Middle East discussion

[Lone Wolf]

Most states are in practice and in law multi-ethnic, even if a particular ethnicity or ethnicities may be dominant.

I'd say that many Israeli defenders mean exactly that by "Jewish state" - a state in which Jewish ethnicity is dominant. Nice enough in theory, though not so nice at all in practice.

 

[Tahuti]

I'd say that Israeli defenders mean exactly that by "Jewish state" - a state in which Jewish ethnicity is dominant. Nice enough in theory, though not so nice at all in practice.

At a theoretical level, all ethnic states are all bull. However, ethnic states are also a political reality we must learn to live by.

Honestly, I think that debating on who are the bad or good guys in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is quite futile. Politically, the whole situation was already the most likely thing to happen in the first place, and it did.

 

[Agent327]

I'd say that many Israeli defenders mean exactly that by "Jewish state" - a state in which Jewish ethnicity is dominant. Nice enough in theory, though not so nice at all in practice.

Jewish ethnicity? Last I checked Judaism was a religion including many ethnicities.

 

[Lone Wolf]

By that point, there's such a thing as Jewish ethnicity in general (consequence of your usual 19th century romantic nationalism and other processes that blurred the distiction, Zionism included). If that doesn't satisfy you, replace "Jewish" with "Israeli Jewish".

 

[Tahuti]

Jewish ethnicity? Last I checked Judaism was a religion including many ethnicities.

It works both ways: In many ways, converts to the Jewish religion are considered ethnic Jews as well, without losing their original ethnicity. In fact, Jews who lapse in religious practice are still considered Jews. Jews who were not raised religiously are still considered Jews as well. One can also be a Jew and an Atheist, Christian or Muslim.

EDIT: The Levant seems particularly fruitful of such fluid ethnic self-identification, for most Christian denominations in Syria and Lebanon have ethnic groups around them that exist independently from religion. You can be a Syrian Christian Atheist, for example.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I was suggesting that Israel is a Jewish state only in the sense that Poland is a Polish state- by national identity rather than ethnic characteristics.

Wouldn't that make Israel an Israeli State instead of a Jewish State?

 

[Tahuti]

Wouldn't that make Israel an Israeli State instead of a Jewish State?

Both Syria and Saudi Arabia are Arab states and derive the national identity in part from this, the other being their territory. Before the German and Italian reunification, Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and Lucca were respectively German and Italian states. There is no such thing as a Saxe-Coburg-whatever ethnic group. Nor is there a "Saudi Arabian" ethnic group. Likewise, Israel is a Jewish state in that its main ethnic group are Jews. Its national identity is formed around its Jewishness.

Of course, if one were to invent such thing as an "Israeli" ethnic group, then it might make sense. And Israeli Jews are in some way becoming distinct from Diasporic Jews as well, if they haven't already.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Israel was defined from the beginning as a "Jewish, democratic state." And yes, Israel is a secular democracy which was founded by vehemently anti-racist secular socialists such as Einstein. My point was that "Jewish state" is a superficial term; it might be the Jewish homeland, but it went to great lengths from the beginning to ensure equality for the Palestinian population (recall that Israel's second official language is Arabic). I was suggesting that Israel is a Jewish state only in the sense that Poland is a Polish state- by national identity rather than ethnic characteristics.

The sharp Palestinian minority who remained... Most were purposefully driven from their homes either before or during the 1947-48 war. An act that any sane observer would call ethnic cleansing, such as many of the Israeli founding fathers (such as David Ben-Gurion, the first Prime Minister of Israel) specifically stated was their goal.

 

[Lord Baal]

The sharp Palestinian minority who remained... Most were purposefully driven from their homes either before or during the 1947-48 war. An act that any sane observer would call ethnic cleansing, such as many of the Israeli founding fathers (such as David Ben-Gurion, the first Prime Minister of Israel) specifically stated was their goal.

Yeah, my family was actually pretty lucky in that they were Christian Arabs, and therefore the paramilitaries in the area left them alone. According to my grandmother the Muslims on the other side of town were very badly treated. Some of the middle-aged men who had been involved in governing the town before the Israelis took it were hanged.