Minor requests and questions thread

[Wauthan]

Two minor balancing issues:

With the 3 food per population the Malakum Aduar is not a very good improvement. I suggest that it provides +1 food with Currency and +1 commerce with Taxation. This would make it a +2 food, +1 hammer, +4 commerce improvement in total. I feel this is balanced enough considering how long it takes to grow an Aduar and how easy it is to destroy.

The Khazad worldspell "Mother Lode" has been severely nerfed when you exchanged mines for quarries. Simply make the spell grant 25 gold for every mine and quarry and it's back to strength again.

 

[arkham4269]

While playing the Infernals the other day, the AC hit 100 and it barely was a blip. Perhaps all those nasty AC avatars ignore Evil races or maybe just the Infernals. However, in this game, most of the remaining races where evil so a lot of the negative affects of a high AC didn't seem to bother them.

So I was thinking that perhaps a change is in order. Maybe when the AC hits 100, the dead come back to life. I remember a long time ago in FfH the Soul Forge would 'collect' all the dead of a civilization and when the AC hit a certain number they ALL came back as cranky barbarians coming out of the city that had the Soul Forge.

Well that was pretty bad for the owning civ and made me wonder why you'd ever want to build it which is probably why it got changed. So I was thinking, the code exists to track units who have been killed and there is a code to randomly place hellfire and Sect of Flies.

So perhaps when the AC gets to a certain number, the code would kick in and start to track all units killed. When the AC then gets to 100, all of these units would be randomly be distributed throughout the map and would attack everyone.

Now it would be cool in a way if you actually have the dead rise up from where they were killed but I think that would be unworkable, especially since that would mean many would show up in cities unless there could be some IF/THEN GOTO routine that would cause them to spawn a tile away from the city.

(Of course one wonders would all Scions units have a random chance to become alive? )

 

[Lone Wolf]

Never mind.

 

[Jabie]

Good point here Arkham. Maybe severing gods influence on Erebus? Processing a ritual that would sever Erebus from access from the gods (lorewise, it could be a trick played by the One to the angels, him giving, one way or another, the means to Erebus to espace itself from angels' influence). A three-time victory: first, razing a number of holy cities in order to gather information on the ritual, maybe represented by items in game; second, gathering all the items in one city and doing a first ritual to enable the second: this ritual would cause any religious civ to DoW you (may give relationship bonus to other agnostic civs?); third: the last ritual would have to be performed in order to sever Erebus from gods' influence.

I like the sound of that one. Fits in well with the Mechanos. They need ought to offer some kind of bonus:

* Ritual #1: Requires some kind of early religious tech. Maybe allows the builder to build Students from the Dural in FF(?) Only available to Mechanos/Grigori.

* Ritual #2: Requires medium religious tech. Maybe allows the builder to build Professors from the Dural in FF. Only available to Mechanos/Grigori. All other Civs except Grigori and Mechanos declare War.

* Ritual #3: Requires high-end relgious tech, high end machinery tech and Steam Power. Puts a 30 turn clock on the game. If the city which built Ritual #3 hasn't been razed by then

As for a name for the Ritual, how about Skynet? The Lore could be about dividing Erebus from the Heavens, but I'm fairly sure most readers will be familiar with the other connotations...

 

[arkham4269]

Never mind.

Since I got a copy of what you wrote, I agree. However, that is exactly what I meant about the AC counter. Hell on Erebus isn't give evil types a pass. I mean in some respects I would think that the OO are still going to fight the AV and many an evil race might have the CoE. Plus evil are like the Sith, everyone fights to see who gets to be top dog as it were.

 

[arkham4269]

I like the sound of that one. Fits in well with the Mechanos. They need ought to offer some kind of bonus.

Very good ideas but I don't like the fact that ritual #2 causes everyone to go to war. Usually that only happens at the last ritual. Again, the agnostics are nerfed as it is; making everyone attack them (even if it makes sense lore-wise) isn't very good for game balance.

