Mobility promotion - to powerful and destroy all game strategy?

[[to_xp]Gekko]

well Marchwik, you should probably make a poll about this, so we can clearly see what people think about it. then if it stands out that many people think it's overpowered, the dev team will think of a way to nerf it somehow.

in case it IS overpowered, my suggestions are:

1) make it need horses
2) make it need another promotion, like combat or, evn better, drill. drill is not really high on the wish list right now, and it kinda makes sense that troops need to get drilled before they know how to use steeds. just my 2 cents of course.

 

[TheConqueror]

I don't think it is by any means overpowered, I mean is it worth to have fast units that die so often that it simply doesn't makes any difference ?

 

[SwordofStriker]

I don't consider mobility overpowered.

If you take it before other promotions, then my combat promoted units will kill your mobility promoted ones in short order.

It's a supplemental promotion in my opinion, meaning it's most useful after you have already built up your units some. Certainly it can contribute to superior pillagers, but on an otherwise unpromoted unit, well, let's face it, it's not that great.

Assuming tech parity, even if you have a whole stack of units with mobility to have a fast moving army, once they reach my city walls that promotion has become useless, except for when you begin your inevitable retreat.

I refer you to the other thread you started to see how you can best counter highly mobile units here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=290082

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I don't really consider Mobility overpowered, except that it can lead to immediately getting Mobility II. I really think that Mobility II should require Stirrups, and maybe horses too.

 

[Tarquelne]

More of an issue for me is the "flavor" of Mob. I think it's generally worth getting - +20% in the wrong place isn't as good as +0% in the right place - but I don't like it because of the way armies all start zipping around the map.... well, relatively speaking. What it does is compress the difference between the mounted, recon, and other units.

Some might see this as an over-reaction, but I designed a whole civ with very limited access to mobility and posted it as a mod here.

For a less labor intensive solution see my post on the first page...

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

More of an issue for me is the "flavor" of Mob. I think it's generally worth getting - +20% in the wrong place isn't as good as +0% in the right place - but I don't like it because of the way armies all start zipping around the map.... well, relatively speaking. What it does is compress the difference between the mounted, recon, and other units.

This comment I can agree with. I guess that while I don't think mobility in general is that big of a problem, it is a problem in that it affects the flavor of games. Suddenly you have axemen running around at the same speed as horsemen (well, almost). If you're going to attack, you may trade a 20% combat promo for a mobility promo but you make that up from not having the city attack penalty from mounted units to begin with. Plus your fast axemen get defense bonuses. I've actually yet to build more than 1 or 2 mounted units, and that's usually when I think I'll give horsemen another try only to stop when their combat odds are so low its not worth it.

Its also worth noting that mobility is a bigger problem with smaller maps... on standard I think its ok but I can see how it could be really overpowered on smaller maps.

 

[Marchwik]

I don't really consider Mobility overpowered, except that it can lead to immediately getting Mobility II. I really think that Mobility II should require Stirrups, and maybe horses too.

yes it is really good idea Magister

Suddenly you have axemen running around at the same speed as horsemen (well, almost). If you're going to attack, you may trade a 20% combat promo for a mobility promo but you make that up from not having the city attack penalty from mounted units to begin with. Plus your fast axemen get defense bonuses.

Thanks for this post - it is the point

Some might see this as an over-reaction, but I designed a whole civ with very limited access to mobility and posted it as a mod here.

For me it is not overaction.I will be proud to test Your mod Tarquelne -FFH2 is really cool but I'm testing this mod on highest lvl -now I playing as Grigori on Immortal huge map and 22 civs and probably win this game easily.Non stop tested all nations,tech tree,civics units ,spells and see many obvious mistakes .Last upgrade was very good I hope that Kael and his team follow in this direction.

well Marchwik, you should probably make a poll about this, so we can clearly see what people think about it.

