"Minorities" in your Community

Is there a large minority population in your town? What's your opinion?


  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .
Really, the difference between "dialect" and "language" is imprecise, the definition consists of lines and boundaries drawn on a smooth continuum of different and where the line gets drawn is often utterly political--often because national languages get constructed by states, rather than being the basis on which a state is formed.

I completely agree.


The only problems with Romanian and Moldovan are that:

1) what Romance language they speak in the region of Moldova is identical in any region of Moldova (and Moldova the region is twice as big as Moldova the country, being currently divided between Romania, the western part, Moldova, the eastern part, and Ukraine, extreme south-east and north-west), so there is NO difference between their way of talking in the Republic of Moldova and the way of talking of people from northeastern Romania (where my family actually happens to be from, although being born in Bucharest - no accent).

2) what they speak there cannot be considered a dialect by any standards, it is an accent, in fact I would venture to say Southern British English is farther to American English than Romanian is to Moldovan. They are fully 100% mutually intelligible, they are written exactly the same (although Moldovan has a Cyrilic variant spelling too). "Moldovan" might use a few old words that have gotten out of use in Romania, and they pronounce their "E"s, "L"s, and "Pi"s funny, apart from that I could not see any difference whatsoever.

Spoiler :
Romanian varieties:

Romania_Graiuri.jpg


As you can see, Romanian is spoken the same in Moldova the Republic, in Moldova the Romanian region, and in the southeast and northwest of Moldova, in the territories taken by the Soviet Union from the Kingdom of Romania in WW2. In fact, if it wasn't for Bucharest's exaggerated population, making up 10% of the country, the Moldovan accent would be the most spoken!!

source of the image: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_language
 
Really, the difference between "dialect" and "language" is imprecise, the definition consists of lines and boundaries drawn on a smooth continuum of different and where the line gets drawn is often utterly political--often because national languages get constructed by states, rather than being the basis on which a state is formed.

True.

If Moravia or Silesia were separate countries, or even if they were cores around which nation-state were constructed (I'm right in assuming Bohemia and Prague are the "core" of the Czech Republic the same way Paris is to France, aren't I? Is standard Czech based on a Prague dialect? Or is it more like a German situation where the standard isn't really the dialect of anyone?),

The German case seem to be closer to the real situation in the Czech Rep. Bohemia and Moravia(+Silesia, the tiny part of it that is part of the Czech Rep.) have almost the same population. From my experience, there are fewer distinct dialects in Bohemia than in Moravia. People from Prague and the central Bohemia can be easily distinguished because of their soft accent and there are certain language traits present in Bohemia which are not used in Moravia.

Moravia is more complicated and the dialects there are stronger and more diverse. As in Bohemia, there are some language traits typical for Moravia, by which the Bohemians can distinguish people who came from there.

The thing is that because of the rougly same population, it's hard to tell what's the "real Czech". The literary form of the language isn't spoken by anybody and that what you call "standard" Czech (spoken by politicans, journalists, TV and radio reporters, professors etc.) isn't spoken by common people in either part of the country. Of course both claim that their dialect is closer to the "real Czech" :lol:

I bet there'd be more people calling Moravian or Silesian a different language, kinda like with Bulgarian and Macedonian or, I assume, Mirc's example of Moldavian and Romanian.

Well, we consider Slovak as a different language, despite the fact most Czechs understand 98% of it without any problem at all. It's because the grammar is different from the Czech one. Most Czech dialects only use some flavor words and phrases, but the grammer is essentially the same.

If the Romanian and Moldovan grammar is the same as well as most of the vocabulary, then it's the same language.

The most extreme examples of politics dictating language definition are, on the excessive separation side, Serbian vs Croatian and Hindi vs Urdu. On the excessive unification side, the designation of Cantonese and Mandarin as dialects of "Chinese" when they're more different than Portuguese and Castillian Spanish, is pretty farcical from a linguistic perspective. There's also the case where two languages are probably just one language with multiple standard forms, like Macedonian and Bulgarian probably are.

Agreed.

Linguistically speaking, mutual intelligibility is the key to the dialect vs language definition,

I'd stick with the grammar definition. Because otherwise Czech and Slovak would have to be considered as one language.

but even then that's hazy. Villagers in border towns in Portugal can understand their neighbours on the Spanish side of the border, and they can understand their neighbours, and so forth, all the way across Spain and France and into Italy. But the standard forms in each capital aren't mutually intelligible and a villager in Portugal couldn't, say, understand a villager in Aragón.