Plus, I think the Risen Emperor needs a way to win similar to the Illians in that He places Himself upon a throne like a God.

As for a name for the Ritual, how about Skynet? The Lore could be about dividing Erebus from the Heavens, but I'm fairly sure most readers will be familiar with the other connotations...

Well let's hope they don't scorch the sky...

One nasty thought is that perhaps the Mechanos, due to their study of mana that led to refined mana, learn of a way to 'taint' mana nodes. So perhaps their Witch Hunters could sneak in an 'poison their wells' so to speak. Or perhaps a ritual that does something bad to all mana nodes and thus perhaps shuts off the ability for units to spellcast for a certain number of turns.

 

[Opera]

Very good ideas but I don't like the fact that ritual #2 causes everyone to go to war. Usually that only happens at the last ritual. Again, the agnostics are nerfed as it is; making everyone attack them (even if it makes sense lore-wise) isn't very good for game balance.

Plus, I think the Risen Emperor needs a way to win similar to the Illians in that He places Himself upon a throne like a God.

The #3, then? I think there is a need to make them go to war or at least defend against it. They would, in a way, threaten Erebus and everything that exists. Religious civs would certainly see them as harbingers of the armageddon. Even the AV civs would be mad because not having connection to gods anymore would equal not having anymore power. Now that I read your post again, I notice that you mention "everyone attack them" (as Jabie said); in my mind, it was more "everybody following a religion", meaning that if, by chance, some civ follow Humanism and thus no religion, this civ won't declare war against the Mechanos.

One nasty thought is that perhaps the Mechanos, due to their study of mana that led to refined mana, learn of a way to 'taint' mana nodes. So perhaps their Witch Hunters could sneak in an 'poison their wells' so to speak. Or perhaps a ritual that does something bad to all mana nodes and thus perhaps shuts off the ability for units to spellcast for a certain number of turns.

Isn't Arcane Lacuna (or whatever it's called) already doing this? But the "mana poisoning" idea is interesting. Care to develop more?

 

[arkham4269]

The #3, then?

Oh definitely, just like when you start building the AoL or ToM.

I think there is a need to make them go to war or at least defend against it. They would, in a way, threaten Erebus and everything that exists. Religious civs would certainly see them as harbingers of the Armageddon.

Agreed, but again lore-wise, I can't see folks like the Bannor trading with them or why Basium wouldn't treat them (and the Grigori & Risen Emperor for that matter) as evil and declare war on them as well.

Isn't Arcane Lacuna (or whatever it's called) already doing this? But the "mana poisoning" idea is interesting. Care to develop more?

If I remember right, that just causes all mana to revert to it's base mana. Haven't seen this in action, I can't say if the following is true, but I've noticed that once a unit has access to a spell, loss of that mana doesn't affect it. So even if you lose all your mana, it only affects new adepts being built, not the ones you already have.

My thinking is tainting magic itself might cause all actual spell users (mages, druids and 'clerical' units) would get a nasty promotion to show that using tainted mana causes problems. Perhaps it might cause their spells to misfire or the wrong spell to fire or perhaps using a spell causes X amount of damage to the caster.

Now this shouldn't affect units like techmages, fauns, rangers, or any other unit that uses 'spells' simply as a game effect. (I'm assuming when a technomage upgrades a tile, he's doing it via some form of scientific terraforming) I mean don't flag-bearers have a 'spell' that is similar to loyalty? Same effect, but I doubt they cause loyalty through magic but rather patriotism (flag-waving indeed!)

 

[Opera]

Agreed, but again lore-wise, I can't see folks like the Bannor trading with them or why Basium wouldn't treat them (and the Grigori & Risen Emperor for that matter) as evil and declare war on them as well.

I'm not sure that Basium would want to go after the Grigori... after the Mechanos, if they did launch a sort of big quest to end the gods' grasp on Erebus, yeah, possibly. That's totally doable. Since it would be done in python, you can check if the player (AI) is Basium or not and if it is, it declares war on Mechanos even if not following any religion. However, that would still require the #3 ritual.

