Middle East discussion
- Thread starter Mouthwash
- Start date
If I were debating people who made rational cases for their opinions, and actually responded to my arguments rather than making generalizations or bare assertions, I might be tempted to be politer (you can see how I tried to calmly argue with Baal, and then when he started ranting about discrimination and demographic threat I gave up). It's incredibly frustrating to have to drum it into people's heads.
Ajidica
High Quality Person
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2006
- Messages
- 22,482
Forgive me, the wretched sinner I am, but I perceived Lord_Baal to lay out his points and arguments very well and make a good case for them.
PROTIP: If you are polite when talking to someone, they are more inclined to listen and be charitable to your viewpoints. Why should the reader be obliged to respect your opinions when you cannot go three sentences without insulting them?
PROTIP: If you are polite when talking to someone, they are more inclined to listen and be charitable to your viewpoints. Why should the reader be obliged to respect your opinions when you cannot go three sentences without insulting them?
Then you must have read something else of his.
Recall that I did try. It's very hard to do so when the people you talk to don't seem to be interested in analyzing or discussing the subject, but prefer preteen diatribes with a feeble connection to reality.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
I got it from Bill3000. But I also have to explain what Onanism is.
This is actually your biggest problem with AAR, Mouthwash. Approach people politely and patiently with an open mind, rather than an attitude about having to stoop down and educate these poor fools on
You are a perfect demonstration. Rather than quote my statements and attempt to respond, you simply concurred with someone posting against me while not mustering up the slightest criticism of my attitude for me to respond to.
Oh, right. OK, should prb stop derailing the thread now.
But I'd like to point out that there may be some merit in the claim that I can be rude or insulting. I probably regret to some degree a good fifty percent of the posts I make, and around eighty percent of the threads. But to be honest, I regret now that I wasn't even more forceful and critical in regard to Baal's post, as it also happens to be rather offensive to my family and country.
SeekTruthFromFacts
King
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2009
- Messages
- 670
Every Israeli politician should study hard the cases of the Rhodesians and Afrikaners and decide which one they want to be their future - or have a concrete plan for avoiding them.
Why don't we look at what I said?
I never once claimed that Vietnam wasnt' an issue before Kennedy. I said that Vietnam became an issue in and of itself. Vietnam was an election issue for Johnson. It was not one for Kennedy. How can that be hard to wrap your head around?
How long can you effectively occupy a foreign state with foreign nationals who outnumber you in the current global climate? Especially when your own state is itself inhabited by numerous members of that foreign nationality? If any state is going to find out,it will be Israel. The US seems to have decided on nine years in Iraq and that is without the demographic issues facing Israel.
What could Jordan or Iraq possibly gain from eliminating Israel? It is far more useful to use Israel as a scapegoat than it would be to actually eliminate it from existence. Iran couldn't attempt to incite anti-Semitism to win allies in the region if Israel didn't exist, to give just one example.
I am passingly familiar with the Westphalian model, thank you.
Moer familiar than yourself, apparently. All states are artificial, my friend. And nationalism exists in Libya and Iraq, it's just not as prevalent as in other states, largely due to regional and sectarian issues. If bloody Pakistan can develop a home-grown nationalism, anywhere can.
What makes an Arab disloyal? There's problem one. How many Arabs can Israel expel before even the US withdraws its support in disgust? That's problem two. How can Israel overcome the logistical hurdles in expelling numerous Arabs, many of them Israeli citizens? That's problem three. How does Israel overcome a potential state-wide intifada if it even makes the attempt? That's problem four.
Demographics are always manipulated by political organisations. Regardless, the obvious demographic trend is favouring an eventual Jewish-minority Israel. Whether that happens in fifty years or one hundred is of no major consequence; Israel should be preparing for the eventuality.
Incidentally, Australia is preparing for the day when people of Asian-descent outnumber those of European-descent, albeit poorly, and our situation is nowhere near as complex or tense as Israel's.
So? Since when are Moroccans Arabs?
My, my. Somebody missed their nap today.
Strawman is strawman.
But Israel doesn't give equal rights to non-Jews, does it? Incidentally, I would be interested in seeing this study you mention.