Players love Mobility - poll is unnecassary ,democracy isn't a good solution ,only few man with knowledge about this game to make this mod better

I don' remember who said this -some russian communist

"Doesn't matter as people votes,main important Who counts important voices "

 

[Mailbox]

I think that limiting it to recon/mounted or going back to the vanilla mobility's stat (reduces movement cost instead of adding flat movement) would be the easiest and best solutions.

 

[avalonnn]

I don't really consider Mobility overpowered, except that it can lead to immediately getting Mobility II. I really think that Mobility II should require Stirrups, and maybe horses too.

I agree -- my infantry need mobility 1. Mobility 2, for 4 or 5 movement, is very powerful.

Could the dwarves use pigs or sheep for mobility 2?

 

[Blackmantle]

While i did say earlier that i don't think its overpowered i do think that relocating Mobility 2 to Stirups might be decent.

Only that mobility 2 is not acessible to melee i belive (so part of the discussion seems moot. Not utterly sure about this one though. Could have disremembered.).
But still the powerful recon line (which indeed has acess to Mobility 2) offers to much with it in comparison to the mounted line (especially early + midgame parts till stirups)...


Also Horse archers + Stirups could use a serious beef up since they are the real bottleneck of the mounted line. (Stirups tech sucks in that it needs Archery(?), is expensive and the unit it offers is clearly subpar + offers nothing else (since withdrawl is capped at 85% it doesn't even help that it gets an additional 10% withdrawl because Flanking 3-Promotion is barred which is rather nice usually.). Usually even worse than chariots. By a rather big margin.)
More power, defensive abilities or an additional First Strike or two (or a combination thereof) whould make very much sense for balance as well as flavor (Since Mounted Archers/Ranged should be able to use terrain unlike 'normal' mounted units if one thinks about it a bit. No real disadvantage even in forest or rocky terrain.)

If Horse-Archers are unthinkable without archery, it might be better to change the name of the horsearcher to mounted skirmisher + add new nice art or the likes (and change the art a bit (more nice artwork, jummy ) to carrying spears or the likes) + axing archery prerequisite instead of clinging to archery-prerequisite for flavors sake.

(7 Power + defensive ability, 7 Power + 3 first Strikes or 7 Power and +50% vs Melee all sound like a unit really worth building at that point. While still not beeing outright overpowered for hippus or other mounted-leaning civs. The last option seems to be the most interesting in respect of not takeing away the uniqueness of some civs and also offering something the mounted line hasn't got until now. Overall utility might be nice but not if it comes at the cost of large chunks of straight-out power in such a big way like it is with horse-archers)

That imo is by far a bigger issue than the mobility promotion in itself (along with removing the cap on 85% withdrawl which causes some issues in its own right and imo doesn't add much to gameplay neither is easily understandable).


War Chariots are decent in beeing one of the earliest Tier 4s (even earlier than Bestmasters i belive) and also are a rock-solid unit + offer an interesting building + wonder for mounted line (usually you can expect them to start with 12-20 XP out of the box. That tops anything comparable at the time and makes no-defense rather minor.). So Warhorses doesn't need a buff in any respect.
The Knight-Tech is only really viable in priority if getting the wonder or running CoE (for Shadowriders) and / or speeding it up with ToD / Grimoire early. (After getting the wonder from Warhorses).


Now that said i often build and use mounted units and even horsearchers. But thats due to my favorite civ beeing sidar which have an excellent synergy with the mounted line (especially Warhorses and Trade.) and because horse archers are the 'strongest' non-national-mounted unit one can build (which regularly lasts one turn so building something cheaper doesn't make real sense.).


Another often underrated / overlooked aspect of mounted units overall is that scouts can upgrade to mounted (horseman), which offers some neat tricks (sinister charriots, animal subduing mounted (which oddly is even easier than subduing hunters since Animal Husbandry is on the way.) and the likes to name a few.) if used right + that early mounted line oddly offers more in the way of economy than hunting (unless going for FoL straight away.) thanks to trade not by a small margin. Doesn't change that Stirups suck though.




