dangerous) work for far less pay. The fact that they're fighting for their country rather than personal gain.

A good soldier loves his country. A good mercenary is not nationalistic, and theoretically, would even go to war against his own country, supposing the other side paid well enough.

No, a good soldier doesn't love his country, because that has nothing to do with being a soldier. Being a soldier is a trade just like anything else.
 
No, a good soldier doesn't love his country, because that has nothing to do with being a soldier. Being a soldier is a trade just like anything else.

Surely many a soldier has joined the army and gone to war over the perception that it was for "love of country". The rights and wrongs and even misguidedness of this are up for debate. But I really don't think it's realistic to say that "love of country" has nothing to do with being a soldier and that it is essentially opted for in lieu of a career as a plumber.
 
Surely many a soldier has joined the army and gone to war over the perception that it was for "love of country". The rights and wrongs and even misguidedness of this are up for debate. But I really don't think it's realistic to say that "love of country" has nothing to do with being a soldier and that it is essentially opted for in lieu of a career as a plumber.

Yes, some soldiers have volunteered for some ideal/idea or other, but that is not essential for being a soldier. Others have done it for power, employment and/or necessity.
 
Phrossack said:
If Executive Outcomes had stayed, there'd be a lot fewer orphans, paupers, and amputees in Sierra Leone right now.

If SWAPOL-COIN and the 32s hadn't exist there would be a lot less torture victims in Namibia. EO was not comprised of nice people.
 
Surely many a soldier has joined the army and gone to war over the perception that it was for "love of country". The rights and wrongs and even misguidedness of this are up for debate. But I really don't think it's realistic to say that "love of country" has nothing to do with being a soldier and that it is essentially opted for in lieu of a career as a plumber.
Well, if we could Ven Diagram it, there are people who love their country, there are soldiers, and there are soldiers who love their country.

While lot's of soldiers do it for those reasons, others do it for desire for glory, payment, travel to new places, meet interesting people and kill them, that sort of thing.

While lots of soldiers love their country, there's lots of very good soldiers who will kill you in interesting ways who will take it or leave it.
 
The fact that they're doing the same (or even more dangerous) work for far less pay. The fact that they're fighting for their country rather than personal gain.

A good soldier loves his country. A good mercenary is not nationalistic, and theoretically, would even go to war against his own country, supposing the other side paid well enough.

I don't buy it. I don't buy for a second that more than maybe 10% (or 20% in militaristic countries like the USA) of all people who join the military do so becasue they want to serve their country. I think most today do it simply for lack of alternatives or to have the state pay for their education.
 
Okay, I am going to dissect your response a bit (and on the way I will derail this thread a bit, if you mind that, I am fine with transferring this to a new thread). I hope you don't mind.
The fact that they're doing the same (or even more dangerous) work for far less pay.
Doing dangerous work for less pay than possible seems a strange criteria. Are you sure that is it?
The fact that they're fighting for their country rather than personal gain.
Ah that seems more plausible. I guess relatively cheap dangerous work only adds to that.
So there are actually two statements in this sentence. That soldiers fight for a higher cause (and not the benefits) and that this higher cause makes them heroic because it is "for their country".
The former: Do you think this is a reasonable claim in light of the fact that soldiers tend to notoriously be those kind of people who have the most to gain by being soldiers? I am thinking of people with not so great job prospects (it is a common criticism that those with the least means fight "for the country"). Moreover I think of programs like financing of college education and other nice benefits. Any honest recruiter will tell you that those benefits are not about simply "honoring the heroic" (while that of course is a nice side-kick justification, like it is also nice to justify greed with the well-being of the economy) but about making people see personal gain in being a soldier so enough "fight for their country". I am not denying that many may also see the higher cause in doing so (just as many non-soldiers see a higher justification in those benefits rather than mere recruiting tools - and there my former analogy doesn't hold up well I readily concede). But to claim that is what clearly differentiates ordinary soldiers from mercenaries is to not fight for personal gain simply seems - frankly - nonsense. (So I suppose I concur with GoodSarmatian.)