Please do. Be sure not to skip anything. We certainly wouldn't want you to leave out a few steps in your thought process while you descend into an inflammatory rant about one line in a post only tangentially-related to the main topic or anything.
I wasn't actually discussing Mizrahi Jews in particular - it's telling that you think Mizrahi Jews and Arab Jews are the same thing though - but yes, this is true. Your point?
You don't support the right of return, then? Many Arabs, especially Palestinians, support it in its entirety, and that certainly doesn't mean they'll want to return to the West Bank if they or their ancestors were from the East Bank. Of course, with the border separating communities from their livelihoods smiply electing to move to the West Bank wouldn't really solve the issue anyway.
Do you think England could ever exist with a Catholic majority?
It's a truism that those who are teh most wise are often those who make the fewest claims to wisdom.
"Internet Asperghers" needs to be a recognised mental health condition, now!
You are entirely correct. My post was a rant. I am well-known for my intense hatred of the Jewish people and the state of Israel on these boards. You got me.
Only an idiot would say that
.Didn't even make it one sentence. I try to be very polite when discussing things on these boards, even when participating in discussions with people I manifestly dislike or on topics I vehemently disagree with a person over. Including with the following poster.
Strangely, since I probably spend more time in WH than anyone, except possibly Domen, I have no idea what "onanism" is.I got it from Bill3000. But I also have to explain what Onanism is.
Cheezy is correct. He and I have had our fair share of arguments in the past, mainly over the diplomatic manouevrings immediately preceding and in the early stages of WWII. We got over them, discuss the situation politely whenever the topic comes up and usually agree-to-disagree when we can't actually sway the other's opinion. Cheezy's opinion has certainly mellowed since we first met online (which I probably can't take any credit for, but I'm going to anyway) and mine has altered somewhat as well (this Cheezy can take all the credit for), largely because we avoided flinging our own faeces at one another. Though I did have to spend a couple of hours cleaning between the keys on my keyboard with cotton buds.
This is probably the funniest thing I've seen on CFC since Domen called me a communist.
I'd suggest it. That fit of absent-mindedness was very entertaining though.
If you regret your posts so much, perhaps you should think more before you post?
In what way was my post (you were quite forceful, but in no way critical, by the way) offensive to you, your family and country?
They certainly should. Israel is nowhere near as bad as South Africa by any means, but that doesn't mean Israel should simply ignore the fate of states that have been in similar positions to theirs in the past.
Thanks. Also, ew.
No, Israeli politicians are already beginning to speak out. I can say with 99% percent confidence that Israel will never tolerate becoming a binational state. I lived there; I'm Jewish, and I know. Nations threatened with their existence do not cease resisting to global political pressure to let themselves die. Even Finkelstein admitted the right of return was impossible for precisely that reason.
They might use it as a scrapegoat, but believe me, Jordan would feel a lot more comfortable if all those Palestinians returned to whence they came, and I'm sure Syria or Egypt wouldn't mind the sudden breathing space and potential sphere of influence they could have. Geopolitics usually take priority to regular ol' politics.
Than why can't you apply it here?
For course anywhere can. Often groups under threat and forced to integrate out of common interest can develop nationalities of their own, like the Palestinians did. This hasn't exactly proven successful in Libya, Syria, or Iraq. In fact the Arabs seem to do better under the leadership of the king rather than a mere despot, because loyalty to a royal family isn't really nationalism in the sense that Europe has it.
Fairly obvious. Do they identify as Israeli? No? Then they go; as many as it takes.
Existential threat, as a propaganda factor, is quite different from occupation. In fact certain countries might actually identify with it and see it as justified (seeing as most countries recognize Israel as a Jewish state). Not to mention the Israel lobby (now increasingly dominated by conservative and more religious Jews) will always be there. That doesn't imply that the US will always be friends with Israel, but there'll still be that spin. I sincerely doubt that Israel will wind up like South Africa if it expels Arabs given what a critical strategic asset it is. Imagine if the Chinese were becoming the majority in Thailand. Do you think they would make the country a pariah state by getting rid of them?
Logistical? What do you mean? Remember that a million Arabs were expelled in 1948. Yes, there were famines, but I would assume that with the vastly greater resources Israel has now, they could feed them, transport them out, and even let them take a few belongings.
