MLDR004 NOW and Again

Hey guys,

Just wanted to let you know that I 'got' it. I'll be reviewing everything tonight and be finishing up in the AM. We're at 10 turns still, right?
 
Turn 0 -- 1340 AD

Since no one advised otherwise, I attempted to steal Medicine from Cathy. We failed, she's pissed and declares war.

I auto-raze Kazan and get 685 gold?!?!? Wow ...

I send an Elite Hussar out from Golgouen to take a stab at Krasnoyark ...

and get a Great Leader, Schwarzenegger! Er, I mean Schwarzenburg! I rush him back to Golgouen...what the devil do I do with him?

Ok, guys, I'm not going to continue yet until I get some feedback. Here are the options:

1) Get the Vikings in the war against Russia for Saltpetre. Pro: Russia we'll ignore us until we make peace (except maybe in Golgouen). Con: Russia might be strong enough to finish them off, thus making it tougher when we have to seriously face the Russians.

2) Get the Arabs in the war against Russia for Dyes. Pro: Russia will be more or less smashed. Con: We'll be making the Arabs stronger.

3) Fight a phony war versus the Russians and make peace asap.

Also, seriously, what do I do with Schwarzenburg? Rush a Hussar? Rush a Galleon? I seriously don't want to keep him around too long as it'll make it harder for us to get another.

Finally, do I take a stab at the island of Tver'?

I'll wait roughly five-six hours for a response...
 
Rush a Hussar? Rush a Galleon?
Military leaders can't rush military! Either make an army, or a needed building.
 
The problem is, the leader is in a city on an island several turns away from the mainland. Do I build a Temple (what we're currently building)? An army wouldn't make much sense, as we'd have precious little to put into it...
 
It looks as though we should just use the GL to form an empty army in Goigouen. If eventually we can get the army to our mainland and fill it up, well and good; if not, at least we'll have restored our ability to generate further Great Leaders.

Speaking generally, the "conquering A will make B stronger" argument has never concerned me much, except early in the game, because I don't find that the AI exploits recently acquired territory very effectively. Getting the Vikings into our war against Russia thus looks like a good idea to me. I'm not as sure about involving the Arabs, but only because the dyes might help them too much.

I'd leave Tver alone unless you assess the risk of losing ground units on the sea voyage as almost zero.
 
One way to rush a unit with a leader (at least up to 100 shields) is to form an empty army and disband it in the desired city. Since an army costs 400 shields to build with the military acadamy, disbanding it gives 100 shields which can be transferred to a unit build.

Edit: Maybe for a more expensive unit you could rush a palace with the leader and switch? (ie for battleships or ICBMs)
 
I'm really sorry but I have to ask for at least one skip, I'm burried in work and there is no way I can play civ in the next one or two weeks.:(
 
I am back online with a good connection. I will be able to take my next turn in line...lets get those French...and Russians

Official hitlist:
Hittite - gone.
Iroquois - gone.
Persia - hanging on by a thumbnail.
France - In the fire
Russia
Arabs
Scandinavia

Arizona_Steve (On Deck)
Meldor
Northern Pike
Belisar (Skipped)
ChrTh (working on it)
 
Hey guys,

Just an update, I should have the turns completed within 12 hours. I may not take the full 10 if I find that it won't let me get the game back in a timely manner, but I'll try. Not sure how much of a headway I'm going to get against France...
 
Turn 0 -- 1340 AD Continued

I get the Danes involved against Kievan Rus for Saltpetre

I decide to turn Schwarzenegger into an Army and disband him to build a Hussar to replace the Elite that is likely about to die (it redlined getting us Schwarzenegger)...in the end, seems like a waste of time, huh?

The builds look ok. I'll leave the Palace alone, and I won't start the Army yet in Vienna (it only gets us 20 turns for prebuild)

IT:
The redlined Hussar lives!

Turn 1 -- 1345 AD
Work exclusively on gathering troops towards Grand River and completing the railnet.

IT:
A Cossack approaches Golgouen

Turn 2 -- 1350 AD
Our Hussar loses to the Cossack :wallbash: ... a Longbowman finishes off the job.

Troops still assembling ...

The Arabians have Infantry! BTW, it appears our Trade Reputation has been destroyed...

IT:
Nada

Turn 3 -- 1355 AD
My naval luck, in place since I started playing Civ I, once again shows up when a galley dispatches a caravel. :rolleyes:

The first galleon of our noble France-Crushing force is in the water and is on its way!

IT:
A russian Frigate sinks assaulting one of our Frigates!

Turn 4 -- 1360 AD
Some more ships are ready to go...
The thinnet is complete.

Turn 5 -- 1365 AD
Worker movements, mostly.

