Miscellaneous modding questions

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Feb 13, 2010
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798
First question.

I would like to disable communications trading and would like to know how this would effect the game, beyond the obvious of that a civ would have to meet other civs to communicate with them. Is there any unexpected side effects of disabling this?
 
First question.

I would like to disable communications trading and would like to know how this would effect the game, beyond the obvious of that a civ would have to meet other civs to communicate with them. Is there any unexpected side effects of disabling this?

I gave you an quick explanation in the other thread you asked about this. You go to Rules editing, then the "Civilization Advances" tab, then scroll down to printing press, and uncheck the box for communication trading. Save your new .biq as whatever name you like, make sure it is in your conquests-->scenarios folder, and then you can play it.

Probably none, the AI might be weaker since they might not meet each other until a lot later in the game and thus will not trade. I would not bother really...
 
I gave you an quick explanation in the other thread you asked about this. You go to Rules editing, then the "Civilization Advances" tab, then scroll down to printing press, and uncheck the box for communication trading. Save your new .biq as whatever name you like, make sure it is in your conquests-->scenarios folder, and then you can play it.

And my response there:

Thanks, but I know how to do it (I stupidly gave communications trading to one of the AA advances in the mod ), I just wondered if it did more than the obvious in the game. The way this game is programed, it's not unusual to change something and have other things changed that were unexpected.

Probably none,

I would expect the same, but past experience says it's best to ask. ;) :lol:

the AI might be weaker since they might not meet each other until a lot later in the game and thus will not trade.

That's more the kind of info I'm looking for here. If they don't trade with each other until they PHYSICALLY meet, I can live with that. That is what happened historically. Does it inhibit an already pathetic AI? How much so? In the mod I'm messing with, the AI have had no problem outstripping the player civ in research. How much of this is due to tech trades derived from this communications trading thing? How much is due to other stuff?

Given the amount and kind of cheats this game has been programed with, disabling communications trading may have no affect whatsoever on AI behavior, and just limit the player further.

I would not bother really...

Then don't. :rolleyes:
 
That's more the kind of info I'm looking for here. If they don't trade with each other until they PHYSICALLY meet, I can live with that. That is what happened historically. Does it inhibit an already pathetic AI? How much so? In the mod I'm messing with, the AI have had no problem outstripping the player civ in research. How much of this is due to tech trades derived from this communications trading thing? How much is due to other stuff?

Given the amount and kind of cheats this game has been programed with, disabling communications trading may have no affect whatsoever on AI behavior, and just limit the player further.

Then don't. :rolleyes:

Well it is hard to quantify, if they meet early on there will be basically no difference. If some AIs don't meet other until the industrial or later, whoever is the tech broker between them could make a serious amount of cash. I'd love to trade in a situation like that, it would make the game a lot easier. This would be like having two isolated continents that you have contact with (usually by suicide galley). You can broker techs for $$$ until they meet.

I didn't ;)
 
Well it is hard to quantify, if they meet early on there will be basically no difference. If some AIs don't meet other until the industrial or later, whoever is the tech broker between them could make a serious amount of cash. I'd love to trade in a situation like that, it would make the game a lot easier. This would be like having two isolated continents that you have contact with (usually by suicide galley). You can broker techs for $$$ until they meet.

Those are "ifs". But first meeting a civ (edit: physically) before you could trade with them would make the game more dynamic ;) And ah...god forbid..more historically accurate :lol: Would this mess up the AI, or would they take it in stride? That's why I posed the question. Solid info requested, please.


You are a modder, I take it.;)

Edit:

Let me explain my views a little better here. I was still rattled from a frustrating and expensive day when I wrote the above posts. When the civs all meet through this communications trading and then start trading their advances, then the player is met with a bunch of relatively similar AI civs. There are those left behind, but a large group of them will all be at the same tech level. That doesn't make for a lot of variation for the player to encounter. I'd rather the AI have more differences among themselves, so they don't seem to be all the same civ, with just a different leaderhead. Preventing the AI doing all these trades until they physically meet each other should make a little more variance among the AI civs. If disabling communications trading, or postponing it till the modern era, when everybody has already met each other, only effects the game in that way, I can live with that. If there are other things that happen which would hamstring the AI in ways I hadn't thought of, or if this causes other problems in the game, then maybe it's not such a great idea. But, it would be useful to know exactly what those effects are, if there are any.
 
