Minor Suggestions Thread

[civ_king]

Modern day America is definitely running Universal Suffrage, although it was more like representation until the 19th amendment, the 15th amendment, and the abolition of property ownership for voting in the early 19th century.

lol, the US is a "Representative Democracy" we are represented by our senators, congressmen/women...

 

[NerfCothons]

How is it later ? State Property and Kremlin are both in the Communism tech.



O_o

- exactly, the idea just doesn't make much sense
- the Statue of Liberty represents freedom and emancipation of the western society, so it does make sense in my eyes
- how easily can you claim that the Kremlin was built under communism ? Very interested in this

-Not every civ runs SP the second it becomes available. The first civ that reaches the communist tech is unlikely to immediately swap to SP, therefore if the Kremlin is only build-able by the first civ to reach the communism tech AND swap to SP this event typically happens later than just the first discovery of the tech. The limitation is merely to ensure that a SP specific bonus is being paired with a civ that is running (at least at one point) SP, so that the wonder is not constantly being built by civs that cannot use it.

-I am not arguing for all, most, many, or even more than one wonder to have civic restrictions. To attack my suggestion on the grounds that civ would be a 'boring and linear' game if many wonders had civic restrictions is a misrepresentation of my origianl argument. It's like saying we should not elect Barack Obama, a black man, as president because if we only elect black men then many qualified white or female candidates would not be allowed to compete. You seem to be arguing that civic restrictions (in the case of the statue of liberty) can seem historically appropriate but harmful to gameplay. I want to change the Kremlin not merely for reasons of historical accuracy but because I believe the current incarnation of the wonder is boring. Therefore I don't believe my suggestion would lead to the harms you suggest.

-I do not claim the Kremlin was built under communism, just that that's when it became a wonder. The Moscow Kremlin was just a palace (in game terms) until it became the symbol for Russian Communism. This is demonstrated already in game because the wonder is constructable only with the discovery of Communism, a tech available in the industrial age, despite the fact that the buildings making up the Kremlin themselves were actually constructed in the 14th-16th centuries.

 

[onedreamer]

-Not every civ runs SP the second it becomes available. The first civ that reaches the communist tech is unlikely to immediately swap to SP, therefore if the Kremlin is only build-able by the first civ to reach the communism tech AND swap to SP this event typically happens later than just the first discovery of the tech.

not in my games.

The limitation is merely to ensure that a SP specific bonus is being paired with a civ that is running (at least at one point) SP, so that the wonder is not constantly being built by civs that cannot use it.

I still don't get what you mean. The Kremlin bonus applies to civ that are running Slavery and/or Universal Suffrage. It has NOTHING to do with State Property, therefore any civ that builds it can use it, even without switching to SP.

To attack my suggestion on the grounds that civ would be a 'boring and linear' game if many wonders had civic restrictions is a misrepresentation of my origianl argument.

I only wrote it in my original answer, why do you carry on ? I already accepted your first reply.

I do not claim the Kremlin was built under communism, just that that's when it became a wonder. The Moscow Kremlin was just a palace (in game terms) until it became the symbol for Russian Communism.

- the Kremlin isn't just a palace but a buildings complex.
- it was very important for the Zars for the whole middle age
- it became famous in the world during the period of strong nationalism, which in Russia also happens to be the period of communism. So the Taj Mahal should be built with Mass Media, because it was elected a world wonder only in the recent poll ?

This is demonstrated already in game because the wonder is constructable only with the discovery of Communism, a tech available in the industrial age, despite the fact that the buildings making up the Kremlin themselves were actually constructed in the 14th-16th centuries.

So you know facts, then if Firaxis screwed up why writing "just a building", why supporting the firaxian and world stereotype of Kremlin actually being the church next to it ?

 

[NerfCothons]

not in my games.

I'm going to chalk that up to player intervention as I imagine you're the first civ to tech communism and are swapping to SP once you do. This is not everyone's strategy.

I still don't get what you mean. The Kremlin bonus applies to civ that are running Slavery and/or Universal Suffrage. It has NOTHING to do with State Property, therefore any civ that builds it can use it, even without switching to SP.

Part of my suggestion was changing the bonus to enable slavery style rushing under SP. So I am changing the wonder's purpose, not just slapping an SP restriction on the current wonder.

I only wrote it in my original answer, why do you carry on ? I already accepted your first reply.

I must have misunderstood your more recent post. My apologies.

the Kremlin isn't just a palace but a buildings complex.
- it was very important for the Zars for the whole middle age
- it became famous in the world during the period of strong nationalism, which in Russia also happens to be the period of communism. So the Taj Mahal should be built with Mass Media, because it was elected a world wonder only in the recent poll ?

