Minimum Wage: What's the Other Argument?

Oh, we don't want to level income result.

I like the idea of shooting to get as many people (as is reasonable) productive, rather than maximizing productivity (if they conflict). The natural laws of economics suggest letting some people starve to death, whilst the first goal allows counter-cyclical spending into public goods.
 
Oh, we don't want to level income result.

I like the idea of shooting to get as many people (as is reasonable) productive, rather than maximizing productivity (if they conflict). The natural laws of economics suggest letting some people starve to death, whilst the first goal allows counter-cyclical spending into public goods.

Maybe you don't, want to level income result, but that puts you in the minority.

J
 
Was this approach to the thread interesting? Did you stay in character? Did you learn anything about yourself or others? Were there any interestingly persuasive arguments?
 
I thought it was interesting to lurk in for parts, but I avoided posting because I could not stay in character.
 
Was this approach to the thread interesting? Did you stay in character? Did you learn anything about yourself or others? Were there any interestingly persuasive arguments?

Mildly. No. No. Not that I saw.
 
I feel like most people didn't take the opposing view seriously enough. Some people did, but I also saw a lot of caricatures. It's pretty easy to argue both sides of the minimum wage, because it's one of those straight-forward cost/benefit things. But a lot of people seemed to put forth particularly weak arguments, or strong arguments articulated in weak ways, even though they're perfectly capable of articulating a solid counterargument to their own positions. I don't know if that's a problem with the format or merely the responses, but I think if you can't see or articulate all sides of an issue, or can't see the weak points in your own argument, then it doesn't bode well for your actual argument.

That said, I didn't offer my own opinion, and just ended up agreeing with El Mac and MobBoss, so I can't be too critical of others.
 
I'm still a little miffed nobody cares about the iniquity presented in the situation the OP describes.
 
I must admit that I didn't follow through on the OP's wishes. I stated my case against MW, but then didn't robustly attack people who came to a different conclusion. It might be because I'm reasonably agnostic on the topic. I'm not sure which way history will judge it. It's probably so case-dependent that it will be some time before we unpack its benefits and harms.
 
To answer the question in the topic, I oppose labor market rigidities.

If we begin by asking ourselves why the US has higher wages than for example Zimbabwe, the answer is that the US has had economic growth which has enabled a higher productivity per worker and a more efficient division of labor. This has led to a demand for workers and wage competition between employers. Wages are NOT high because some union has demanded that they should be high. Unions may demand what they want, but if a wage is not in line with worker productivity, then the result is unemployment and everyone (on average) becomes poorer.

So why does the US have jobs which offer so bad pay? One explanation is that those jobs are for people with low skills who have for some reason not set themselves in a position where they can have more productive jobs. They need those jobs to rise higher on the pay scale. It is still better than unemployment. One other explanation is that the US is the most liberal country in the world when it comes to immigration. Many immigrants have lesser skills and need those jobs to be able to immigrate in the first place, thus lowering the inflation in the US and potentionally benefitting everyone. A native US person trapped under those wages is of course a loser in that situation, but should aim for a more productive job.

I live in Finland, where wages are set by employer-union deals which can be binding for a whole business, potentionally setting very high minimum wages (on a European scale, Americans have higher inflation-adjusted wages). As the economy has stagnated for almost 8 years, unemployment and public debt keeps rising, preventing economic growth. Soon Finland might be in Greece's situation. In Finland's recent election, this was one of the main issues, with all parties except the radical left agreeing that wages are too high, causing unemployment. Sweden on the other hand has a very similar economic and political system, but does not have these binding deals, instead letting wages float. Unsurprisingly, Sweden has not been similarly struck by unemployment. Instead, with a full labor force in action, they have even managed economic growth. And, returning to the beginning of my post, economic growth is what ensures high wages for everyone in the long run.

Therefore, again returning to the beginning of my post, I oppose labor market rigidities, such as minimum wage laws, since they are an aritificial, ineffective way to solve problems of poverty, and in the long run create more poverty instead.
 
To answer the question in the topic, I oppose labor market rigidities.

If we begin by asking ourselves why the US has higher wages than for example Zimbabwe, the answer is that the US has had economic growth which has enabled a higher productivity per worker and a more efficient division of labor. This has led to a demand for workers and wage competition between employers. Wages are NOT high because some union has demanded that they should be high. Unions may demand what they want, but if a wage is not in line with worker productivity, then the result is unemployment and everyone (on average) becomes poorer.

That depends entirely on the ratio of jobs to workers. If there are many jobs and few workers to fill them, then wages rise to the point whereby employers can't afford to pay more, because otherwise any given worker is going to go down the road for a better wage. If there are comparatively few jobs and comparatively many potential workers, though, wages naturally fall to the point whereby no worker can accept less. Otherwise, if a worker doesn't take what he's offered, there's another person waiting who will - so he becomes unemployed. We're usually in the latter situation, and in those cases you absolutely do need some sort of collective negotiation to remove that extra man willing to work for an excessively low wage: employers otherwise will pay as little as they can get away with. The amount of total wealth in the system is the same with higher wages in those circumstances - since they're still below the breakeven point - but it's distributed more fairly. In fact, one might argue that it would increase, since well-fed workers who can afford the odd day off and healthcare when they need it are more productive than starved, stressed, sick people.

EDIT: I realise that may have been in character, in which case I was not - if so, please ignore.
 
