MLDR004 NOW and Again

Sorry, should have looked at the game yesterday:
Preturn: Military situation looks good and we have a healthy core established.
The tech situation is a different one, we are way behind with just one trading partner,
almost an AW situation tech-wise.
Zeus would be ready next turn, but with our opponents already in the middle ages we will be facing Knights soon
and Met. is not that far away.
I checked F1, we could get Lit. in 9 turns and a palace prebuild would last 14 turns, so we would have
a good chance to get the GLib (I know there is a certain cascade-risk involved)
I think this is a important turning-point, the GL could really solve our severe tech problem.
One more day delay is probably not that important compared to one of the most important decisions
in this game, so lets hear what the team has to say.

Belisar
 
I agree that we should try for the Great Library. If we don't get it, the odds are that we'll be able to default to the Statue, albeit at some waste of shields.
 
I would agree that we go with GLib; worst case scenario we lose 1 4/5ths of an Ancient Cavalry.
 
As I stated before NP's turn, if we can get the GL we should take it. I think Zeus will still be ther for the taking. I like the free AnCav and they even work well with cat against higher defenders. However, it isn't something that we should risk the rest of the game on. A delay of another 20-30 turns getting Zeus isn't that big only 5-6 units. At worst we miss the GL get Zeus in 10 turns and only lose 2 units. At best we get the GL and then restart Zeus and get it as well. We really need contact with the other Civs. Maybe sneak in some boats to send off into the wild mists...
 
^You did say that, didn't you? Hmm...I guess I didn't realize how close we were to Lit...

Here comes :santa:
 
With the GL as our priority I swap Graz to palace and Wiener Neustadt to Zeus
(as I said I consider it is not a high priority but I want have all options available)
Vienna to settler (growth in 3, settler in 3)
Research to max, Lit. in 9 turns.
Everything else looks good, press enter..

IT: The Iros land a sword near Villach.
The Persians start Leo.

130BC: Innsbruck finishes spear, starts horse.
Villach : walls -> rax
Kill the Iro sword without problems.
I want to grab two sites north, agressively near the Iro cities, send settler and small stack.

IT: A Barb galley fails attacking our southern Curragh but redlines it.
The Persians start Leo

110BC: Linz: horse -> worker (we really need them)
I set Salzburg a granary to produce more workers
Krems: Walls -> Cat
Eisenstadt: rax -> walls

IT: The Iros land the next sword near Innsbruck, we have to reinforce our coastal cities south

90BC: Kill the Iro sword.
Vienna builds settler, start
Settler/mil group arrives at northern spot.

IT: The Iros land their 3rd sword, this time on a mountain near Klagenfurt near our iron,
we will have to get a unit on that mountain ASAP.
Persia extorts 20 gold, Hmmm.

70BC: Ugarit produces cat, starts another.
Linz: worker -> horse
Klagenfurt: spear -> sword
Have to reduce science a notch to prevent us getting broke (The 20 cash I just had to spend
on our 'neighborhood' is missing now), costs us a turn in research.
I settle Landeck north on fresh water, start walls.

IT: Sometimes it is better to be lucky than good, the Iro swordsman ingnores the Klagenfurt
with it's 3 units and attacks our warrior on the iron mountain, now we have a vet warrior :lol:

50BC: Our northern Curagh spots a foreign boarder NW but this will be suicide-crossing.
We advance on Caughnawanga with a mixed stack.

IT: An archer attack at Caughnawaga forces one of our horses to retreat.

30BC: I have to risk our curragh, it ends the turn on a sea square but the contact is much more important.
France gives us Myst., Construction and all their 52 cash for HB and Writing.
We raze Caughnawaga after 2 horses retreat. We also kill an Iro archer that was about to pillage our
road network. The bad news is an Iro sword-stack (7!) advancing south.

IT: Our Curragh sinks at the French coast
The Iro swords move towards Oka.

10BC: I retreat from the swords back to Landeck.

IT: Things will get ugly, count 9 swords, 1 archer, 1 spear and 1 Cat heading south.

10AD: Concentrate forces at Landeck, settle the military settlement Neusiedl on a hill,
I know this is not a perfect place but will be more easily to defend than other sites.

IT: The first sword impales itself on Landeck

30AD: Villach: rax -> sword
Landeck: walls (just in time) -> rax
We get Lit. and I swap Graz to GLib, due in 15
Lit. gets us a MA with Perisa against the Iros.