New question: this time about how the AI uses of land artillery.

I remember this being discussed here a year or two ago, and some people doing some tests that yielded positive results. But when I tried to find the threads, via the search facility, I couldn't find the threads on AI use of artillery units.

In my own modding, I've managed to get the AI to build artillery units, but I wasn't able to get them to bombard player units. The AI artillery would sit in their cities and when the player approached, the AI artillery didn't bombard the player units. On the rare event of encountering AI artillery outside a city, the AI still wouldn't bombard.

I remember there was talk of giving artillery "king" and "blitz" unit abilities and some other things were done, but I don't remember how the AI was persuaded to use artillery.
 
scratch, probably, this one will be helpful, at least a starting point.

As for my own experience - I failed to provoke AI to use artillery offensively, but it does use catapults to bombard human player units from its cities when player moves their units on the appropriate territory.
 
scratch, probably, this one will be helpful, at least a starting point.

As for my own experience - I failed to provoke AI to use artillery offensively, but it does use catapults to bombard human player units from its cities when player moves their units on the appropriate territory.

That's one of the threads I was looking for, many thanks.
 
As to your first Q. -It seems to cause a slight reduction of between turn time (in addition to already mentioned). Second Q.- I think I saw that artillery w/charm will attack? A hit will reduce defense stat 1/2.
 
As to your first Q. -It seems to cause a slight reduction of between turn time (in addition to already mentioned). Second Q.- I think I saw that artillery w/charm will attack? A hit will reduce defense stat 1/2.

Thanks. :)

Will any hit by artillery bombardment reduce defense of the hit unit by half? Or is this some effect of this CHARM thing? I'm still looking to find out what CHARM is. :confused:
 
Re artillery.

Giving them a range of 4 or more will increase how much the AI uses the artillery. It doesn't make them move them out of cities but they will fire on you from cities with them A LOT!

Also, Tom discovered that if you set one of the barbarian units as an artillery unit of some kind and it is captured by the AI then the AI will use that artillery unit aggressively to attack you. This has only limited use of course and they AI does not upgrade these captured artillery units. Also, I belive they AI will not move artillery pieces into other civs territory (I think I read that somewhere).
 
Thanks. :)

Will any hit by artillery bombardment reduce defense of the hit unit by half? Or is this some effect of this CHARM thing? I'm still looking to find out what CHARM is. :confused:

It is some bizarre fragment of code that got left in but you can still put it on units. You might need steph's editor for this. If it hits it halves a unit's defensive value and does some other odd things I think.
 
nick0515, creamcheese & Ozymandias

Thanks for the replies. They help a lot. The 4 tile range artillery probably wouldn't work with the epic game. One would need a map 4 times the largest size. :D But there might be a way to do this without that long range. I'll have to do some testing sometime. CHARM could prove useful as some sort of alternate type of unit like siege engines, strategic bombers, terror attacks and bio/chem warfare type units. For ships, it might be useful to represent bomb ketches, a sailing ship armed with mortars for shore bombardment which was useless for naval warfare against other ships. I had wondered if CHARM was something already in the game which I didn't know about, so it's good to find out it wasn't implemented, but can be modded in.
 
scratch, a couple things to add:
1) I created a huge world map (362x114 - 362 is the upper limit size) & increased distances between some objects (islands, primarily) - people dislike it (1), it does look a bit strange (2). I already fixed it in my map (with a dozen of other minor fixes), because ->
2) take a look into the "Rise and Fall of Roman Empire" scenario. A great realization of artillery unit (for example, if archer has a bombardment ability - I mean it's an artillery unit) example. This changed my mind, probably, will affect you too. ;)
 
scratch, a couple things to add:
1) I created a huge world map (362x114 - 362 is the upper limit size) & increased distances between some objects (islands, primarily) - people dislike it (1), it does look a bit strange (2). I already fixed it in my map (with a dozen of other minor fixes), because ->

I downloaded your map. Nice job. I like the idea of using coast tiles for some rivers to make these usable by sea units. I did the same thing many years ago when I made an earth map for Civ2.

