[MOD] Fall from Heaven

[Kael]

For example:
5 cities with 5 commerce each:
Upkeep for all is lets say 15 gold.

Normaly I would need 15 of 25 commerce for upkeep
->10 research

Now with elder concil:
paying 15 of 25 commerce upkeep
-> 10 research for commerce & 5for elder =15

Now with Market:
5*3gold=15
no need to decrease rate
So science is: 25 from commerce -5for market penalty= 20

So Market is better than elder concil for research.
And I dont thing that it should be so.

Edit:
With elder concil worth 2research as I suggested:
15 of 25 commerce for upkeep
10 research from commerce +10 from elder= 20
So it would still not be better than market but at least as good

This isn't quite equal as the civ with the elder councils will be producing more research and discovering techs faster when set at 100% research rate then a civ with markets set at 100% research rate. Although an elder council civ that has to reduce its research rate isn't broken, when I playtested and focused on techs (meaning staying at 100% research with elder councils in every city) it was a significant advantage. And remember there is nothing stopping civs from getting both buildings, and nothing saying the buildings have to be equal.

Look at it this way. If I have 5 cities and I am at 100% research and that is 20 research per turn and each city has an elder council I will be producing 25 research per turn. A 25% tech speed increase. If each council gave 2 rsearch I would be producing 30 research each turn, or a 50% increase.

Also with the negative research a civ full of markets, even at 100% rsearch won't research as fast as a civilization without markets at 100% research.

Im okay with the extra gold, there is lots of things to spend it on and it doesn't allow you to break the "100% research rate tech ceiling". Im a little more careful with things that give straight research. At last in my testing they were shown to make a bigger game effect than you might expect.

 

[Kael]

I think that the way to fix this is to make it so that no matter what, the amount of time it takes to create a forest is the same. More elves doesn't equal a faster forest.

When all of the "improvement spells" like this are switched to real spells in Phase 2 this will be the case.

 

[Lunargent]

There may be a better name for the Animal Husbanry promotion. I had to move it earlier in the game because its usless later in the game, and I couldn't keep it named "Animal Handling" because there is a tech named that that it no longer matches. I would be open to a new name.

I moved the units to be built directly because the AI understands that better. It doesn't understand that if it builds Enslave the Earth it will get a 40 strength Mithril Golem for it, when it builds the unit directly it gets it.

Instead of Animal Husbandry- perhaps Animal Trapping promotion.

I have a really weird bug in my current game. I founded The Order, but no matter what I do, I cannot get it to spread to one of my cities. The Ashen Veil spread there first, but that shouldn't matter. After wasting 2 disciples, in desperation, I went into the world editor and tried to add it there. The religion is instantly removed. I'll try a priest building a temple next.

The game message reads: A religion was removed from the city. Repeated twice.

 

[Kael]

I also agree that spells shouldn't be allowed to use roads, afterall, they are travelling through the air. I'm also looking forward to see how the werewolf idea pans out, sounds promising. Here is a few other ideas, apologies if they or similer ideas have already been put forward.

1. I think you should be allowed to use roads in enemy territory, i mean, how does the the enemy stop you from walking on their roads? How different to your own countries roads can they be?

I think someone else mentioned this, but its more than being able to just walk down a road, its more about the ease at which you can travel through an area.

2. I think that the War Elephants should have a movement of 2 or even 1 and not 3 as they have at the moment as the are not as fast horses so shouldn't get the same movement value. This is further reinforced with civilopedia also stating that elephants are slow.

The reason I boosted this is that in the Mod I am using elephants as the cavalry killers, which didn't work so well since they couldn't catch the cavalry.

3. I think there are too many limited units, if you have access to ivory then you should be able to build more than 3 War Elephants. Fair point, they are quite powerful, but with them being quite slow and large, they should be easy meat for archer units, therefore give them a -xxx% when in battle with archer units to balance this out. I also changed their withdrawal probability from 25% to 15% to take into account for their slowness.

4. Similer to above but with Knights, if I have access to horses then why should I be limited to 3 Knights? Or if Knights are to stay limited to 3, then why not have an Armoured Horseman unit which would not be quite as powerful as the Knight but would be a useful cavalry unit.

This is a game balance mechanic, not a falvor mechanic. The reaosn the top end units are limited is because the tech tree was designed to allow "tech diving" (rushing to one late game tech by ignoring a significant portion of the tech tree). Because tech diving is allowed the end game units had to be limited. So you can rush to knights if you want, and your reward for doing so is 3 very tough knights. If the knights were unlimited then the only viable game strategy would be to dive to one endgame units and produce tons of them. As is you have to explore the rest of the tech tree as it is the only way to gain a late game army.

The units could use some more distinctive names. The Knights should probably be named for some elite order of knights, so you get mroe to the point that they are a rare breed of horsemen, not just a guy in armor on a horse.

5. Instead of some spellcasters only being able to cast within their own borders, why not connect spellcasting to religion? i.e. why not make it impossible for spells to be cast in territory were the state religion is different from the spellcasters? Leaving it possible to cast in other countries were the state religion is the same; were there is no state religion and also in unclaimed territory. This could also open up the way for religion-specific spellcasters eg Fellowship of Leaves having greater spells available for their druids etc.

The limit of casting within borders is an old one. I have rewritten all of the unit pedia entires to reflect this in 1.0 (sorry it took me so long, I wanted to get the features all locked down bfore I documented.... oh who am i kidding... I hate documenting so I put it off as long as humanly possible).

edit: Drat, I just saw Loki already made most of these points.

 

[Kael]

Instead of Animal Husbandry- perhaps Animal Trapping promotion.