IT: The Iro stack moves back towards Oka, the Perisans begin to pay off.

50AD: The GLib is due in 14 in Graz and Zeus in 16 in Wiener Neustadt, if we still want it.
We need a lot more Cats if we want to fend off such stacks without a lot lost horses.
Hope Xerxes does his part of the deal, then we could get Oka in the near future and end the Iro presence
in the south afterwards.
Neusidl should be reinforced when Landeck is save and build some culture after the walls,
the southern Persian city really messed up my plans for this region.

Good luck Steve
Belisar

meld4-1.gif


SAVE
 
We are in a serious danger zone with the GL. Hopefully no unmet Civ are working on it. Good job advancing the cause by both you and MP.

Arizona_Steve, The Eager (No more :love2: time for :ninja: )
Meldor (On deck)
Northern Pike
Belisar
ChrTh (Here comes :santa: )
Coffee (Lurker #1:wavey: )
 
Originally posted by meldor
We are in a serious danger zone with the GL. Hopefully no unmet Civ are working on it.
Click to expand...
I agree and if this was deity I doubt that we could get it but on demigod I give us a 75% chance.
The one thing we can learn from this situation for future (deity?) games is that a prebuild for the GL can't be too early
 
(0) Inherited Turn
Of immediate note is the SOD of eight swordsmen and one archer to the North of Landeck. It looks like Belisar parked a bunch of troops in the city, but the big problem are the mountains next to it. No way to stop the attack I'm afraid, so I'll bolster defence as best I can.
All usual checks are OK, let's see what that Iroquois SOD does.
I decide not to spend any money this turn if possible, I'd like to see if we can get the Great Library.

IBT:
In a display of total :smoke: the Iroquois move that SOD into Oka. Geeze, they could've done some damage.

(1) 70AD
I pick up 8 horsemen and move them, along with an elite spear onto a mountain two tiles from Oka, so that I can see if that Iroquois stack moves out of the city this turn.

IBT:
... and back comes the stack-o-doom. Complete with an extra archer.

(2) 90AD
There's a regular spear guarding a catapault across the river from our stack. If I cross the river first with a horseman, I'll leave him exposed, so I take a chance and attack across the river with an elite horseman. The first horseman retreats without doing any damage, a second elite wins and we get an extra catapault. All remaining units are moved out of the way of the Iroquois SOD, those that can get back to Landeck do.
I have no idea why there's a warrior sitting on the iron. He's sent to Linz for an upgrade.

IBT:
... and the SOD disappears back into OKA :smoke:

(3) 110AD
I place one lone horseman on the mountain to watch over Oka. Hopefully that stack will head towards Persia.

IBT:
Some of the swordsmen move off towards Persia, but the majority come our way. Maybe they're after the horseman on the mountain.

(4) 130AD
Move horsie back to landeck. Cannot believe the AI indecisiveness.

IBT:
You guessed it, the SOD goes back to Oka.

(5) 150AD
I'm going to delay a turn before deploying troops in the hope that the AI will be REALLY dumb and move those swords towards Persia.

(6) 170AD
Another SOD, ours this time, moves off towards Oka.

(7) 190AD
Fortify our SOD for one turn, so that a couple of swordsmen can join in the fun.

(8) 210AD
Our SOD moves next to Oka, and all I see is a spearman as the defender. I guess we'll see if there's any swordsmen there. Exciting huh?

IBT:
Answer: There aren't. I see one yellowlined swordsman move into the city to defend it.

(9) 230AD
They have at least three spearmen in Oka, as determined by two catapault hits and a miss. We defeat the three spearmen, the aforementioned yellowlined swordsman and an archer using (mostly) elite horsemen, with only one retreat and no losses. It's nowhere near the Iroquois core, so I think we're pretty safe keeping the city. Walls are ordered up. We get three workers who will connect it to the road net.

(10) 250AD
We've probably seen the end of the Iroquois attacks, as they have to go through Persia to reach us. I've fortified a bunch of units in Oka, many of which are healing.
Great Library due in four turns, Statue of Zeus in six.

Here is the "nice" save
 
Nice turns indeed, Belisar and Steve. :goodjob:

As best I can measure, the Iroquois have nine times our culture. This means that the flip danger in Oka is about 3.5 times what it would be in the neutral case even allowing for the favourable distance-from-capital factor. It also means, if the culture ratio is an uncapped factor in the flip formula as well-informed posters seem to believe, that we'd need a preposterous ninety units in the town to eliminate any risk of revolt. So we really could lose our whole stack in Oka, and I think we have to either reduce the garrison drastically or abandon the city.

