Minerals as Terrain Features?

[Dancing Hoskuld]

What about a spy and the ability to steel a resource four 5-10 turns

That is one of the things in Sevo's Faces of God mod I would like to implement. The rogue builds a depot in your home territory and then goes and sits on the enemy resource transferring it to the depot plot until the rogue is removed or the depot is destroyed.

That is the problem with the players mentality.
If they want to go for early advantage, they build these new farms and destroy the chance of finding more useful resources.

Else, it is neither realistic nor good for Ai.
In terms of gameplay, human players will definitely exploit it as a hidden treasure radar to decide good city location.
Realistic wise, it is stupid that something you cannot see decide whether you can do something

1) can only place resources inside your territory so can only find hidden resources in your territory so it is of limited use for placing cities.

2) realistically you don't destroy most mineral resources by planting on the surface. Same for animals. It is just the way civ works by having everything on the surface.

 

[platyping]

Since civ is a game, naturally you won't expect it to be 100% realistic.
Ability to place 1 billion units into a small plot of land.
Gigantic soldier as big as a city.
Units that know how to defend but can never attack.

But given a choice, why will you implement a new function in a non realistic way

 

[BlueGenie]

As you already have to have the resource to be able to build a Wheat Farm in the first place I would suggest either of the following:

Make the [Resource] Farm have 99% chance every turn to discover the resource. If another resource is there that won't happen, right?

As for realism I see that as due to the infusion to the soil of the mineral type being there the plants do not take well in that soil and the efforts to plant the resource fails.

 

[Thunderbrd]

hmm... very interesting discussion which I've missed until today. I've been thinking on this and I think there are a number of ways we can address these issues. Probably none of them are 100% optimal due to some limitations. What would be most interesting imo is if we could actually have multiple resources on a plot, graphics overlapping without causing issue. Even perhaps differing resource layers. Hydro made some good points as to what some of the problems with having them as improvements might be.

I like the transportability and such concepts working around in this discussion and although I've always meant to have equipment be a completely optional system, I can really see the equipment design mechanism being nearly perfect for forming a basis for representing some of these things - gatherer's and workers collecting seeds and herds and infusing them into plots as resources. Criminal units being able to steal them. Cities being able to incubate them for pickup and delivery by worker units. Workers have been allowed promos so that may be an interesting side to it. Equipment also has a not-in-use inventory system planned that may well fit very nicely into this concept. It just might make it a bit harder to isolate the 'rest' of the equipment system into an option (but shouldn't be impossible - would just take some further thought.)

This all overlaps with the Ideas project too and I'm really just trying to consider how all of this might be encompassable into only one or two generic processes with wide parameters.

I'd almost like to see farms REQUIRE a farmable resource considering we've never in civ answered the question - if we don't have a farmable food source resource on a plot, what exactly are we deriving from the farm there?

The same could be said for Mines and other mineral reasources - but we'd have to have a way to 'discover' workable resources and we'd have to enable multiple workable resources and enable the player to be selective as to which resource to 'work'. This may well mean a lot more finely defined improvement types that are only capable of being placed on a plot that has a given improvement and only produce that particular bonus type.

We could also use all this thinking to guide animal species successes and failures. Wild animals could be inspired to spread their own specific spawning points and could be given accumulation points to unlock their ability to do so, along with instructions as to what terrain they prefer to plant their additional 'herds/lairs'. These could very well be improvements that utilize the additional possible improvements on a plot. (There is a 'primary improvement' slot on a plot that will have a graphic effect and then there are secondary (and unlimited) improvements that will add no graphic effect to the plot but CAN show up on a plot info hover. Animal Lairs and Herds (Spawn Points) could be very appropriate to utilize these secondary improvement layers because we'd need to be able to have more than one on a given plot for a proper distribution of animals to take place anyhow. We COULD even implement a very dynamic natural world mechanic which has been discussed previously. In short - each animal unit would actually have some goals, motivations, and something to actually achieve... this could be done quite generically. I've long been musing over this subject and wondering if I could do something along these lines even if it were an option.)

All of this would make a Nomadic Start all the very much more interesting - which is one reason I have such an interest in focusing on the animal/natural world before getting that project fully underway.

There's a lot to consider here and what would be optimal may well differ in each player/modder's viewpoint. I'll give it some thought and let it percolate a bit before making a solid suggestion but I think we're thinking in the right directions so far. Platyping makes some good points here and perhaps enabling multiple resources as discussed would solve the problems he's pointing at without having so far being able to offer a truly solid solution. The biggest issue I can forsee with multiple resources on a plot is the graphics layer... not quite sure without delving into that how easily that could be done... but someone a while back mentioned that a mod out there had tackled the problem previously so I think it CAN be done. Anyone happen to know which mod does this?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

.. but someone a while back mentioned that a mod out there had tackled the problem previously so I think it CAN be done. Anyone happen to know which mod does this?

Yes, Caveman2Cosmso but only with features.

I should have extended the the settling of herd animals from just horse to cows and sheep (ibex or mouflon) with my next update.

I have just rediscovered why I could not limit Llamas to South America and Kangaroos to Oceania - there is no getLongitude() method on the plot for Python to use.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yes, Caveman2Cosmso but only with features.

I should have extended the the settling of herd animals from just horse to cows and sheep (ibex or mouflon) with my next update.

I have just rediscovered why I could not limit Llamas to South America and Kangaroos to Oceania - there is no getLongitude() method on the plot for Python to use.

You do know I've done this for you at this point right? This is no longer a restriction. Use in the same way you'd use latitude just replace the term with longitude.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I tried this morning cyPlot has no method getLongitude. Has a method getLatitude. I tested again before posting.