People from Prague and Kosice understand each other pretty well, despite they speak different languages.

Am I right in thinking there's actually a similar fuzzy continuum between standard Czech and standard Polish running between Silesia and Moravia? If you were to travel across Moravia and Silesia into Poland proper, at what point would the locals' language become unintelligible to you?

Somewhere at the border ;) There is really no slow transition. I mean, yes - people in Northern Moravia, the Czech Silesia or whatever you want to call it, speak a different dialect (they have a very distinct accent and use different words, some of them taken from Polish), but you can understand them pretty well. Then you cross the border and the people speak Polish. You don't understand them naturally, you have to really try and put your brain into work until you realize what they're saying. The grammar is different, they use archaic (from Czech point of view) sentence composition, the written form is entirely different etc. The transition is pretty sharp even at the Czech-Slovak border, the difference there is that we understand Slovaks much better.

There is a great deal of similarity between the Slavic languages though, I've been able to communicate with Poles, Croats, Serbs and Russians, at a basic level.
 
If the Romanian and Moldovan grammar is the same as well as most of the vocabulary, then it's the same language.

It's not only the same language. It's the same dialect. It's a different accent.

Wikipedia said:
[...]

The difference between the language spoken in Chişinău and Iaşi and the language spoken for example in Bucharest could be roughly compared to that between Standard British and Scottish or American English.


I guess the "black hole" in the middle is the Hungarian language pocket...?

Yeah. :) As well as the small little holes on the border with Hungary. I doubt the hole goes that far south, but I doubt that Romanian is as spread in Serbia as it's shown, too (I mean mainly the northern red point in Serbia, which is just a few towns and villages as far as I know).

The "Black hole" in Moldova is Gagauzia, an autonomous region, where they speak a Turkic language. :)
 
I've found this on the Czech Wiki:

350px-Czech_dialects.PNG


Yellow - Czech dialects, the rest are various other Moravian dialects.

In case you're wondering why the border regions are grey, see this map. These are the "post-german" areas, which were resettled with people from all around Czechoslovakia.
 
I must add that the dialects of czech Silesia, apart from Zaolzie region, are so-called Lach dialects, their origin being Silesian, thus polish, but got czechised through history. Yet, they are in the middle between czech - moravian and polish - silesian dialects. So there used to be continuum, a steady growth of differences as you move, lets say, from Brno to Rybnik.

In Poland, the key word is Lechitic language. There were three lechitic languages, which share much of linguistic history:
- Polish
- Pomeranian
- Polabian.
Polabians used to live in Pomerania, but moved west and now are extinct. Pomeranian was something between polish and polabian. Today only Kashubian is left of it. Some argue it is a polish dialect, but it is considered a separate language.
The dialects include
- Major Polish
- Minor Polish
- Silesian
- Masovian
- Kujawy-Kociewie-Warmia dialect
- north-east borderlands
- south-east borderlands
and there's literary language.
Literary language was a dialect to none, and it is not sure what was it based on. Probably minor polish or major polish dialect, some say masovian. Today almost all dialects are de facto extinct. You can easily recognise a person from the east, because of their accent. You can recognise highlanders. And you can recognise a Silesian. Silesian dialect is the most archaic of all, it's sort of Polish as it was in XVI century + german loanwords, which mostly came there in XIX and XX centuries (emmigrants from Silesia from early XIX century, their offspring that is, speak silesian without german loanwords).
Most of people, like me, speak without any dialect or accent. But only when I moved to Warsaw and I lived there for a couple of years I've noticed people in my area often speak with silesian accent (not necessarily in dialect, but with an accent).
 
Well, Perth isn't nearly as multicultural as Sydney is...

We got lots of minorities tho, and I'm pretty happy about it (My partner is an ethnically Hokkien Chinese Malaysian)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perth,_Western_Australia#Ethnic_groups

Lots of Brits unsurprisingly (not that that's a bad thing), but thankfully no shortage of other cultures even if it is a mostly Anglo-Celtic city...

Mainly Indian, Chinese and Italian in terms of minorities, with smaller but vibrant South-Eastern European communities, and an awful lot of South Africans (Always fun when the Springboks come to town) :)

If anything I'd like more multiculturism in Perth... strangely enough the food isn't that big a deal for me, but that could be because the missus cooks better Chinese food than a lot of the restaurants make... :lol:
 
I've actually only spoke to one black guy in my entire life- he asked me the way to the Tesco supermarket. A harrowing experience, I can tell you!