I have a really weird bug in my current game. I founded The Order, but no matter what I do, I cannot get it to spread to one of my cities. The Ashen Veil spread there first, but that shouldn't matter. After wasting 2 disciples, in desperation, I went into the world editor and tried to add it there. The religion is instantly removed. I'll try a priest building a temple next.

The game message reads: A religion was removed from the city. Repeated twice.

Thats intentional, cities with the Veil will not adopt the Order.

A priest should kick the veil out of the city.

 

[Chip56]

This isn't quite equal as the civ with the elder councils will be producing more research and discovering techs faster when set at 100% research rate then a civ with markets set at 100% research rate. Although an elder council civ that has to reduce its research rate isn't broken, when I playtested and focused on techs (meaning staying at 100% research with elder councils in every city) it was a significant advantage. And remember there is nothing stopping civs from getting both buildings, and nothing saying the buildings have to be equal.

Look at it this way. If I have 5 cities and I am at 100% research and that is 20 research per turn and each city has an elder council I will be producing 25 research per turn. A 25% tech speed increase. If each council gave 2 rsearch I would be producing 30 research each turn, or a 50% increase.

Im okay with the extra gold, there is lots of things to spend it on and it doesn't allow you to break the "100% research rate tech ceiling". Im a little more careful with things that give straight research. At last in my testing they were shown to make a bigger game effect than you might expect.

Yes with an elder concil you more research when at 100% then with a market.
But with only a market you can affort the 100%, with only a elder you cant effort it.
And you can use money for a lot more things.
And since both buildings cost 60prod and come at early techs they should be at equal or at least have beter uses in certain situation. And the only situations where a elder is better is if you have only 1-2 cities where you get +2 research (if thats all that matters for you) or when you get money from other sources than commerce to cover your maintance (Religios buildings or Trade form other Civilisations, both not the case in early game)
In any other case a market is a LOT better (need money for hurry or upgrades, having maintance costs because more than 2cities,Trade with other civilisations,...)
Of course you can build both, but if you have to choice which one first or which one before you build your army or exapand your borders it will be most likly a market.

 

[Czar II]

Two bugs a found in my game and they are no in post #1:
- Continental cities can build ships
- The haste spell remain in some units forever. In fact one of my archmages with that, lose the ability to cast spells.

Sorry if these have been previosly reported.

 

[loki1232]

Thats intentional, cities with the Veil will not adopt the Order.

A priest should kick the veil out of the city.

That's nice, but does the ai understand it?

What if you made it so that 2 acolytes can be upgraded to a priest at no cost?

 

[Kael]

Two bugs a found in my game and they are no in post #1:
- Continental cities can build ships
- The haste spell remain in some units forever. In fact one of my archmages with that, lose the ability to cast spells.

Sorry if these have been previosly reported.

I can't reproduce your non-water connected cities can build ships issue. Are you sure the city doesn't border a lake? What ship are you able to build?

I should have been more clear in the first fix. It fixes a couple of issues where a unit gets outisde the number range checked in a pPlayer.getUnit(). One of those is the issue you described. I reworded the fix list to be more clear.

 

[Kael]

That's nice, but does the ai understand it?

What if you made it so that 2 acolytes can be upgraded to a priest at no cost?

Its okay, it knows it will be bringing a building of that type to the city so it performs the action from time to time. It doesn't grasp the concept of blocking religions or forcing religion spreads.

 

[Czar II]

I can't reproduce your non-water connected cities can build ships issue. Are you sure the city doesn't border a lake? What ship are you able to build?

Both, privateers and galleons. The city is in the middle of the continent and is connected by a river with other with a lake. I can sen you a save of the game.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

A request:

Could you break the downloads up some maybe 30megs per download. This bad boy is getting BIG!!!

 

[Kael]

A request:

Could you break the downloads up some maybe 30megs per download. This bad boy is getting BIG!!!

Unfortunatly no. Version 1.0 will be over 120 meg and will all be wrapped in an exe that automatically installs the mod (so people who aren't familiar with copying the files themselves will be able to easily install the mod). But because the install program is all one file I won't be able to break it up.

Sorry.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

Welp there goes us rural dialup service folks

 

[Czar II]

I can't reproduce your non-water connected cities can build ships issue. Are you sure the city doesn't border a lake? What ship are you able to build?

It is the AI that buids ships, no me

 

[Kael]

Welp there goes us rural dialup service folks

I know, Woodelf playtests the mod, which means he usually has to down each version 3-4 times before I release and he is on dialup. His poor modem hates FfH.

 

[Lunargent]

It is the AI that buids ships, no me

Are you sure that the AI hasn't researched Blood of the Pheonix? In .9 there is a bug where ressurected ships will respawn in the Capital, even if it's landlocked. I think ships won't be able to resurrect in 1.0

I'd only worry if the ships started moving.

 

[Kael]

Are you sure that the AI hasn't researched Blood of the Pheonix? In .9 there is a bug where ressurected ships will respawn in the Capital, even if it's landlocked. I think ships won't be able to resurrect in 1.0

I'd only worry if the ships started moving.

Good point.

 

[loki1232]

I was just thinking about the blood of the pheonix problem. What if there was a great wonder that could only be built in a costal city that gave all naval units built in it the immortality promotion (once)? However, It would act as the capital for the naval units, so there wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Czar II]

Are you sure that the AI hasn't researched Blood of the Pheonix? In .9 there is a bug where ressurected ships will respawn in the Capital, even if it's landlocked. I think ships won't be able to resurrect in 1.0

I'd only worry if the ships started moving.

Yeap, that`s the reason.