So you know facts, then if Firaxis screwed up why writing "just a building", why supporting the firaxian and world stereotype of Kremlin actually being the church next to it ?

Wonder in the civ sense, not wonder in the official list sense. Wonders are tricky because the building itself is usually a symbol for something else. The statue of liberty itself doesn't confer any special advantage, but it represents a commitment to a liberal society. Hence what the Kremlin represents in my eyes is Russia's (the 'building' civ) commitment to their own version of communism (whether you see it as a good thing or a bad thing, I don't want to stir up a political hornets' nest). Even though the building was built earlier it didn't capture an idea that could be encompassed in a wonder until it became the icon of Russian communism, hence it is enabled by the communist tech. So I give firaxis a pass on the minor details like the fact that the wonder you're 'building' should have already existed for a few hundred years, for gameplay's sake .

 

[SadoMacho]

A new independent/barbarian city to add:
Bandar Seri Brunei, capital of the sultanate of Brunei, founing time around 1500, the golden age of the sultanate, just before the contact with the Spanish.

 

[Panopticon]

Change the DLL cities file to discourage AI Byzantines from building Notre Dame. They begin the game with Engineering, as well as access to stone which doubles its building speed, so they seem to beat France to it a lot, even when you stop them from building it until France spawns (because France needs to research Engineering first).

 

[-Perceval-]

This message is for Rhye

Ok, i played some games(and test some things with world editor) and i think(i think) that these changes could be very good for the gameplay. They are realist and little changes. I don't put Big changes because i know that the next version will only be a sort of patch and that we are not going to see big gameplay changes(as you said in the "what shall we reshearch next" topic). So the change are:


-Stronger independants and natives(especially in Shiraz, Samarkand and Chichen Itza in the 600 ad Rfc where they are always destroyed by barbarians and maybe it could be cool to add one city in north america to represent pueblo or sioux and to make the west conquest more realistic and more hard for the USA, add the Bandar Seri Brunei (as sadomacho said) could be interesting too)

-Less probability to collapse but more chance to see some of our cities becoming independants and more chance to see an old civilization come back in our territory if we are unstable.(This could prevent the half world independants when russia or turkish collapse, personally i prefer(and i think it is more fun for the gameplay) to see persia or arabian come back in turkish territory than see the turkish completely collapse).

-Stronger Aztecs (and maybe incans). It could be easy to do it by adding them 2 more units and the paper technology(paper with the astronomy was one of the only thing where the aztecs was equal/superior to the europeans..Do not remove it to them please.Maybe make the calendar more expansive for the other civ could be a good idea too).

-More agressive mongols(espacially against china), in the last version(in 600 ad) they generally still a very weak power during all the game.

-More agressive persia in 3000 bc(to see more greek/persian wars; maybe by adding them mathematics? In all case a persian civ who is more present in the europe politic (instead of persian civ who generally stay in the desert) could be a great thing for the gameplay).

-Maybe more chance to see the civilization build their own wonders (by example france should build notre-dame more frequantly ect...)

-More stable german empire in 600 ad games, they always collapse and be invade by little powers like nederlands and rarely stay in the end of the game(france have this problem sometimes).

-No bonus tech searching for europeans(the proximity of civ is enough and more historically correct. And it will make the other civ(japan, american especially) more dangerous for europeans and more historically correct; see the technological level that american and japanese can attempt today! ps:it not means that they should have a tech bonus; just delete european bonus will be enough)

-maybe add this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=12178)

I know that this is a lot of changes but this is just a suggestion. In all case, i think that this mod stay the better mod for Civilization 4.

 

[SadoMacho]

I made a little mistake, it should be Bandar Brunei

this could be founded as a Muslim city, and maybe even put the oil in the sea on the hill. The Japanese can get oil quicker in this way.

 

[Positronic]

-Stronger Aztecs (and maybe incans). It could be easy to do it by adding them 2 more units and the paper technology(paper with the astronomy was one of the only thing where the aztecs was equal/superior to the europeans..Do not remove it to them please.Maybe make the calendar more expansive for the other civ could be a good idea too).

This would be a welcome addition. Also, has the agriculture penalty enacted on the Mayans been fixed yet? (I think it was AnotherPacifist that first brought it up)

-More agressive mongols(espacially against china), in the last version(in 600 ad) they generally still a very weak power during all the game.

In my games the Mongols often establish the Yuan Dynasty... However, I do agree that they should be more aggressive, particularly in their push westward (it would be nice to see the Mongol yoke controlling Russia once in a while).