The same way any country deals with internal ethnic factions resisting the state. Either brutal crackdown or expulsion (probably the latter, because if they're expelling Arabs anyway, the violent ones might as well go, too). You're assuming that the Arabs will almost be as numerous as the Jews by the time this happens. They will not. I guarantee that no sane Israeli Prime Minister will allow them to climb even to 30% of the population.
The only argument you've mustered up thus far is that Arabs will, for sure, become the majority in Israel because right now they happen to be on the right side of the demographic trend?
Well, let's see. West Bank settlers tend to be religious and view it as their duty to have as many kids as possible, and as a result they have much higher fertility rates than the Arabs. Let's say all 500,000 of those Jews suddenly come back to Israel proper from the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Use your imagination.
Even disregarding scenarios like massive immigration to Israel by religious Jews looking to halt the demographic shift (which seems likely, based on my experiences), I can't wrap my head around what is so inevitable about the Arab demographic threat.
Do these Asians represent another nationality with a claim in Australia? If so, I'd be worried. But I would assume that they don't.
So? Since when are Moroccans Arabs?
Most Moroccans speak Moroccan Arabic (so does my family). They outnumber the Berber population and think of themselves as Arab. You can be forgiven for being ignorant of the cultural and ethnic heritage of Morocco- but not for not noticing that Morocco happens to be part of the Arab League.
Meanness is not always a result of sleep deprivation. Life tip.
Would you like me to quote you where you said that Israel mistreats Jewish Arabs?
Don't they? I'm waiting for you to provide evidence to the contrary, dear sir.
Look the studies up, Google works. That's how I found them.
Mizrahi is not a commonly used term; in Israel we just use Sephardi as a general term for any Jew of Middle Eastern, North African, and Spanish ethnicity. Arabic isn't only an ethnicity, it's a cultural and linguistic heritage, so I don't really understand what "Arab Jew" means for you.
No, they'll be forced to move if it becomes necessary, but they'll be able to integrate. Link does not work, but if you're referring to the wall, allow me to point out that it was originally supposed to swallow up 20% of the West Bank, but due to legal action by the Palestinian communities it was reduced to 8%.
I don't recall Catholicism being a national identity. You can't undo history and pretend that the Palestinians aren't Palestinians.
I don't actually think that my arguments were extremely difficult to understand, but whatever.
I love how detractors of Israel tend to bring up anti-Semitism far more than defenders of it, regardless of the stereotype.
Is this the time to remind Cheezy of his own response to my dismissal of Chomsky? I don't have a link, but it wasn't something that would give him the moral authority to lecture me on debate conduct.
By binational I assume you mean that Arabs will becaome a plurality. The right of return may be politically unfeasible, but it's not going away, and Israel is never going to solve the Palestinian issue until the right of return is dealt with.
That's a good point. But then what? Jordan is faced with a rather strong Palestine on its border, instead of a rather strong Israel? That's might actually be worse for Jordanian security, given the territorial boundaries of the former-Transjordan and the somewhat intermittent popularity of the monarchy.
Israel has traditionally been relatively friendly with Jordan, going so far as to assist during Black September. Jordan has only really entered conflict with Israel when it is all-but forced by circumstances to do so; in the Six-Day War Jordan thought that Egypt and Syria were about to destroy Israel and thought it should get involved before its not-quite-belligerent neighbours got all the glory (Nasser was obviously lying about the course of the war) and in 1948 Jordan was only doing what every other Arab state was doing, and had an ulterior motive besides.
Also, let's be realistic here; even if Israel granted the right of return tomorrow and actually subsidised returning Palestinians, plenty would remain in Jordan. That minority alone would be large enough to potentially destabilise Jordanian politics.
Excuse me? What about my argument is not consistent with the Westphalian system?
Are you implying that there is something inherent in Arab culture that makes them better suited to monarchical rule? The idea of Palestinian nationality pre-dates the creation of the Mandate, if that's what you're implying.
Leaving aside the abhorrence of such a policy on moral grounds, this would also disqualify a not-inconsiderable portion of the Jewish population of Israel. It is also perfectly possible to identify as Israeli and still strongly disagree with that state's policies.
True enough.
