Moai

[Clam Spammer]

Changing the topic a little here, but I was wondering...

Under what circumstances is Moai better than Ironworks for OCC? Given that:

- your other 4 National Wonder slots are taken by NE, Oxford, Globe, NP (this one is debatable in some cases)
- you have Iron, or at the very least can trade for it (otherwise IW is worthless, obviously)

I'm guessing that with a start like the one pictured, Moai looks pretty tempting, especially with an Industrious leader and/or stone. Potentially you can get even more crazy starts - up to 6 seafoods and about half a dozen 3 lake tiles. Surely at some point, Moai wins out?

 

[huerfanista]

That is a nice Moai. Too bad it's Athens and not Amsterdam.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[RJM]

Changing the topic a little here, but I was wondering...

Under what circumstances is Moai better than Ironworks for OCC? Given that:

- your other 4 National Wonder slots are taken by NE, Oxford, Globe, NP (this one is debatable in some cases)
- you have Iron, or at the very least can trade for it (otherwise IW is worthless, obviously)

I'm guessing that with a start like the one pictured, Moai looks pretty tempting, especially with an Industrious leader and/or stone. Potentially you can get even more crazy starts - up to 6 seafoods and about half a dozen 3 lake tiles. Surely at some point, Moai wins out?

I never play OCC, so I may be missing something here, but ...

With iron and coal, Ironworks will give you an additional 100% of your raw hammers. Moai will give you 1 hammer for every water tile you're working. So to favour Moai you need to be working more water tiles than your existing raw hammer total - fairly unlikely. With iron and no coal, IW gives 1 for 2. That may be a closer call, but I'm guessing that an OCC without coal would be difficult.

IW adds 2 unhealthy icons; probably not an issue though, if you've gone for the National Park. IW gives a GE point and allows 2 specialist engineers; M gives a GP point and no specialist.

Seems like IW is a no brainer except under very special circumstances.

 

[vanatteveldt]

@RJM If you have the NP, you lose your coal, so it's only 50%

Also, the 1 hammer is a base hammer, which gets multiplied by buro, factories etc, while the extra IW hammers are post-bonus hammers

Finally, in a golden age it is worth 2 base hammers, which get multiplied

Even finallier [sic]: the maoi is a lot earlier than IW

Earlyish game:Say that your city will be working 3 water tiles in general, and has a forge and OR for +50%. Maoi will be worth 5 hammers per turn, double in GA. IW can't be built yet

Mid game: Say that your city will be working 5 water tiles in general, and has a forge, buro, and OR for +150%. Maoi will be worth 12.5 hammers per turn, double in GA. IW can't be built yet

Late game: Say the same city is now working 10 water tiles, has buro, forge, factory, power for +175%. Maoi will be worth 10 * 2.75 = 27.5 hammers, double in GA.Suppose that the city has 50 base hammers otherwise (mines, specialists, ap buildings), IW is worth 25 hammers (no coal). If the city has 100 base hammers (not an easy feat), it is worth 50. If you have other multipliers (eg drydock, police state), maoi is worth more.

Conclusion: unless my numbers are off, maoi is underrated (since base hammers >> prod bonus) while IW is overrated for the same reason.

Edit: Just tried an OCC/ maoi game with Lizzy on med/small. I rerolled until I got stone+seafood+lakes. I built maoi asap, plus lighthous and colossus. Lake tiles are now 3f1h4c, not bad at all!

I actually decided to get maoi and IW and drop NP. Health is problematic but environmentalism + hospital etc can do quite a bit. Just founded sid's and mining and traded for resources. I find that in OCC corps are a great way to convert gold into food+hammers, and I am currently losing 30gpt even though I have 4 or 5 settled prophets and a 12-gold shrine. But I do get around 8 (base) hammers and 10 food per turn...

 

[mirthadir]

For me, Maori is best built either via whip overflow with an offshore island and two seafood in HR or with just a few hills for production.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Another issue with IW and NP is that to get a good effect from NP, you need to use forest preserves on trees, which means not using lumbermills, so you lose the hammers from that.

Obviously, you can convert from preserves to lumbermills at a later date, to go from specialist heavy to hammer heavy, if you need...

 

[mirthadir]

NP can be used to either boost preserves or to deal with unhealthiness from massive pop. If you get to biology and have no city with a good bit of forest left, you can often do pretty well just by using it in a high food, floodplains city. For OCC Forest preserves are a no-brainer. With Rep/Enviro/NP you can eliminate all your caps, and each tile is worth is worth around 2 , 3 (spec + forest hammer), 3 , and 2 and 3 GPP (this can be boosted higher AW priests, the only limitation is the spec slots but you can get a good amount with forge, factory, and IP). Nothing else comes close to that. Even losing coal from IW makes it still a strong OCC tactic to have IW/NP in your combo if you can keep the forests alive long enough.

 

[Tristan_C]

Well, since we're showing off Moai. These two attached Moai cities helped me to sieze control of the map. Pics are on the turn of victory... sorry, no other archived saves from these games. Maybe their contexts can still interest you, though.

1. This was a made-to-order situation. I scouted Monty's city, and it dawned on me that if you give that psycho the Whip, the Aztec UB, and 5 Seafoods, there might be, um... problems. Turned all espionage onto Monty (to monitor his research) and had to rush down another civ just to connect it. Capped it in 2200 BC, 5 turns before he could finish BW, and had the Moai up by 1080 BC. Chronically unhealthy and addicted to HR (look at the garrison!), but it did exactly what it needed to do. All thanks goes to the map scripts for giving AIs unbelievable capitals!