Let's get to the latter part of your statement, the higher purpose: "for their country". Aren't mercenaries often also serving your country by doing their job? They also work for the US government and in general make the streets of Baghdad more secure and in general help the Iraq to develop. In deed, many people put up a struggle which serves your country well. Wage slaves. Entrepreneurs. Etcetera etcetera. Are they also heroes? Or what is the distinction here? That ordinary soldiers get their orders directly from government officials? So do clerks. So what differentiates them from clerks? Ah there it is - dangerous work and physical violence towards non-US-citizens. But oh that also applies to mercenaries. So I suppose it is a combination of dangerous work and direct obedience to government officials that makes soldiers fight "for their country" in at least a very special way. I already implied that dangerous alone is a unconvincing criteria and I clarify that it rather can merely serve to enhance what is already virtuoso.

So what is so virtuous about (under considerable danger and discomfort) taking direct orders from government officials to exert physical violence on non-US citizens? What about this act makes one particular "heroic"?
Unless I am missing some crucial distinction here. If so, please explain it to me.
A good soldier loves his country. A good mercenary is not nationalistic, and theoretically, would even go to war against his own country, supposing the other side paid well enough.
I just leave that because I don't think you want to argue that heroic simply means "He is on our side".
 
I've never been satisfied with the definition of mercenaries, either, but operating on the generally understood definition of same is reasonable in the context of this thread.
Well, even in the modern era it's not very well defined. Look at the Black and Tans or the Freikorps - where they regular soldiers serving in an auxiliary formation, or were they mercenaries employed by the state?
 
No, a good soldier doesn't love his country, because that has nothing to do with being a soldier. Being a soldier is a trade just like anything else.

We need our idealism to shield us from reality, at times! Men in my trade at least have the boast - incomprehensible to civilians - that we do the toughest, most dangerous job of anyone, in the worst conditions of anyone, for the least pay and recognition of anyone; but it does sometimes take the satisfaction that your job is worth doing to make you put up with having to move again or having civilians give you dirty looks and pick fights (the paratrooper's curse, unfortunately, is that civilians know he's hard and think they're harder) on a night out.

I don't buy it. I don't buy for a second that more than maybe 10% (or 20% in militaristic countries like the USA) of all people who join the military do so becasue they want to serve their country. I think most today do it simply for lack of alternatives or to have the state pay for their education.

I think most of it isn't neccessarily straight-out patriotism, but more that you want to be a soldier rather than work as (say) a brickie. We take quite a bit of pride in that; your job and your regiment become your identity, and to be honest I think a lot of young men join up because they associate being a soldier with looking sharp and being self-assured and able to handle oneself in all situations, and think that they'd quite like to be like that, as well.
 
We need our idealism to shield us from reality, at times! Men in my trade at least have the boast - incomprehensible to civilians - that we do the toughest, most dangerous job of anyone, in the worst conditions of anyone, for the least pay and recognition of anyone; but it does sometimes take the satisfaction that your job is worth doing to make you put up with having to move again or having civilians give you dirty looks and pick fights (the paratrooper's curse, unfortunately, is that civilians know he's hard and think they're harder) on a night out.

Yes, idealism can also be there. :)
 
If SWAPOL-COIN and the 32s hadn't exist there would be a lot less torture victims in Namibia. EO was not comprised of nice people.

What makes 32 more evil than any other SADF unit? Their work seems to have primarily been taking on FAPLA battalions in Angola (as at Savate) or tracking guerrillas in the bush and attacking them (Operation Super). From what I gleaned from Piet Nortje's book on his battalion, they were unpopular because their mainly Angolan composition got labeled as mercenaries (who are all apparently inherently evil) that fought an unpopular war, was largely secretive, and was deployed to SA to keep the peace during some rather nasty times in kwaZulu-Natal. The ANC despised them for it, and getting ambushed in Phola Park was spun as "the racist government's using mercenaries against us!".


To be fair, the government was obviously extremely racist and was deploying troops of foreign ancestry against its citizens, but I've yet to see evidence that the Buffaloes were as nasty as some say. Obviously, people who wage nonstop war for over a decade and then sign up for more are not going to be saints, and EO fought mainly for money and because it was their life, but I think 32 got a lot of unfair criticism.

Edit:Typing on the Kindle is very difficult and leaves me unable to edit much.