If I remember right, that just causes all mana to revert to it's base mana. Haven't seen this in action, I can't say if the following is true, but I've noticed that once a unit has access to a spell, loss of that mana doesn't affect it. So even if you lose all your mana, it only affects new adepts being built, not the ones you already have.

I may be mistaken. Maybe it's in FF that their spell does that... I remember a game where they used it and a red text appeared above the score table, like with Stasis, saying: "Spellcasting disabled for 30 turns".

My thinking is tainting magic itself might cause all actual spell users (mages, druids and 'clerical' units) would get a nasty promotion to show that using tainted mana causes problems. Perhaps it might cause their spells to misfire or the wrong spell to fire or perhaps using a spell causes X amount of damage to the caster.

Now this shouldn't affect units like techmages, fauns, rangers, or any other unit that uses 'spells' simply as a game effect. (I'm assuming when a technomage upgrades a tile, he's doing it via some form of scientific terraforming) I mean don't flag-bearers have a 'spell' that is similar to loyalty? Same effect, but I doubt they cause loyalty through magic but rather patriotism (flag-waving indeed!)

Maybe a ritual that cause every arcane and adept units in the world to gain the Tainted Magic promotion, causing, say, 80% miscast? It may also be possible to add damage when miscasting.

 

[Jabie]

Mana Poisoning: Give the Witch Hunter a spell to build Tainted Nodes on Mana Nodes. I suggest the art looks like an unenhanced mana node, but greeny-yellow in colour or has "unhealthy smoke"

Whilst a node is Tainted it is no longer available for new spell-casters and won't provide affinity bonuses. (Optionally tainted nodes could allow spell-caster to receive Magic Resistance I-III)

Allow construction in Foreign Territory but with the proviso that doing so will be treated as a hostile act. This means that the reversal effect is for the Civ in question to send their own adepts to the affected Mana Node and build it back into a functioning Node - a feature which is already in the game and hence won't need to be coded or taught to new players.

As an additional option a new (rare) event can become available: Tainted Mana - A random Mana node becomes tainted. This is important if the Witch Hunter somehow become invisible and you are playing a multi-player game.

 

[arkham4269]

Mana Poisoning: Give the Witch Hunter a spell to build Tainted Nodes on Mana Nodes. I suggest the art looks like an unenhanced mana node, but greeny-yellow in colour or has "unhealthy smoke"

(snip)

As an additional option a new (rare) event can become available: Tainted Mana - A random Mana node becomes tainted. This is important if the Witch Hunter somehow become invisible and you are playing a multi-player game.

Well theoretically as much as it's nice to have the mana, one would expect that the Mechanos would be required to raze a city taken that has a Holy City. However, I would think that wouldn't apply to the CoE since it's not supposedly a religion. How that could be coded I'm not sure. However, by taking that "Holy" City, then the Mechanos could gain invisibility, correct? I don't play w/CoE very often.

 

[Ahwaric]

One thing I'm noticing is that the Mechanos (and perhaps all the agnostic races) need a special victory all of their own.

So perhaps a special way to victory would be to raze a certain amount of Holy Cities (depending on world size) and then building some sort of "Tower to Humanism" a sort of Tower of Babel one could also call the "In Your Face, You Gods!" tower.

Good idea, but I do not want to add victory condition for just one civ. Illians do not get one. Maybe some kind of ascension for all non-god types? But how to separate which one actually won?

Two minor balancing issues:

Both good points. I will add it.

So I was thinking that perhaps a change is in order. Maybe when the AC hits 100, the dead come back to life. I remember a long time ago in FfH the Soul Forge would 'collect' all the dead of a civilization and when the AC hit a certain number they ALL came back as cranky barbarians coming out of the city that had the Soul Forge.