2. This was a sleeper situation (a sleeper is something of surprising power). It totally blindsided me. I settled here in 730BC and it was supposed to be a filler city to bring in the iron 2N. Moai was recommended by Sid, I had some stone, and thought, "Oh, alright." Finished in 380 AD. Between seafood, iron, and SP workshops, though, I finally figured out this thing was destined for the heroic epic, and greatness. It spat out enough samurai, cannons, and warships to obliterate all resistance. Enough privateers to choke two small continents and set them way back.
​

I understand praise for Ironworks; it is excellent. But Moai is much earlier. I learned my lesson up there in case #2: It doesn't need a perfect, divine city site. If you have a little food and a lot of coast, don't delay it!

 

[cabert]

I understand praise for Ironworks; it is excellent. But Moai is much earlier. I learned my lesson up there in case #2: It doesn't need a perfect, divine city site. If you have a little food and a lot of coast, don't delay it!

exactly my point (see above). This is why you won't make 5 failed moai.

 

[Nick Carpathia]

I'm not totally sure what's the best way to use Moai. I'm always so tempted to whip away Moai coastal tiles, as they're only 2F1P, and food:hammer efficiency is highest as smaller sizes.

 

[DaveMcW]

Moai gives +1 hammer to resources and lakes.

The coast and ocean tiles are junk in terms of production, and should be ignored.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Well, since we're showing off Moai. These two attached Moai cities helped me to sieze control of the map. Pics are on the turn of victory... sorry, no other archived saves from these games. Maybe their contexts can still interest you, though.

1. This was a made-to-order situation. I scouted Monty's city, and it dawned on me that if you give that psycho the Whip, the Aztec UB, and 5 Seafoods, there might be, um... problems. Turned all espionage onto Monty (to monitor his research) and had to rush down another civ just to connect it. Capped it in 2200 BC, 5 turns before he could finish BW, and had the Moai up by 1080 BC. Chronically unhealthy and addicted to HR (look at the garrison!), but it did exactly what it needed to do. All thanks goes to the map scripts for giving AIs unbelievable capitals!

2. This was a sleeper situation (a sleeper is something of surprising power). It totally blindsided me. I settled here in 730BC and it was supposed to be a filler city to bring in the iron 2N. Moai was recommended by Sid, I had some stone, and thought, "Oh, alright." Finished in 380 AD. Between seafood, iron, and SP workshops, though, I finally figured out this thing was destined for the heroic epic, and greatness. It spat out enough samurai, cannons, and warships to obliterate all resistance. Enough privateers to choke two small continents and set them way back.
​

I understand praise for Ironworks; it is excellent. But Moai is much earlier. I learned my lesson up there in case #2: It doesn't need a perfect, divine city site. If you have a little food and a lot of coast, don't delay it!

To me, the first one seems a made-to-order GP farm.

The 2nd is more like what I'd use Moai for, though - build moai, lighthouse, granary, drydock and pump out the naval units...

 

[Tristan_C]

To me, the first one seems a made-to-order GP farm.

Too early and no point. Belching out like this without even bureacracy, I could just mow everybody down for a BC domination victory.

Moai gives +1 hammer to resources and lakes.

The coast and ocean tiles are junk in terms of production, and should be ignored.

Usually.

 

[vanatteveldt]

(For everyone interested in maoi in OCC, check out the OCCCC thread...)

 

[mirthadir]

Moai gives +1 hammer to resources and lakes.

The coast and ocean tiles are junk in terms of production, and should be ignored.

I dunno, I've whip built Moai many times one tile islands with nothing (settled for boosting domestic TRs originally). This turns a crappy city whose only purpose is to lure unsuspecting traders over into marginal production city.


In any event, assuming you are running caste or eman for other reasons, how else do you intead to suck down surplus ? Once you work all the possible mines and WSs 2 1 2 may be lousy, but growing those out seem to be better yield than running non-rep specs; particularly once the gets a full set of multipliers. I don't see how the pop increase fails to increase your production and pay for the increased maintenance.

 

[DaveMcW]

In any event, assuming you are running caste or eman for other reasons, how else do you intead to suck down surplus ? Once you work all the possible mines and WSs

Build my production cities farther inland for more mines and WSs.

 

[kenwyn]

Good thots all... except for the "I forget to build" = huh?
Also, who ever gets an AI (or real player) to trade stone?
U must be playing at easier levels to get away with these.

Altho, I'll admit I've delayed too long looking for the "perfect" pennisula or island. 11-14 sea &/or, as noted, fresh water (THE best) tiles. I'm starting to consider 7-8 (as the AI does) as OK if I can get it cranking out earlier... especially if lucky enuf to have stone.

The cutting forests (after getting Math) = a good possibility if there are some around.
Slaughtering the slaves = OK if there some good food supplies around (which there must at least 2). This a great NW if U R playing one of the Financial leaders = excellent commerce that works well with several other wonders.

IMS-HO.

 

[mirthadir]

Build my production cities farther inland for more mines and WSs.

??? What do you do then with those crappy offshore islands that are only worth settling because they are +1 on all your domestic TR? Sure these cities won't be production powerhouses, but if you build an island city just for TR purposes, why wouldn't you dump in Maori and actually make it marginally useful? What else do you intend to do with places like that once you move from the whip to eman or caste?

 

[DaveMcW]

Yes, if no city has enough fish/lakes to justify building Moai earlier, putting it in a junk city is often better than not building it.

 

[Tristan_C]

Build my production cities farther inland for more mines and WSs.

??? What do you do then with those crappy offshore islands that are only worth settling because they are +1 on all your domestic TR? Sure these cities won't be production powerhouses, but if you build an island city just for TR purposes, why wouldn't you dump in Maori and actually make it marginally useful? What else do you intend to do with places like that once you move from the whip to eman or caste?

You guys can yammer all you want about what's better in principle, but the map will usually tell you what you need to do. This is just such a case.