This all being said, I really would like to see your evidence, because I'm always trying to learn more about modern African warfare after finishing 32 Battalion
 
Yes, some soldiers have volunteered for some ideal/idea or other, but that is not essential for being a soldier. Others have done it for power, employment and/or necessity.
Let's not forget taking the place of a child of a rich person back in the good old days, or the use of student deferments not all that long ago. I don't think it is a a coincidence that no major war has ever been adequately staffed by recruits.
 
Our wars? Are you referring to the US? Did you forget about Vietnam, which was clearly the last major war? There likely would have even been a draft for the Iraq War except for the military grossly underestimating how many soldiers were needed and then chronically abusing the Reserves and the National Guard.
 
Okay, I am going to dissect your response a bit (and on the way I will derail this thread a bit, if you mind that, I am fine with transferring this to a new thread). I hope you don't mind.

Yes, as a matter of fact I mind, and I'm going to ask a mod to close the thread.

Doing dangerous work for less pay than possible seems a strange criteria. Are you sure that is it?

Ah that seems more plausible. I guess relatively cheap dangerous work only adds to that.
So there are actually two statements in this sentence. That soldiers fight for a higher cause (and not the benefits) and that this higher cause makes them heroic because it is "for their country".
The former: Do you think this is a reasonable claim in light of the fact that soldiers tend to notoriously be those kind of people who have the most to gain by being soldiers? I am thinking of people with not so great job prospects (it is a common criticism that those with the least means fight "for the country"). Moreover I think of programs like financing of college education and other nice benefits. Any honest recruiter will tell you that those benefits are not about simply "honoring the heroic" (while that of course is a nice side-kick justification, like it is also nice to justify greed with the well-being of the economy) but about making people see personal gain in being a soldier so enough "fight for their country". I am not denying that many may also see the higher cause in doing so (just as many non-soldiers see a higher justification in those benefits rather than mere recruiting tools - and there my former analogy doesn't hold up well I readily concede). But to claim that is what clearly differentiates ordinary soldiers from mercenaries is to not fight for personal gain simply seems - frankly - nonsense. (So I suppose I concur with GoodSarmatian.)

No, it is not nonsense. Mercenaries get paid far more, and yes, that's even with military benefits being taken into account. You have not provided a single fact or statistics for your claim, rather, just rambling.



Let's get to the latter part of your statement, the higher purpose: "for their country". Aren't mercenaries often also serving your country by doing their job? They also work for the US government and in general make the streets of Baghdad more secure and in general help the Iraq to develop. In deed, many people put up a struggle which serves your country well. Wage slaves. Entrepreneurs. Etcetera etcetera. Are they also heroes? Or what is the distinction here? That ordinary soldiers get their orders directly from government officials? So do clerks. So what differentiates them from clerks? Ah there it is - dangerous work and physical violence towards non-US-citizens. But oh that also applies to mercenaries. So I suppose it is a combination of dangerous work and direct obedience to government officials that makes soldiers fight "for their country" in at least a very special way. I already implied that dangerous alone is a unconvincing criteria and I clarify that it rather can merely serve to enhance what is already virtuoso.

Mercenaries do not have to work for America. They can work for anyone who hires them. If your job is to defend shipping cargo from Pirate attacks, you're a mercenary. And yes, even the ones that are employed by the U.S government are much different from soldiers. Their contracts are generally much shorter, with their pay being much more. Please stop ignoring the facts.

So what is so virtuous about (under considerable danger and discomfort) taking direct orders from government officials to exert physical violence on non-US citizens? What about this act makes one particular "heroic"?
Unless I am missing some crucial distinction here. If so, please explain it to me.

I just leave that because I don't think you want to argue that heroic simply means "He is on our side".

The fact that they're risking their lives for very little pay should tell you everything.
 
Our wars? Are you referring to the US? Did you forget about Vietnam, which was clearly the last major war? Back then, nobody in the US military wanted to go to Vietnam after 1966 or so except for a few die hards. There likely would have even been a draft for the Iraq War except for the military grossly underestimating how many soldiers were needed and then chronically abusing the Reserves and the National Guard.

My avatar is a British general. My location is 'Perfidious Albion'. My CUT is a British regimental motto. I insist on spelling 'colour' and 'honour' correctly. Do you really think I'm referring to American wars?
 
Alrght. I'll bite. What major war has Britain fought since WWII that required conscription?
 
I wonder if the FFL could be considered a mercenary army.
 
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