-More agressive persia in 3000 bc(to see more greek/persian wars; maybe by adding them mathematics? In all case a persian civ who is more present in the europe politic (instead of persian civ who generally stay in the desert) could be a great thing for the gameplay).

Agreed; in my games, Babylonia often survives on Jerusalem, Sur, and Ninevah for many more years after it should be conquered by the Persians. The Persians are often distracted with India (which inevitably leads to India's early collapse and a lacking of Persia in Mesopotamia).

 

[Deego3]

-Less probability to collapse but more chance to see some of our cities becoming independants and more chance to see an old civilization come back in our territory if we are unstable.(This could prevent the half world independants when russia or turkish collapse, personally i prefer(and i think it is more fun for the gameplay) to see persia or arabian come back in turkish territory than see the turkish completely collapse).

You cant do that because it would make the AI weaker than it already is.

 

[dragodon64]

Some of the food resources in Europe should be coded to appear later (like modern era) instead of right from the start. Nothing huge, just like 1 fish and 1 cow from england, 1 pig from france, 1 cow from germany, etc. Europe's population is way to high in the middle ages, and adding the resouces back in during the last or second to last "resource pop" could represent the areas rapidly increasing population during the 18th and 19th centuries.

 

[rjaco31]

Well, European population was the largest one worldwide during the Middle Ages

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Well, European population was the largest one worldwide during the Middle Ages

Of course not. From wikipedia:
--Even at the height of the Roman Empire, it was only 55 million (of course not counting Germany and Scandinavia).
--At the peak of medieval European population (before the plague) it was between 70-100 million, and it never recovered from the plague until late Renaissance.
--China alone had 60 million at the beginning of the Ming Dynasty (1368) and close to 150 million near the end in the 1600's. And this doesn't even count Japan, India (!), and the Middle East.

 

[Zagoroth]

The European overpopulation really started during the Renaissance, and definitely was evident during the Industrial Revolution. The Renaissance of course brought the Feudal system out of control of Europe, in which there were not many cities but fiefdoms with a castle and a small village of serfs. In the Industrial Revolution what happened was that people went to the cities to work in the factories, the cities increased in size as the population in the cities.

 

[dragodon64]

Of course not. From wikipedia:
--Even at the height of the Roman Empire, it was only 55 million (of course not counting Germany and Scandinavia).
--At the peak of medieval European population (before the plague) it was between 70-100 million, and it never recovered from the plague until late Renaissance.
--China alone had 60 million at the beginning of the Ming Dynasty (1368) and close to 150 million near the end in the 1600's. And this doesn't even count Japan, India (!), and the Middle East.

Not just that, China had ~100 million in 1100, population fell quite a bit from the Mongol
Population of Europe c. 800 was 25-30 million, less than half of the population at the peak of Rome
India reached ~100 million in 1200, if I recall correctly

European population surged from 1000-1200 CE due to increased yields from the triple field system and colonization of uninhabited but fertile lands. Starting in the 15th century, Europe's population steadily increased, but started increasing more rapidly in the late 17th century, which kept up until WWI, when western Europe's population started leveling off then declining.

 

[usi]

Here is the link to Wikipedia's "Historical urban community sizes" article.

Based on the data in the page above, London got more population than Beijing in ca. 1850, and Paris did so in ca. 1875 - much after Renaissance. So, the increase in European population does not seem to have anything related to furtility of the land, but technological advancement.

And it was not simply that only European cities were getting bigger at that time. Ayutthaya (in Thailand) and Edo became much larger than all the European cities listed there (except Istanbul, which was under Turkish control) during ca. 1600 to ca. 1825.

 

[-Perceval-]

Yeah the mongol invasion had impressive consequences!
The pop of baghdad, the most populate city in the world before the mongols has been divided by 2 after the invasion!

 

[Wessel V1]

This is merely an aesthetic request, it wouldn't make any difference to the gameplay AFAIK. Still, I request the Great wall in the 600 AD start to be where it has been historically. IIRC, the GW is, once it is built, not related to borders anymore. So, sea tiles could be used to create a wall where it has been historically, in stead of an entire wall. It's not that important, but it could be nice to have as an aesthetic feature.

 

[Lone Wolf]

There's nothing wrong with having an occasional Islamic Europe, but it happens too often (in 3000BC, of course). I usually just go into the Wordbuilder in such cases, and introduce Christianity to 2-3 European nations, creating an interesting religious confrontation in Europe.

 

[civ_king]

There's nothing wrong with having an occasional Islamic Europe, but it happens too often (in 3000BC, of course). I usually just go into the Wordbuilder in such cases, and introduce Christianity to 2-3 European nations, creating an interesting religious confrontation in Europe.

it happens in basically all of my Emperor America games