2) take a look into the "Rise and Fall of Roman Empire" scenario. A great realization of artillery unit (for example, if archer has a bombardment ability - I mean it's an artillery unit) example. This changed my mind, probably, will affect you too. ;)

I tried downloading that scenario, the site said there was a 1 minute wait, but I gave up after waiting 5 minutes for the download to start. I'll have to remember not to use Atomic Gamer if I ever upload a scenario. So I wasn't able to see what they did with the artillery units.

The way I modded the archer types is I gave them a defensive bombard equal to their offense factor. I can see giving archers offensive bombard in small scale scenarios where tiles represent distances of a couple of hundred metres or so, but on large scale maps, the distances are too much. Plus, if archers are given offensive bombard, other missile/gun troops should also have it. Can you imagine the AI trying to cope with so many offensive bombard units? :eek:
 
The trick in RFRE was & is composite:
1) archers/javelineers attacking factor = 4 for velites (legion defense factor = 8 for reference, IIRC), so "bombarding" units can skirmish main troops, bringing some damage. If main unit is damaged already - kill it, if possible. It made as the regular attack - which AI handles good enough. Adequate? IMHO, yes. But a new question: how these bombarding units will survive a fight against heavily protected main troops?
2) "Bombarding" units move 2 tiles per turn. So these units cannot win a battle against main unit (1 on 1) - but it's not the goal of these units. Their goal - to bring a damage and they'll bring it, then retreat. If you played Rome:Total War, you noticed light armored troops move faster than heavy ones. Adequate? Both yes, IMHO.
3) Velites have bombardment range = 0 in RFRE, but ROF = 1. This means they'll bombard units attacking the stack, which includes velites, only. Adequate? IMHO - yes. For archers bombardment range may be = 1. It's for play testing.
4) One more thing to notice - it's impossible to defend with bombarding units only since their defense factor is very low (= 1 in RFRE, attack = 4, just to remind you) so they should be protected, especially from mounted units they can't escape from.

So this seems to me a good idea, and handled by AI - important too.

I don't know how this idea can be applied to the siege machines (catapults, if we got into the ancient times) - but it's possible to limit player with the number of them via auto-production. I do know - a lot of bombarding tools in human player's hands is a tragedy for AI. :)

Don't use IE. Use Mozilla Firefox. I had no problems with downloading any file, seems such kind of troubles is browser issue, not server. MF version 8.0 already available & free.
 
Wolfshade

Those RFRE stats sound similar to what I have been experimenting with. The Roman times equivalent units I call Iron Age and there are 4 foot unit types.

A heavy infantry type: 5 off - 5 def - 2 move - off AI strat.
A light infantry type: 5 off - 3 def - 3 move - off AI strat. - amphibious.
A defensive/garrison type: 3 off - 5 def - 2 move - def AI strat.
Archer type: 4 off - 1 def - 4 def bomb - 3 move - off/def AI strat.
The artillery unit: preliminary stats, 3 off - 4 def - 6 bomb/1 ran/1 rof - 2 move - wheeled movement/lethal sea bomb. The AI strat. is not decided, since I am still experimenting trying to get the AI to use them.

The CHARM stuff might work out for use as siege towers or units similar for the attack of cities only.

The movement is different in the mod than in a regular game and those move figures are for road movement. Cross country, the heavy inf. and garrison types are limited to 1 move. The light inf and archer types can use 3 move on plains, grass and flood plains, but are also limited to 1 move on the other terrain types. The artillery cross country move is limited to 1 in those types they can travel in without roads.

I was using Firefox when I tried downloading the mod earlier. Maybe their servers were busy or something. I'll try again later.
 