Though honestly Archery-line has even much more serious issues (and is somewhat related) and needs looking into most urgently of them all.
(Not for beeing nonunique / nonoutstanding but for beeing straight out underpowered in a big way. I guess thats the most underused unit-type / tech-line playerwise. Sucking units + no economy + no weapon-use + nothing special in the way of mechanics / fun + few techs unlocked + ridicculous research-cost later on = package no player whould prioritize without huge special bonus like Ljosalfar dexterous for archers (but even for them not enough for longbows or above imo).)
If Archers/Longbows/Marksmen become popular enough / worthwhile to tech / use the mounted line would automatically improve as well (thanks to the quite hefty bonus versus Archery which can even out city raiders for melee easily especially if it goes together with high-withdrawl.)

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I think mobility 2 is available right after mobility 1 to every unit, I always give both mobility promos to all my workers ASAP. this is FF, but I don't think that's changed from FFH.

 

[Blackmantle]

I just went into the game / pedia to check.

That statement is really wrong.

Its 'just' available to recon, mounted and animal units.
All others (save only siege i belive) have 'just' acess to Mobility 1.

Please check first and post later or at least add some kind of uncertainty to your post instead of just haphazardly firing away. (you did imply some uncertainty in your last post but the discussion above implied differently. Making it starkly misleading)
Modmods are no base for checking as seen here and on many other topics (surely the worker-mod sports mobility for workers. Anything else whould be very awkward.)


Remember: New players might read here and take such gossip for truth / become frustrated with their game / the community here thanks to that. All of that unfairly but the effect is the same nontheless.



Just happens to be that recon is overall one of the most powerful lines for most civs for many reasons. And that line steals mounted line (parts of it) its place thanks to it... (especially because the bottleneck of recon comes much earlier at tracking and the biggest jump is right after. At Poisons / Animal Mastery right about the time the mounted bottleneck at Stirups comes along.)
As it does for city defense in comparison to archers and fighting in the field compared to melee.
And thats not due to it beeing to strong overall but archery-line and parts of the mounted line beeing to weak.
With Melee having its place thanks to city-siege + much more in the field of economy and divine+arcane having their place for other reasons which i don't care to explain here since they are widely known.
Siege could be seen as meh but still rocks if you have the leisure to use it in its time on the tech-tree (Siege could indeed use acess to Mobility 1 imo that whould remove most percived problems with that path.) provided you don't play quick speed of course (like most multiplayers likely do. But that as allready mentioned is not the design-focus of FFH2).

 

[Kael]

Please check first and post later or at least add some kind of uncertainty to your post instead of just haphazardly firing away. (you did imply some uncertainty in your last post but the discussion above implied differently. Making it starkly misleading)
Modmods are no base for checking as seen here and on many other topics (surely the worker-mod sports mobility for workers. Anything else whould be very awkward.)

Does this apply to me too? Because like many others I post when I dont have mod access (or im just wrong about something i thought was true). No hard feeling for anyone, we are all friends here.

 

[xienwolf]

The catch with FF Gekko is that you must be playing an Expansive Leader. They gain Mobility I free on all Workers. And there is no requirement for Mobility II other than Mobility I, which in all cases but Expansive Trait workers means after Horseback Riding.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

well said Kael. although I have to admit Blackmantle is kinda right, we're all just humans and sometimes we are just wrong as long as there's some other guy that points out the mistake it's all fine I guess.

edit @xienwolf: no, actually with any leader. I find mobility promotions very useful for workers, so as soon as they are available I give both of them to all my workers. first mobility 1, then mobility 2 of course. I kinda agree that mobility 2 could do with a higher tech req though, stirrups would be good. it's not a great tech by all means right now, while mobility 2 is very good imho.

edit2: I read my above post again and now I understand that it doesn't sounds like it should. by "right away" I mean "right after mobility 1" . I'll edit that to avoid further misunderstandings

 

[xanaqui42]

Players love Mobility - poll is unnecassary ,democracy isn't a good solution ,only few man with knowledge about this game to make this mod better

In that case, I'd suggest working on a modmod

While Mobility isn't my main issue, I know it helps me whenever I have a complaint with the mod - I fix it

 

[Marchwik]

In that case, I'd suggest working on a modmod

While Mobility isn't my main issue, I know it helps me whenever I have a complaint with the mod - I fix it

OK so how can I help U?What Do u need to check it?