You can always find any state willing to justify the behaviour of another state, no matter how abhorrent, for geopolitical or geostrategic reasons. As a particularly vile example, both Australia and the US supported the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia.
I was under the impression that the Israeli lobby was actually losing influence in Washington. That by no means indicates it has been marginalised, merely that other US interests in the region (namely Saudi Arabia) are beginning to overshadow the interest in Israel.
This may surprise you, but Israel is actually one of the least strategically valuable states in that region. Especially given the US's friendly relations with Turkey, the Saudis and Egypt. Lebanon is less important, as is Syria and probably Jordan, but Israel is not a strategically important state.
I remember it well.
But would it require them to stamp their passports with a large 'P,' denoting their Palestinian-ness? And would other states be willing to accept such large numbers of refugees from such a state?
That would require repeated crackdowns. With every crackdown the backlash will become more and more severe. It is difficult to imagine Israel maintaining its friendship with the US if it repeatedly expels sizable numbers of its own people. Public opinion in the US will eventually turn against it - much as it has in many parts of Europe - and force the leadership there to abandon the partnership.
Short of a program such as you've outlined above, which is itself self-defeating, yes.
Those Jews aren't coming back voluntarily. Not many of them, anyway. Still, they do have a very high fertility rate. At the same time, their extreme zealotry is in itself a threat to the secular nature of Israel. many atheistic and agnostic Jews would not welcome such a demographic shift either.
How does that seem likely? It seems to me that while there is certainly a lot of Jewish immigration to Israel, it's slowed considerably, while Jewish emigration has sped up. Granted, that could always shift in the future, but enough to off-set birth-rates? That seems highly suspect.
I don't recall stating that it was worrying.
Pakistan is in the South-East Asia Treaty Organisation and South Africa competes in the Pan-Pacific Games. I am surprised that most Moroccans would consider themselves Arabs though.
Nope. Sometimes it's the result of simply being an over-sensitive dick with an unwarranted superiority complex.
I would like you to point out where I say there is "systematic hatred and racism for Arabs" in Israel.
I don't have time right now, maybe later.
So you refer to a study, then refuse to link to it. You'll go far in academia.
Yeah, Sephardi is the term most commonly used. It's been a long time since I heard anyone actually use "Mizrahi."
I'm an Arab Jew who isn't Mizrahi. I am Sephardi though. Worked it out yet? It's not hard.
My apologies, I was having internet trouble when I was writing that post. This should work. Yes, I'm obviously referring to the wall, but simply swallowing less of the West Bank doesn't solve the other issues it raises.
Neither's being an Arab. I've already pointed out that I'm both Arab and Jewish. I'm unclear as to your point here.
To understand, no. But their comprehensibility has no bearing on their correctness.
I love how those who partake in rants often accuse others of doing so. More than one person can play that game.
I certainly have no idea what you're talking about.
Mouthwash said:
I'm becoming increasingly convinced that it was a thinly veiled attempt to justify the removal of Israeli Muslims. So, no. It isn't obvious.
I don't want to end up supporting the destruction of the "Jewish"Mouthwash said:
state.Like I said (and must apparently repeat over and over for the convenience of my subliterate criticasters), I couldn't care if every Israeli converted to Islam, so long as they considered themselves "Hebrew" or whatever. I'm not exactly religious, or have you not taken note?
I don't want to end up supporting the destruction of the "Jewish"
First, I think it's incredibly funny that a Jewish state is considered racist but a Palestinian state is not. Why does the standard that apply to every other people in the world not apply to Jews?
Second, you linked to my rant about the claim that Israel had sterilized Ethiopian Jews and said that I was spouting pro-Hezbollah propaganda or whatever. What gave you that impression? Was it some sort of incredibly poor sarcastic quip?
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
"Jewish" refers exclusively to people of Jewish ethnicity and religion, while "Palestinian" simply refers to anyone from or living in the region of Palestine. The difference isn't between "Jewish" and "non-Jewish" states, but between ethnic and non-ethnic ones.
It also refers to coitus interruptus, as it was this which caused God to slay Onan, after the latter failed to impregnate the wife of his dead brother (who God had slain previously for indeterminate wickedness). The masturbation thing probably fits Dachs' meaning slightly better, though.