More broadly, we've dug ourselves such a deep hole culturally by not building temples or libraries to this point (though it was the right thing to do) that we'll never get out of it. We're just going to have to raze almost everything we take, without much need for case-by-case decision-making. :die:
 
Originally posted by Arizona_Steve

In a display of total :smoke: the Iroquois move that SOD into Oka. Geeze, they could've done some damage.
Click to expand...
Hehe, i knew they would get confused if they have enemies in both directions,
so this is not unexpected. They began to withdraw on my 9th
When I settled Landeck there was not a single Iro unit within sight and I wasn't too aware of the fact that those mountains would be an ideal path for them.
I thought I could push the front further during my turns, but when this SoD arrived I had to change plans. Fourtunately, Lit. came in soon enough to get the Persians into an alliance.
 
Originally posted by Arizona_Steve

I have no idea why there's a warrior sitting on the iron. He's sent to Linz for an upgrade.
Click to expand...
Hehe, this warrior is a hero, he defeated an Iro sword by defending our Iron with his live.
Ok, seriously, we had zero money for an upgrade, Lit came in on my 9th turn, then I could set the slider towards cash again.
 
250 AD (0)
I establish an embassy with Paris and find they are building welath? The city is size 6 and has Temple, Walls, Colosseum, and the Great Wall.
(I) An Iroquois galley comes sailing down the coast. Linz Sword->Temple, Krems Cat->Cat

260 AD (1)
I assume the Iroquois are attempting to disconnect our iron so I move a sword on top of it. We are in serious need of a new road system. All the roads cross the rivers at the wrong points and one sword has the cross three times to get to the front when he should only have to cross once. I send our little boat towards France and wish them luck.
(I) Eisenstadt worker->Curragh. The Iroquois start Sun's. Wouldn't it be nice to steal that from them?

270 AD (2)
Our Curragh survives! Dial up X-man and get an ROP. Horses head for Tyendenaga and the swords head north.
(I) Vienna Sword->Sword, we quell two resistors in Oka and they riot, switch them all to taxmen, Neusiedl Rax->Spear.

280 AD (3)
More movement. The horses arrive.
(I) We get to watch something in the mist die attacking Tyendenaga. The archer there then impale itself on a horses lance. We get the Great Library in Graz and start a temple

290 AD (4)
We lose an elite horse and a vet horse taking the city but Tyendenaga is ours. I keep it as otherwise it will be in Persian culture and we lose it. It is only size two. I start it on a temple. Up lux to keep Graz from rioting. We should be able to buy Persian lux next turn.
(I) We learn Philosophy, Code of Laws, Map Making, Polytheism, Monarchy, and Feudalism.
I start an infinite turn run on Engineering.

300 AD (5)
I don't know if we have a chance, but I swap Wiener Neustadt to Sun's and Vienna to SoZ. 45 turns to Sun's is a long time. Start worker to change that.
(I) I have a sword shadowing the Iroquois galley and it can't make up its mind where to go. Krem Cat->Cat.

310 AD (6)
Swords continue through Persian lands. I adjust all the cities with specialists. Upgrade as many spears as I can. Our sword stack arrives at the Iroquois border.
(I) Klagenfut Horse->Temple.

320 AD (7)
Movement.
(I) Linz Temple->Market, Innsbruck MDI->MDI

330 AD (8)
More movement. The Persians blocked us from the Iroquois city so we go around.
(I) Ouch. The Iroquios nail all the Persians and our spear and one sword. Ugarit MDI->MDI.

340 AD (9)
I begin operation "Withdraw swords for upgrade". I also start upgrading our spears to pikes. Since our alliance with the Iroquois is up this turn, I redo it for a straight up 20 turns.
(I) Watch some action up north. Oka walls->Rax. Volcano erupts beside Tyendenaga.

350 AD (10)
I withdraw all troops from Tyendenaga. There is a spear set to arrive there next turn. The horses headed north. Almost all our spears are upgraded. We need to swap out the rest and upgrade them as well. The swords are returning for upgrade to MDI. Sun's due in 33, SoZ in 11.