Ok, I'm going to have to pass it on here (wife is sick). Not much happened. I was thinking of starting the landing, but I feel our invasion force was probably too small to start. I'll have to leave it to Steve in order to get the invasion going.

Joan, the face that launched a thousand ships!

The save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MLDR4_1365AD.SAV
 
Miscellaneous points:

1. The palace prebuild will complete in Graz in nineteen turns, and we're still three techs away from ToE. Perhaps the time has come to MM Graz for lower shield production.

2. Our attempts to steal techs have been failing miserably, and now our only player with a history of success at tech thefts has asked for a couple of skips. ;) Possibly we should just buy the next two techs from the Arabs for cash, unpleasant though it would be to enrich them. The hoard of 2518 gold we've got right now gets us to "doubt" with the Arabs.

3. We can get to 400 gpt by hiring taxmen in our totally corrupt cities from Spielberg on north until towns stuck at size six or size twelve have no surplus food, and towns not stuck have two surplus food. This total should increase quickly, too, as we develop our corrupt cities towards the ideal condition (not possible in all cases, of course) in which half their citizens are working railed, irrigated grassland tiles and half are collecting taxes.

4. Moedling, which is definitely redeemable as a productive city, and Steyr, which might be, should switch from temples to courthouses.
 
(0) Inherited Turn:
I check out Military Advisor and note that we have five galleons, two frigates and three caravals. That should get a substantial force over to France, so my first priority is to get them in position to ferry troops across. There's already a good number of ships in Grand River, but why is there a fully loaded galleon sitting duck in French territory to the East?
I go through our cities, adding taxmen to corrupt size six plus cities.
Science-wise, the Arabs are running away with the game, and are the only ones that we could steal tech from. They will not sell us either Medicine or Electricity. I could :hammer: it out of Russia, but with their envoy refusing to see us, I can't tell what techs they have. We have 2518 gold in the treasury, but it costs over 2,700 to carefully steal a tech from the Arabs. I will wait a turn.

IBT:
A Persian caraval attacks our "sitting duck" Galleon, and is sunk, while redlining our ship.
Viallach gains a marketplace, and I switch it's tiles to maximum growth. I'll switch it to Galleon, although everything will take forever to build there.
Arabia starts Theory of Evolution.

(1) 1370AD
Kitzbuehel founded.
ChrTh has done a great job of organizing the wokers into railroading groups, and I can get nearly all the area around Vienna railroaded this turn.
We have 2,900 gold in the bank, so I try a careful tech steal from Arabia. And we succeed! We now have the secrets of Electricity. Two more techs and I can switch to TOE. These guys also have Replacable Parts. Russia will also talk, and are also up to Replacable Parts. They are willing to accept peace, but we have an ongoing alliance with the Viking for another 14 turns.

IBT:
Persia and Scadinavia sign a peace treaty. A Persian galley passes our galleon, but doesn't attack.

(2) 1375AD
A positioning turn. Three more galleons will arrive at Grand River in the next couple of turns, and then the attack on France can begin in earnest.

IBT:
France begins Universal Suffrage. Don't they realize they're meant to be at war?
Persia comes grovelling for peace.
And Persia briefly gets a second city as Samaria decides that they want to be Persian. Bunch-o-losers. Glad I didn't sign the peace treaty.

(3) 1380AD
I Activate one of our armies and take back Samaria from the stinking Persians.
Another three galleons are loaded with troops. We have eight ships loaded now, hopefully this will be enough to get a beachead.

IBT:
Nothing.

(4) 1385AD
Our frigate can't even sink a Persian galley.
Sail across the channel and unload a bunch of troops next to Grenoble. Four additional musketmen are following to secure the city.

IBT:
Russia completes Universal Suffrage. TOE may be a problem.
The French have a LOT of troops, and we lose two muskets. I count at least 40 troops, arranged in three SODs.

(5) 1390AD
Even if I can take Grenoble there is no way I can guard against the counterattacks. So I load the troops back onto the ships and wait for reinforcements. I switch the five coastal cities nearest to Grand River to galleon, and rush 'em. There's already a bunch of troops present that I can load into them.

IBT:
France lands a bunch of troops next to Goiguoen. I doubt if the city will hold, but hopefully we'll take out a few of their troops and leave the remainder stranded (the AI is very bad about picking up it's troops).
Arabia demands dyes. I cave, as I'd rather keep them off my back with so many shiploads of troops floating around.

(6) 1395AD
Load lotsa troops onto boats, ready for a second attempt.
The French have two cavalry, one knight, four MDI and one musketeer next to Goiguoen. We have a 2/5 elite hussar and two musketmen inside the walled city.