It will go away if Israel survives long enough. The Palestinians outside of Israel are kept separate from the rest of society and cannot acquire citizenship, and therefore have developed a culture of victimhood. Most of the Arab world doesn't really like the Palestinians, so they pretty much don't care if they go back- they just want them neutralized. And if the Arab league recognizes Israel (as they inevitably will unless Israel is destroyed), then the Palestinian will definitely have no support for going back. I'm thinking like 50-75 years, here.
No, not a strong Palestine. Jordan, Syria, and Egypt will both have claims to make in the land. They may show solidarity with the Palestinians, but the Arab world is quite fed up with them.
Jordan works with Israel because it expects that Israel isn't going away anytime soon. It's not "friendly" under any definition of the word.
Well, yeah, but that isn't really the only motive.
The Jews are a nation like the French and Japanese are a nation. Why is it that they shouldn't have a state? Would you think it acceptable for half the population of France to be German, or half the population of Japan to be Chinese?
No, not Arab culture (though the whole nationalism thing was kinda shaken after 67). But look at the Middle East right now- Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and the Gulf Sheikhdoms are all doing well while dictators are getting overthrown and slaughtered. Nation-states on the Westphalian model don't really exist in the Middle East. Being a royal leader gives you some sort of legitimacy.
I don't think that "Israeli" is a nationality. I think Jewry is the nationality. There may be some Arabs that adapt and consider themselves Israeli (identifying more with the Jews than the Arabs) the same way some Algerians consider themselves French. As an interesting side note, almost 50% of the population of Israel just after independence was Arab.
Of course.
No, the Jewish population will always be into politics, and because they happen to be on the decline currently does not mean that they are doomed. This is what I mean about you saying certain things are inevitable/doomed because they happen to be on the wrong side of the demographic trend.
Now that Israel is closer with Greece, the Greek and Jewish lobbies (two of the most organized in DC) are working together.
Yeah, that' why the US is reevaluating it's position and starting to distance itself from Israel. But Israel is still very important, not in a geographic sense, but because of its relationship with the Arab world and its intelligence. History shows that Arab countries become hostile with the US regardless of its support or lack thereof for Israel (look at 1956). Israel needs the US as a critical ally, and the US knows that it can control Israel because of its fear of the entire Muslim world. Not to mention Israel has one of the most advanced armies and spy networks in the Middle East, and is the most stable country. Israel survives by making itself useful to greater powers.
I don't know the details of what would happen, but look at how Kuwait expelled Palestinians. Where did they go?
No, like I said- if Israel becomes existentially threatened the world will probably sympathize with them more than they would otherwise. Look at Kuwait- who cared when they expelled Palestinians?
Right... so is this what happens when you run out of argument?
Voluntarily? Nobody ever said that. Look at Gaza.
OK, you really don't know what you're talking about.
Firstly, Israel is no longer a socialist or leftist country. 80% of Israelis believe in God (the highest proportion in history), and secondly, the settlers aren't fanatics at all. Their beliefs are mainstream in Israel. They tend to be very nationalist as well (which is also why they try to have more kids). You seem to be operating on cheap stereotypes of the settlers as beard-growing religious nuts who wear gigantic yarmulkes and carry machines guns around. I can't imagine what problems would result from their coming back.
Do you recall me saying that immigration would magically speed up for no reason whatsoever?
So I made my assumption.
No, the Arab League is not merely a geostrategic alliance or trade bloc. Every country that is part of it is included because they are Arabic countries. Arabs are identified as such on linguistic or cultural grounds.
Ah, well, you always learn something new!
Well yeah, that, too. You're beginning to show sing of humility. But those were pretty strong words... so maybe self-contempt?
That was implied.
Hopefully you'll cherry-pick some awfully professional write-ups.
Right, here's one, since you can't muster up the energy. (I can't find the original- it's the last poll, so scroll all the way down).
Moroccan or Algerian.
And...? Anyone cut off from their property should receive compensation. Not a difficult concept.
Jewish nationalism exists. Catholic nationalism does not.
Ask Cheezy.
Who cares what people think? I'm not going on goddamn national television as a representative of AIPAC.
OK, so why do all those Arab states exist? Aren't they inherently racist? What about the African countries? Surely those are racist, too?