At my year at school, there was maybe one minority kid (Chinese/Indian/Phillipino) per 50 others and they'd lived in the UK for virtually all of their lives as far as I could tell.

Poles are here in large enough numbers for me to be able to buy Kubus in the newsagents, but not enough for me to actually have to speak to any in person in my day-to-day life which I think is the sweet spot for minorities to be at.
 
I've actually only spoke to one black guy in my entire life- he asked me the way to the Tesco supermarket. A harrowing experience, I can tell you!

At my year at school, there was maybe one minority kid (Chinese/Indian/Phillipino) per 50 others and they'd lived in the UK for virtually all of their lives as far as I could tell.

Poles are here in large enough numbers for me to be able to buy Kubus in the newsagents, but not enough for me to actually have to speak to any in person in my day-to-day life which I think is the sweet spot for minorities to be at.

surely you've encountered the Catholic minority at some stage?
 
To answer the original question:

I live in the greater Oslo area, which is where most immigrants in Norway live -- 25% of the population in the city proper is of non-Norwegian ancestry, and in the surrounding county of Akershus it's about 10%. It's an interesting mix; the largest minority is now Polish as they've come to outnumber the Pakistanis, Swedes, Iraqis, Somalians, Vietnamese, Danes, Germans, etc. (in that order).

All in all I approve of this multiculturalism. It's not all sunny; in some cases there are cultural differences which cause genuine problems (the Somalian minority is the one that most often fits the "welfare parasite" stereotype) and there are always some troublesome gangs of disaffected youths grouped along ethnic lines (but juvenile crime and gang violence is still not as bad here as it was in the 1930s or even 1950s, when the gangs were all-Norwegian and organized along neighbourhood lines).

However, recent studies show that youths of non-European minority backgrounds are doing just about as well as the majority when it comes to getting educated, getting jobs, and staying out of trouble -- those relatively few who do drop out and wind up in gangs or on welfare or whatever only dent the statistics by a tiny amount. So, we're getting a bunch of doctors, bus drivers, nurses, engineers, plumbers and other useful people, and fast food has become far more varied and interesting than it was a few decades ago.

The much-heralded cultural war between those scary conservative Muslims and European modernity is in fact being fought -- the battle lines are drawn between some Muslims and some other Muslims. By and large, the younger generation is far more liberal and liberated than their parents. Nothing for the rest of us to be afraid of.
 
surely you've encountered the Catholic minority at some stage?
Well yes, obviously. My sister lives with one. But Irish catholics hardly count as a minority in Ireland (although they are definitely in the wee small digits up here in Coleraine). I would call them "the other majority".
 
OKAY! AL_DA_GREAT AND J_EPS! BOTH OF YOU STOP FREAKING THREADJACKING RIGHT NOW! :mad::mad::mad::mad:

Ahem. I will report both of you.

Anyways, nice to see all the inter-ethnic love going on! keep 's the world turning IMO. :goodjob:

I will comply with his request. If you really want to continue any further, PM me. Note that I am not giving up, nor does this mean "i lost".

back to the thread: this is the age of globalization. I can call rogers (canadian company), and wind up hearing how the weather is in Delhi. I have freedom to move almost anywhere in the world (i'm sure some countries wouldn't want me, but most would), and i return that freedom back, and as such anyone can move to canada for opportunity it provides.
 
Really, the difference between "dialect" and "language" is imprecise

I thought the distinction was made pretty clear a long time ago; Language has its own Army and Navy, while Dialects do not.
 
Amusing, but what about Basque!
 
In Katowice, it is around 97% white, 1% vietnamese, 1 % Turkish, 1% African Poles.

Don't know if that is the exact number, but sure it seems like that. We keep on getting Blacks and Turks in Poland, as well as Vietnamese, but the viet's are almost fully integretted into Polish culture imo so i don't think they are worth mentioning much.
 
They're not black. Duh.
 
Most everyone around here is white. I'd say 90% of the population is white.

There's two hispanics in my ward at church, and then there's me, the "other".

Same goes for school. I'm the only minority in three out of five of my classes. I'd say four classes, but I don't think a flute lesson really counts. There's two african americans in the other class and that's about it.

Edit: Wiki says 87% of this town is white as of 2000
 
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