 

[Blackmantle]

@ [to_xp]Gekko: I hope you didn't take my comment as an offense. It sure wasn't ment as one and i have to admit it might come across as a bit harsh (also what i said with is true to that large degree only in the strategy and tips subforum.) so a bit of beckpedaling might indeed be in order.
My intent was a clearcut and direct depiction / advice on things / heed for caution since i walked into that trap myself on various occasions and have such effects on various times cause by comments from different people all over the forums (not so much here since i am active here only for a short time but have quite some forum experience on other gaming forums dedicated to particular games.)
Its also might be slightly related to the language barrier on my behalf (which here in that case is more a matter of customs / manners and measure of words used than of direct translation. English offers more diversity in degree of verbal measure in that regard.
In my language / countries usual gaming forums what i said above and the way i said it whould hardly be seen as an attack / flame if as a quite direct and at worst slightly over the top comment.
Here on this forums i only once reacted with a harsh intent / pissed so far.
When someone depicted a nerf of + partial compensation for a civ as a huge improvement of a civ despite knowing the game and that civ well enough to know better according to his own statements, with just a short checking of the most basic maths. And that was still borderline flame so still harmful to the tone and nothing to be proud of. Anything else in this forums at least by intent is at best what i described in above paragrah.)

Sorry, for inconvinience if any was caused.




@ Kael: For some simple and profound reasons it doesn't count for you or anyone else from the team (or close to the team and involved in design, if to a lesser degree...)

First and foremost there is no point in arguing with you about you beeing straight out wrong in the first place.
For the simple reason that if it really matters to you, you can state + change what is right and what is wrong by your whim and at your leisure.
If anything i whould venture to disagree on some of your balancing evaluations / state my opinion.
(And following your cause instead of catering to everyones wishes is a big plus imo if such a project is concerned. So i actually thing this is quite a good thing.)


Also you have tasked yourselves with designing / giving the base guideline for the game instead of massively beta-testing all for yourselves. (Very wise way forward imo.)
Since you yourselves are involved with the process, you can't be expected to reliably find your own errors. (One is always blind to at least some of our own errors. That you take so much input from others is testament to your insight in that matter. More than i could hope to claim with things i do.)
If Betatesters do misinform you and others though its not all so good for the game.
Also if you whould spend more time to test / check all your statements or care to much about anything you say beeing right you whould have fewer time makeing FFH2 a better game and i sure whould dislike that.
Thats why i do measure the whole thing very much differently for you.

Lastly your part (responsibility whould be to much expectation for a free work of pure gaming joy. ) if any in that regard if any whould be a fitting / acessible FFH2-pedia in-game.
But you + team have profound resons not to do that right now with the game not finished yet. So no complaint to expect from me for that.

But still point taken and sorry if i went overboard (even if just percived. If the tone suffers overall the damage is the same nontheless. Sender has to care first that the massage gets across in the right way.)

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

FWIW, I agree with you, Blackmantle, for your original post (though maybe not in such inflammatory ways)

As a noob who's relied/relying on these forums to keep me informed in lieu of an official manual, I often get frustrated by contradictory information when people neglect to mention that what they're talking about is from FF or another mod. There is a STEEP learning curve for this game, far steeper than Vanilla Civ4, and keeping information straightforward is extremely important to get over the hump.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

no problem at all Blackmantle. you do have a point there so I'll try to be sure about what I'm posting before I post. although, you gotta admit that you can never be 100% sure about ANYTHING in this world