IBT:
We take down a cavalry and three MDI before the Goiguoen is captured.
One of our supplies of coal is exausted, but a new one appears next to Eisenstadt.

(7) 1400AD
More movement of troops and ships. We're back at 2,900 gold again so it's time for another tech steal from Arabia. And again I succeed, and we have Medicine.

IBT:
Nada.

(8) 1405AD
More movement.

IBT:
Riots break out everywhere. Ugh. I realize that we lost a luxury at Goiguen. Too many cities to check. I catch a lot of them via scroll-forward.

(9) 1410AD
Umm no. We didn't lose a luxury at Goiguoen. Did a deal end or something?
I give Medicine to Ragnor in exchange for furs.
13 shiploads of troops move next to Grenoble. And would you believe there's a worker on the hill where I wanted to offload our troops? I stumble on a bug where I attempted to capture the French worker with a hussar. Of course he couldn't move, but I then hit fortify (to fortify him on the ship), and to my surprise, he galloped out of the ship and captured the worker! Another 44 troops (plus a settler) are offloaded onto the same hill.

IBT:
All hell breaks lose. What must be the entire French army attacks our landing party. In the midst of it all, the Great Leader Frederick appears. I watch for what seems like forever as Frenchman after Frenchman attacks our stack. At the end of it all, our Great Leader survives.

(10) 1415AD
We do have a bunch of cannon, but if I fire them on Grenoble, it will leave them exposed to capture. I count six uninjured hussars. After a few attempts to take the city I give up and move the remaining troops back to the boats.

It looks like we need to get infantry before we can establish a beachead. I've got us moving in that direction with successful steals of Electricity and Medicine. If we can get Scientific Method before TOE is built we have a good chance of getting it.

Still no French beachead...

EDIT: Taking a second look at the "bug", it looks like amphibious attacks on workers are possible. I'm not sure if this is intended though.
 
I should've mentioned that Galleon. He was positioned to land some troops, and then when I realized I didn't have enough troops in position to land, I brought the other ships back, but I didn't start to move the Galleon before I passed the game on. I should've moved him or indicated that he should be moved.

I don't know if they changed this in Conquests, but perhaps there's some level of War Weariness in monarchy? Gouguien would've been the first city we've lost, and I know in Republic, etc., it would've kicked up WW a notch.

I think the Amphib assault on workers was added to prevent using workers to block every square in order to prevent landings.

EDIT: Also, we can't make peace with Persia, although technically we could make peace with France, but that'd be against the spirit of the game.

I once had a city flip roughly 1000 years after I conquered it, and the nearest original civ city was half a world away....
 
1415 AD (0)
I have not had the pleasure of leading the great Austrians since I introduced the Hussar to the world. Hopefully, I will be able to introduce them to ToE and Hoover's Dam this time around. I first check on Cathy. She will give us peace and through in SciMeth if we kick in 125gpt. The Arabs won't give it to us for anything and everything and neither the Franch nor the Vikes have it. It looks like the Arabs and Cathy are making off with the tech race. Hopefully, the patch has slowed that down. We still have 5 turns left on an alliance with the Vikes. I only have 900+g and need at least 1400 for an immediate tech steal, 2800+ for a safe steal. However, we are making 450+gpt so it won't take long to build it up. Looking back over the turns, it looks like the Arabs should be pert near close to finishing ToE. Being the nevous type, I decide to investigate the city building it (Yamama). They will complete ToE this turn.


I pause here as I need some input from the group.

1) I do not consider it an exploit (dastardly, yes) to break an alliance if the other people didn't pay us cash or tech to get into it. As the Vikes got paid, any loss would be on our side not theirs.
2) Our trade rep appears to be shot as it is, we have no trade route with the other landmass as France are Russia is blocking the whole thing.

We have two choices, I can buy SciMeth from the Russians, breaking our alliance with the Vikes (something I normally wouldn't do in an SG). We can finish ToE, slightly ahead of the Arabs and most likely grab Hoover's as well. The two techs we get would give us parity and would allow us to get to the other landmass before an Arab launch.

or

We can let the Arabs finish it and most likely Hoover's (we would have to steal 3 techs to get there and then time the pre-build right). We would then have to get to the other big land mass and stop the Arabs from launching before too much longer.

What do we think?
 
I agree that making peace with the Russians in this situation wouldn't be an exploit, just ordinary ruthless behavior in which we're entitled to engage if we accept the consequences the game system provides. I think we should do it and get SM/ToE.
 
I agree with NP, I don't see it as an exploit

EDIT: If you go for it, don't forget to switch from Nationalism to Atomic Theory. I did that once and almost put a hole through the wall.
 
OK, it seems at least three of us agree.

I think our trade rep was shot when we became at war with both Russia and France as all routes went through them...
 
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