 

[Thunderbrd]

hmm... I wonder what's wrong... according to the dll I have mirrored getLatitude with getLongitude everywhere it's expressed in the code. This includes:

int CyPlot::getLatitude()																						
{
	return m_pPlot ? m_pPlot->getLatitude() : -1;
}

int CyPlot::getLongitude()																						
{
	return m_pPlot ? m_pPlot->getLongitude() : -1;
}

		.def("getLatitude", &CyPlot::getLatitude, "int ()")
		.def("getLongitude", &CyPlot::getLongitude, "int ()")

and

	int getLatitude();		
	int getLongitude();

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Well that is weird today it is working fine. I'll just assume I was having a bad dyslexia day yesterday.

 

[Harrier]

I am altering SEM and two of my alterations so far are:

1. Adjusted Latitude so the Equator is near Kenya (Lake).

2. Altered map so Longitude 0 is now in England. (Cosmetic change only - but accurate.)

Seems it may not be just cossmetic after all.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am altering SEM and two of my alterations so far are:

1. Adjusted Latitude so the Equator is near Kenya (Lake).

2. Altered map so Longitude 0 is now in England. (Cosmetic change only - but accurate.)

Seems it may not be just cossmetic after all.

The problem is that animal spawns assume that the left edge if the map is 180 degrees west and the right is 180 degrees east. This means that if longitude 0 is not in the centre of the map then animals will not spawn in the correct place. This means you need a special spawn file for your map.

 

[Harrier]

The problem is that animal spawns assume that the left edge if the map is 180 degrees west and the right is 180 degrees east. This means that if longitude 0 is not in the centre of the map then animals will not spawn in the correct place. This means you need a special spawn file for your map.

Well SEM is 84 tiles across (0-83), the centre would be x=41. English capital is set to be placed on x=42 (Longitude 0). I think that should be near enough.

But, because of the constraints of a standard map, i.e. the oceans are not big enough. I do not think that accurate placements are possible. i.e. part of South America is where the Atlantic Ocean should be. Also the Pacific is probably where parts of South America should be. So maybe a special spawn file would still be needed, despite Lomgitude being almost correct on the map.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well that is weird today it is working fine. I'll just assume I was having a bad dyslexia day yesterday.

Wicked cool! Looking forward to what you'll be doing with it!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Well SEM is 84 tiles across (0-83), the centre would be x=41. English capital is set to be placed on x=42 (Longitude 0). I think that should be near enough.

But, because of the constraints of a standard map, i.e. the oceans are not big enough. I do not think that accurate placements are possible. i.e. part of South America is where the Atlantic Ocean should be. Also the Pacific is probably where parts of South America should be. So maybe a special spawn file would still be needed, despite Lomgitude being almost correct on the map.

Currently most spawns are very simplistic. They are based on Earth but had to be modified because of the lack of land on Earth in the southern hemisphere. I basically split the world into North and South hemisphere and then divided each of those into three. This gives North America, Europe and Asia in the northern hemisphere and South America, Africa and Oceania in the southern. Oceania has most marsupials, the Moa and the eagle that eats it.

Animal range is based on their distance from Earth's equator but expanded east and west to the full size of the sector. In the Southern hemisphere the southern range of animals is also extended.

On Earth maps animals should be gives their actual spawn regions. There is a special spawn file for GEM perhaps there needs to be one for SEM also.

 

[Harrier]

On Earth maps animals should be gives their actual spawn regions. There is a special spawn file for GEM perhaps there needs to be one for SEM also.

Well that is some thing I will look into - eventually. But as I am still playtesting C2C (only started playing this mod a few months ago) and then started modifying Spirals update to the SEM map (in Feb.) as I go along (i.e. playing on different regions of the map [2 so far] and adding/deleting resources as I think they should be present).

I am playing SEM because I only have 32 bit XP with 512mb graphics card. I would upgrade - but do not like reports about win 8.

 

[mattchaos]

Hi all

As this is my first post here, please let me first congratulate you for the very good job on this mod, I've downloaded it since a few weeks and I'm really enjoying it since.
You really have done an amazing job on this and apparently continue to do so.
This thread is also very promising as being able to move freely living ressources is something I really wanted to be able to do since a long time. I don't have either the time or the knowledge to mod it myself, I'm only only able to modify slightly the xml to fit my preferences, but I'll try my best to help find a solution on this.

On topic now.
If the issue is to have different ressources on the same tile, wouldn't it be possible to have an improvment providing a ressource without the ressource being actually on the map ?
For example if you have some wheat grains as a unit, you can use it to built a "wheat farm", and this farm provides wheat to the city exploiting it, even if the wheat farm is built on top of an iron or something.

If not possible, apparently the main issue is graphical, I can see that you were able to add a lot of properties for each tile of the map, so it could certainly be possible to add more, for ressources. The player would then have to dig or search actively for the ressources to be able to locate them, this could even take the form of an event (citizens of city X have discovered a source of Silver ! Dig it -> destroy farm ! Leave it alone -> nothing).

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Currently improvements are only coded to give the resource they are built on. We have discussed this before and the code would need to change to allow improvements to provide something other than the resource on the plot.

 

[BlueGenie]

Do you have to? Can the city building not provide the resource? +1 Wheat resource per Wheat Farm in city vicinity? Just a thought as we have all these buildings anyway.

Cheers

 

[Faustmouse]

I don't have either the time or the knowledge to mod it myself, I'm only only able to modify slightly the xml to fit my preferences, but I'll try my best to help find a solution on this.

Hi and welcome!
I'll come up with a post later for those that want to help but doesn't know how.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Do you have to? Can the city building not provide the resource? +1 Wheat resource per Wheat Farm in city vicinity? Just a thought as we have all these buildings anyway.

Cheers

We would need to code it somewhere eg Python or dll. New tags in the XML and new AI.