[MOD] Fall from Heaven

[BlazeRedSXT]

One thing you might want to mention... The change log and size of the mod suggests that you have added The Fantasy Civs to this mod... which is not the case.

Also, are Haarbal's current civs compatible with .80?

EDIT :: The last set I have released for .70 seem to be working correctly.. though I just checked his thread and it seems he will be updating something(?) soon. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=151834&page=3 ::


Cheers!

 

[Kael]

One thing you might want to mention... The change log and size of the mod suggests that you have added The Fantasy Civs to this mod... which is not the case.

Also, are Haarbal's current civs compatible with .80?

EDIT :: The last set I have released for .70 seem to be working correctly.. though I just checked his thread and it seems he will be updating something(?) soon. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=151834&page=3 ::


Cheers!

Although I thank Haarbal for his work in the changelog I definitly didn't add his civ's. Your right, that can be confusing. Although Haarbals 0.70 civs may work with 0.80 I would give him a chance to update them. I changed all the default civs to increase the level of difficulty and recommended that Haarbal make a similiar change his fantasy civs. So Im sure his 0.80 civs will be even better than his already excellent 0.70 civs.

 

[HeruFeanor]

No plans for our own forum, Civfanatics is home and FFH wouldn't be what it was without all the wonderful people here helping out.

The thing is, this mod is so huge an expansive that it seems difficult to discuss in one giant, linear forum thread. As evidence I make the point that I'm currently responding to a post you made yesterday, which is already two pages back.

I don't see that setting up your own site or forum to handle this would in any way be abandoning all the people here that are helping on the mod. On the contrary, it seems it would fascilitate that, as each feature idea or suggestion could then be sorted into it's own thread to be discussed properly. Furthermore, announcements about the mod's development or update status won't be lost on pages 50 or 60 of this gargantuan thread. I mean, if I hadn't decided to delve into the latter pages, I wouldn't even have known that 0.80 had been released.

 

[Gunner]

CFC kinda has a tradition to cram all discussion on any mod to just one thread. Check out the Rhye's of Civilization Mod for Civ3 (part 1, not part 2) thread to get an idea. I kinda like it this way but I think thats just becuase I'm used to it.

 

[loki1232]

Hey gunner haven't seen you since the RFRE mod. Glad to have your help here.

 

[HeruFeanor]

It's inefficient, and daunting to somebody who hasn't been involved in the discussion from the start. Especially when you want to sort the important announcements from the vast swaths of trivial discussion.

It might be worth suggesting to the mods of CivFanatics that it's worth starting up new forums for mods that unusually high volumes of discussion, like this one. That way you wouldn't have to "leave" this site.

Though I still don't see that setting up a forum elsewhere constitutes abandoning CivFanatics. It would simply mean that only major announcements on the mod get posted here, and all the trivial discussion would occur in properly organized threads on the other forum.

 

[Zurai]

It might be worth suggesting to the mods of CivFanatics that it's worth starting up new forums for mods that unusually high volumes of discussion, like this one. That way you wouldn't have to "leave" this site.

Who judges which mods get a subforum and which don't? Who moderates the subforums? Does the author get mod rights or not? Is it fair to the existing mods to add another dozen or more subforums they have to moderate?

It's not as simple as "oh, just make another forum!".

Though I still don't see that setting up a forum elsewhere constitutes abandoning CivFanatics. It would simply mean that only major announcements on the mod get posted here, and all the trivial discussion would occur in properly organized threads on the other forum.

Who polices this thread so that only "major announcements" clutter it up? Who pays for/operates the outside forum? Who moderates it? Not the author - he has enough to worry about just making a mod, he doesn't have time to moderate too.

Again, it's not so simple.

The currently existing solution is the easiest, and it hasn't seemed to scare anyone away yet.

 

[Haarbal]

One thing you might want to mention... The change log and size of the mod suggests that you have added The Fantasy Civs to this mod... which is not the case.

Also, are Haarbal's current civs compatible with .80?

EDIT :: The last set I have released for .70 seem to be working correctly.. though I just checked his thread and it seems he will be updating something(?) soon. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=151834&page=3 ::


Cheers!

getting on it right now

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

YAY! im finnally getting to download! (1 day late! GRRRRR) computer was inaccessable... 26% and counting!!!

 

[Lightzy]

I played a game on quick, large map, islands, 8AIs

got invaded a couple of times but I made sure to fill my cities with whatever defensive units I had and kept building my island, then invaded the nearby island and conquered it using horse archers and catapults,
then it was peaceful again up to late game techs with me being 3rd on the scoreboard.
built 3 archmages, 3 golems and declared war.
sent em to the next island, conquered the first city and then sent a golem to protect it, and just went rolling over the civs like that.
keep in mind it was on quick setting and mostly peaceful till late so most civs already had tier 4 units, and they certainly do not shrug off meteors.

there was no city I couldn't conquer using just those 3 meteor storms and then walking over it with one of the golems.. not even the most well defended capital. thats mostly thanks to the collateral damage the meteors do.

collateral damage should REALLY be taken away from them. it's practically an exploit.


btw, I don't build adepts so I didn't check how it works, but giving them that haste spell seems cumbersome if it works like a mage spell (instead of promotion).
I mean, it just means you now have to click another few buttons every turn to make sure your adepts get that extra bonus.
makes more sense to just give them a permanent +1 speed if you wanna do that.
of course, maybe thats just what you did, I don't build adepts so I never checked

all around great update.