I see your experiment with movement. I thought about it too, but rejected - since it'll be brilliant result, but the mechanics inside will be overcomplicated, IMO - so was a decision to try without it, yet (probably).

The CHARM stuff might work out for use as siege towers or units similar for the attack of cities only.
Not sure. City population is limited, and charm has effect 1 turn only.

wheeled movement/lethal sea bomb.
Not sure about the lethal see bombardment. Any catapult/ballista won't fire a rock/arrow of appropriate weight over so long distance - seems like. And, OK if ship is close to the shore - it means it'll unload troops - and artillery should be in the safe place (safe as possible, of course). Probably I'm mistaken somewhere?
 
I see your experiment with movement. I thought about it too, but rejected - since it'll be brilliant result, but the mechanics inside will be overcomplicated, IMO - so was a decision to try without it, yet (probably).

The movement part of the mod is one of the areas that has worked very well. The foot units I mentioned before are the slowest land units, horse units and early wheeled units mostly move 4-6. Later mechanized units can move up to around 12. These are all road moves, with roads being set to subtract 1 move per tile in the editor. Each terrain type has their own move factor. For example, plains use up 3 move, deserts 4 move, hills 5 move, jungle, something around 8 move. For some unit types, I gave them the move as roads ability for some of the terrain types, such as the light infantry above in plains, grass & flood plain terrain. The real surprise was that the AI was able to use these changes. In fact, the AI kicks butt :lol: It's one area where I was able to improve AI performance and make them more of a challenge.

Not sure. City population is limited, and charm has effect 1 turn only.

I was under the impression using CHARM would make a unit that could attack buildings only, provided the buildings had "CHARM barrier" checked, and that CHARM equipped units would be able to attack buildings as long as there was at least one left with that barrier setting checked. I figure, make all regular buildings (not wonders) "CHARM barriers" and these CHARM equipped siege engines would then be able to attack the city's buildings till they are all destroyed. I had though of just making city walls "CHARM barriers", but walls are only useful for towns. In my games I hardly ever build walls because they go obsolete so quickly. I notice that few AI towns I attack ever have walls, also. So a unit designed to be a wall breaker would be a waste.

Not sure about the lethal see bombardment. Any catapult/ballista won't fire a rock/arrow of appropriate weight over so long distance - seems like. And, OK if ship is close to the shore - it means it'll unload troops - and artillery should be in the safe place (safe as possible, of course). Probably I'm mistaken somewhere?

The main limitation would be being able to hit a moving ship with a catapult. That would be tough. But the missiles thrown would be more than enough to sink a vessel. Especially one of the oared ships which were very lightly built. They had to be that way to keep the weight down so oars could move them about adequately. The Greek trireme had hull and deck planking of between 1 and 2 inches thick pine. You can kick a hole in this with your boot :eek: A typical catapult projectile was 8-20 lbs, which would easily punch right through the side or the deck and bottom of a galley and sink it. The cargo ships, being sailing ships and having to carry heavy loads, were more stoutly built, and would be harder to sink. In Classical and Roman times, there were catapults capable of throwing 150 lb rocks and ballistas capable throwing missiles 20 feet long and a foot thick. No ship in existence then could stand up to such projectiles. Alexander mounted siege towers and catapults on ships (barges essentially) for attacking a coastal city. His descendants mounted these weapons on ships also. A couple of the ships being famous, and huge, larger than an 18th century fist rate.

Eventually, I would like to incorporate all of these in the mod I'm playing around with. Giving these ancient bombard weapons a sea unit killing ability is also useful in making shore bombardment more risky and adds to the game play some that way. I've found the AI have no problems using ship mounted bombard weapons to attack land and sea units, cities and even terrain improvements. If I can get them to use land bombard units against bombarding ship units, that would be great, and using lethal sea bombardment appears to encourage this from what others have found of AI use of artillery. There could also be an area for CHARM ship units, to mimic Alexander's siege barges, for example. All this needs to be tested. This is part of the reason I was interested in find the material recently discovered about getting the AI to use bombarding, in addition to making land artillery units the AI could use.
 
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