Nice idea. I think some changes to armageddon are needed to make it more scary and that is a good idea. But I think that evil guys should get some kind of protection. Perhaps it is time to separate barbarians to barbarians and demons and make AV and OO civs at peace with them? I.e. with a ritual as in FF?

I may be mistaken. Maybe it's in FF that their spell does that... I remember a game where they used it and a red text appeared above the score table, like with Stasis, saying: "Spellcasting disabled for 30 turns".

No, it is the normal FfH behaviour now. It got changed some time ago.

 

[arcticnightwolf]

Any chance of borrowing "autocast" code from FF ?? (( http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=320249 ))

 

[Opera]

Ahwaric: I would like to know what do you think about the Master buildings of FF and, especially, about their equipments. I like it and plan on doing something similar for the Ngomele, mostly to balance the fact that they don't have access to any "weapons" promotion.

 

[mortcalavin]

Question: Has anybody else been having problems with some units? I've played as the Bannor and the Elohim, and both times certain units (fort commanders, hunters, etc.) I could only control through hotkeys because there were no command buttons. I couldn't promote them either. It looks like an awesome mod, but this is kind of ruining the experience for me, only being able to promote warriors and scouts...

 

[Wauthan]

About the +1 food on coasts and oceans. Was that really needed? I felt the 3 food with Lighthouse was good a enough break even situation. Lanun have been seriously boosted by this change, which might not have been intended.

 

[Jabie]

Ahwaric: I would like to know what do you think about the Master buildings of FF and, especially, about their equipments. I like it and plan on doing something similar for the Ngomele, mostly to balance the fact that they don't have access to any "weapons" promotion.

I'm sure as heck not Ahwaric, so don't place too much credence on my thoughts, but my personal take is that all the different types of kit and traps is a level of micromanagement too far.

Re: making Armageddon more scary. I think the More Events mod took some of the Armageddon events discussed in the main forum. Might be worth a look...

Re: Victory condition for Agnostic civs. Snare of the Heavens (or whatever the Final Ritual is called) could be applied to Scions and Illians fairly easily. Create your Avatar - Auric Ascended, Risen Emperor, Basium, Hyperborem or whoever. Cast the ritual which liberates man from the Gods... if you have the only Avatar after X turns. However after X turns, if there is more than one Avatar in play, the inherent imbalances destroys the Snare of the Heavens. Man cannot serve two Masters....

We've discussed Mechanos build-up to Emancipation from the Gods (or whatever this type of victory is called). Given their background, their Avatar could be a(n immobile) giant Difference Engine in their Capital city that boosts their science rate. Cue 10,000 Names of God by Arthur C Clarke. If their Capital falls, they're out of the running for this type of Victory.

Scions - Perhaps some kind of way of blurring the line between life and death to restore Patria to it's full glory. The further along the ritual chain the the greater the chances of Awakened appearing. Naturally messing about with the natural order is going to annoy the Sidar no end.

I've no idea how to fit the Grigori into this scheme, where Brigit fits into this scheme, whether Cassiel and Sabathiel would count, whether or not Odio would break free, and, most significantly of all, whether any of these could be coded (in a manner which the AI understands).

 

[arcticnightwolf]

It would be cool if city culture wouldn't be allowed to reach other side of mountain range ...
i mean:

Spoiler :

We have this situation:
("C" - city, "g" - grassland, "M" - peak)

ggggggCgggggg
MMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMM
ggggggggggggg


Culture (as it is now):

ggggggCgggggg
MMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMM
ggggggggggggg


So I suggest to restrict it to this:
(something like this is already implemented for water - you can't have culture more than 2 plots to the sea)

ggggggCgggggg
MMMMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMMMM
ggggggggggggg

 

[arcticnightwolf]

heh, one more question ... what all is causing mutation ?? i'm playing as Mechanos, and some my units have mutation after creation ... and i don't have chaos mana ... *confused*

 

[Opera]

I think that some Favourite Civic and Favourite Wonder should be rethinked. They always seem to be the same, as if they were never changed since they were added.