Arizona_Steve, The Eager
Meldor
Northern Pike (Up)
Belisar (On deck)
ChrTh (Almost there )
Coffee (Lurker #1 )

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/MLDR004-350AD.ZIP
 
Good round, Meldor. :goodjob:

Here's a question for the whole team. We have the Monarchy tech, and we'll never be in a better position to endure some anarchy, since we're under no military pressure at all. The downside of revolting at this point is that it would compromise our so-so shot at Sun Tzu, due in 33 turns. So, should we revolt to monarchy now?

I incline towards revolting, on the grounds that 1) Sun Tzu isn't that vital when we get twenty-shield (or eighty-gold) barracks anyway, and 2) 33 extra turns of despotism would be a lot even if they guaranteed we'd get Sun Tzu, which of course they wouldn't. But I know that some of you value Sun Tzu more highly than I do, so let me know what you think.
 
The only question would be what effect the anarchy would have on the alliance with the Persians. I just renewed it and we now have an RoP. Before we pull the trigger, it would be nice to get some troops up there to fight and also get enough gold stock piled to be able to pull Persia back in the war if they make peace. Likely around 400 to 500g at least.
 
We got the GL, good to hear.
I doubt that we can build Sun, maybe Xerxes builds it for us, so lets revolt at the point we have enough cash to renew the Persian MA
 
350 (0): OK, I won't revolt until we have a decent nest egg built up, which in practice means that the fun of conducting our nation through its anarchy will fall to Belisar. ;)

I switch Graz from temple to marketplace (more useful, I think, given that Graz has the Great Library to provide cultural expansions).

I switch Neusiedl from pikeman to temple. Here, on the other hand, we need a cultural expansion.

I switch Krems, which has the look of an excellent settler/worker factory, from catapult to settler. Making war against the Iroquois on the other side of Persia will be awkward whatever we do, but I think we'll want the option of founding native cities up there.

IT: Not much.


360 (1): The Persians have musketmen.

IT: Tyendenaga flips--to the Persians, not the Iroquois, so I can't re-take it. We lose only a spearman. This event emphasizes Oka's desperate need for a cultural expansion, and I switch to a temple there (due in forever, but we have to get started).


370 (2): The great backward movement of our swordsmen for upgrading purposes continues.

IT: Krems settler --> settler, Villach MDI --> catapult.


380 (3): I upgrade a swordsman to MDI, at the new cost of 30 gold. Upgrades of this sort are the only ones I'll make--but even so, this goal and that of accumulating enough cash to get us safely through anarchy are not exactly consistent.

IT: Landeck pikeman --> pikeman.

The Russians finish Knights Templar, which takes the shine off our still-awaited completion of the Statue somewhat.


390 (4): Another sword --> MDI upgrade in Landeck.

IT: We get Republic from the GL.

The Russians complete Sun Tzu.


400 (5): The Iroquois have taken Sardis, and are only two squares from Persepolis. How often do the Persians lose a war in this era?

IT: Graz marketplace --> MDI.

The Persians switch from Sun Tzu to Leonardo in Pasargadae, predictably. Pasargadae is not an especially productive-looking town, and it might even be in danger from the Iroquois, though I grant that AI-AI wars don't often move this fast.


410 (6): I upgrade our last three swordsmen to MDI in Landeck.

Having switched Wiener Neustadt to the palace pre-build the previous turn (due in only ten turns at full production, unfortunately), I now MM it for minimum shield production to keep the pre-build alive as long as possible (palace due in 25 turns). It seems to me that with the Great Library in our possession, and given that the only Leonardo build we know of is in a suboptimal city, we have a reasonable chance of getting some useful Wonder in WN. It's a gamble, and one I wouldn't try if we were hard pressed in a deity game, but I think it's the right course in the present circumstances.

IT: We get Monotheism from the Great Library.

Eisenstadt galley --> galley.


420 (7): I have to send our new exploring galley west from Eisenstadt, even though starting in this direction it may just duplicate the discoveries of our heroic curragh, because on any other heading it'll run into Iroquois galleys.

IT: Linz marketplace --> MDI, Salzburg temple --> galley, Innsbruck MDI --> catapult, Klagenfurt temple --> pikeman, Villach cat --> cat.


430 (8): Our soldiers become very familiar with the Tyre-Hamadan road.

IT: Ugarit MDI --> MDI.


440 (9): Our spearhead units push a little beyond Hamadan, without spotting the Iroquois.

IT: Vienna STATUE OF ZEUS --> marketplace.


450 (10): The Persians have Chivalry.

Well, a very quiet round. I never saw an Iroquois ground unit.
 
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