Was this approach to the thread interesting? Did you stay in character? Did you learn anything about yourself or others? Were there any interestingly persuasive arguments?


I didn't get into the tread because I didn't want to make and defend the opposing arguments. Maybe I could have, had I more time. But as I don't really believe in them, I likely wouldn't have pulled it off well.
 
Minority of who?

Of the posters in this thread.

I didn't get into the tread because I didn't want to make and defend the opposing arguments. Maybe I could have, had I more time. But as I don't really believe in them, I likely wouldn't have pulled it off well.

Too bad. It would have improved your flexibility.

J
 
That depends entirely on the ratio of jobs to workers. If there are many jobs and few workers to fill them, then wages rise to the point whereby employers can't afford to pay more, because otherwise any given worker is going to go down the road for a better wage. If there are comparatively few jobs and comparatively many potential workers, though, wages naturally fall to the point whereby no worker can accept less. Otherwise, if a worker doesn't take what he's offered, there's another person waiting who will - so he becomes unemployed. We're usually in the latter situation, and in those cases you absolutely do need some sort of collective negotiation to remove that extra man willing to work for an excessively low wage: employers otherwise will pay as little as they can get away with.

If this was true, the process would always be at work in every field of work, and the downward pressure on wages would be huge. It just isnt so - the difference in wages between the US and Mozambique is astronomical, and this difference is solely caused by demands of labor, so I would say that there is a huge discrepancy between reality and what you claim.

If there is indeed unemployment, then the causes of it should be remedied rather than applying an artificial solution that only creates more unemployment.

In fact, one might argue that it would increase, since well-fed workers who can afford the odd day off and healthcare when they need it are more productive than starved, stressed, sick people.

Noone actually wants to starve workers. Opponents of minimum wage oppose them because they cause more poverty than they prevent.

A fairly large marjority of economists actually oppose minimum wage laws. Hard to believe that they all evil starvation proponents... In general, they support some other measures to allieviate poverty.
 
If this was true, the process would always be at work in every field of work, and the downward pressure on wages would be huge. It just isnt so - the difference in wages between the US and Mozambique is astronomical, and this difference is solely caused by demands of labor, so I would say that there is a huge discrepancy between reality and what you claim.

Hang on, I don't follow. If it's true that employers pay the lowest wages that they can get away with, then all employers everywhere should pay poverty wages? Are you not assuming that conditions - labour and otherwise - in the USA and Mozambique are perfectly identical? Also, I think you need to consider price differences, though I will concede that real wages are not equal everywhere, either. You've got questions of productivity, education, training, technology and so on to consider, to say nothing of potential markets - if an American worker can generate more money than one in Mozambique, he's probably going to be paid more. The lowest amount that he's willing to accept is higher.

If there is indeed unemployment, then the causes of it should be remedied rather than applying an artificial solution that only creates more unemployment.

I would challenge the idea that minimum wages create unemployment. The argument is that raising them will cause businesses to outsource or automate, and so put human beings out of work. That's a valid argument, I think, but it's totally outdated - it was true in the 19th century, and even into the fifties, but we're now in a situation where practically all of the jobs paying minimum wage - low-skilled manufacture, for example - that can be outsourced or automated already have been. So we're left with jobs that you can't outsource - you can pay somebody in India a pittance to provide tech support for a customer in Cleveland, for example, but you can never pay them to make him a Big Mac. Not coincidentally, these are also jobs with a large number of potential workers per position, because we've lost most of the jobs that you can start without any qualifications or experience, so they're paying below the breakeven rate. Bringing in a higher minimum wage here shouldn't affect employment, because each employee would remain profitable - it would, however, cut into the profits of the corporations hiring them, which is why so many of them oppose it. Alternatively, it would raise prices, effectively distributing money from those earning more than minimum wage to those earning it.

Noone actually wants to starve workers. Opponents of minimum wage oppose them because they cause more poverty than they prevent.

A fairly large marjority of economists actually oppose minimum wage laws. Hard to believe that they all evil starvation proponents... In general, they support some other measures to allieviate poverty.

No, opponents of minimum wage laws oppose them, by and large, because they directly benefit from them (and the lower prices/higher corporate profits that they entail) or are persuaded by those who do. Economists, too, will tell you that minimum wage laws are economically inefficient, so there would be more money around if we didn't have them. That may be true, but it's also beside the point. Minimum wages represent a limit on the amount that Peter can be robbed to pay Paul. I'd argue that a lot of the people who oppose minimum wages may not actively want Peter to starve, but they're not willing to take a cut in their paycheck or a hump in their food budget to stop him from doing so.
 
No, opponents of minimum wage laws oppose them, by and large, because they directly benefit from them (and the lower prices/higher corporate profits that they entail) or are persuaded by those who do. Economists, too, will tell you that minimum wage laws are economically inefficient, so there would be more money around if we didn't have them. That may be true, but it's also beside the point. Minimum wages represent a limit on the amount that Peter can be robbed to pay Paul. I'd argue that a lot of the people who oppose minimum wages may not actively want Peter to starve, but they're not willing to take a cut in their paycheck or a hump in their food budget to stop him from doing so.

You are making this up as you go. Politically, almost no one opposing minimum wage is directly impacted at all. That is where the primary focus of this conversation sits.

Also, direct benefits is not a bar. Anyone can and will quote facts that favor their position. They are still facts. Environmental studies are not wrong because an oil company funded the study. Climate change studies are not wrong because they are funded by NASA.

J
 
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