BTW, I think the AI could invade better in island maps if galleys got an upgrade to their carry capacity.

 

[Sisonpyh]

Yeah I agree spellcaster/Archmages are a wee bit overpowered. I think the best solution (instead of nerfing them) would be add in the appropriate counters.

Maybe adding an anti-magic religion or techpath. Building improvement that gives you a 75% to deflect (not sure if this is possible) magical city attacks? Sort of like Civ4 vanilla SDI.

Maybe add in units like a Wizard Slayer, or more machinery/gunpowder units that have magic defense promotions etc.

I don't think spellcasters should be able bombard cities imo, the collateral damage they do is more than enough, in terms of usefullness. This could make gunpowder a more strategic resource to have, since civs with that could have the bombardment advantage.

 

[HeruFeanor]

Zurai, I'm going to start by pointing out that your post was rather rude. I was tempted to just not respond, for risk of starting a flame war, but instead I'm going to try and give constructive answers to your seemingly rhetorical questions.

Who judges which mods get a subforum and which don't? Who moderates the subforums? Does the author get mod rights or not? Is it fair to the existing mods to add another dozen or more subforums they have to moderate?

Presumably, the site's moderators get to make that choice. If they like, they could lay down some ground rules, such as "when the mod's thread surpasses 10 pages", though I think it would be better for the site's moderators to just pick and choose those which they, personally, think are deserving of it. Sure, it will lead to some whining from those mod makers who don't get their own forum, but there will always be whining.

As to who moderates it, I would assume the mod maker would be given moderator priviledges, though they don't necessarily have to be the sole moderator. Along with any existing mods that wish to take an active hand, the mod's creator could assign one or two other people they trust mod priviledges. For instance, Kael seems to trust woodelf, so why not ask him to help moderate?

I don't think it's a fair question to ask wether it's "fair" to give the existing moderators more forums to moderate, because those forums aren't being forced on them. They'd be the ones choosing wether or not to create them. It's their perogative. If they don't feel up to the task, they can either not create them, or find somebody else to moderate them. If they do choose to moderate the new forums, they can't really blame anybody else if they turn out to not be up to the task.

Who polices this thread so that only "major announcements" clutter it up?

On the whole, to be honest, I don't think it's a good idea to put new announcements in the original announcement thread. Even if that thread is sparse, those who don't follow the forum religiously will easily miss such things. When a major new version comes out, it should be a new thread.

Who pays for/operates the outside forum? Who moderates it? Not the author - he has enough to worry about just making a mod, he doesn't have time to moderate too.

Actually, I have access to vast swaths of webspace which is more then capable of hosting forum sites. I was considering offering that space up for it, though I don't want to make such an offer official until I feel I have something resembling a repotoire, and at least a smidge of trust, with Kael. I assume Kael would feel the same, as he likewise has no basis to know that I am trustworthy yet. As it stands, the brief exchange of messages on this thread is the only contact I've had.

However, if a state of trust were to be reached, I think this mod is more then deserving of forum space, and I would be willing to help in that regard. I'd be willing to take the time to setup the forums, and be a part-time moderator, and considering the wells of support and discussion this mod has generated, I don't think there would be a shortage of people willing to be full time moderators. It's just a question of finding one or two who are trustworthy.

The currently existing solution is the easiest, and it hasn't seemed to scare anyone away yet.

How do you know? Do you expect somebody who is scared away by this to stop in and post "Well, I was gonna help out, but this thread scared me away, goodbye?" I rather doubt it. I myself downloaded this mod two weeks ago, and was immediately hooked. I instantly had hundreds of suggestions in mind. However, I didn't join the forum to start discussing them until now, for the sole reason that there was only one linear thread discussing the mod, and it was already massive. When I finally DID decide to jump into it, it was mostly just to request a better context to discuss things in.

If I didn't have the resources on hand to make such a context happen if interest were expressed, I still don't think I would have said anything. I wonder, how many others are there who felt the same?

 

[Sisonpyh]

^^ Take it to PMs?

Seriously, lets keep on topic here guys.

Btw, I'm really enjoying the Hero units Kael, Bambur is a badass weaponsmith.

Edit: Haha, I take that back. Bambur was like level 10 and just died to two Rangers..and I can't rebuild him!

 

[kevjm]

Responding to some very old comments;

You said that there's a balance issue with resurrection a few pages back, if you stack 'em all um in a city. Perhaps if they ressurrected with minimum health, it wouldn't be so bad??

On the line of Ancient forests, evolving mines. For the ocean equivalent, could you just make it so the improvement you build on water resources will evolve in the same way?

Hope this is of some use, hope I'm not just wasting your time- I've had to restrain myself from downloading your mod onto my laptop at uni, I have too much work to do damnit!

 

[HeruFeanor]

Yeah I agree spellcaster/Archmages are a wee bit overpowered. I think the best solution (instead of nerfing them) would be add in the appropriate counters.

Maybe adding an anti-magic religion or techpath. Building improvement that gives you a 75% to deflect (not sure if this is possible) magical city attacks? Sort of like Civ4 vanilla SDI.

Maybe add in units like a Wizard Slayer, or more machinery/gunpowder units that have magic defense promotions etc.

I like the idea of magic defense. I know it's possible to give a unit a bonus vs. a certain unit category (such as "Mounted Units" or "Spellcasters"), but can you set that bonus to only apply on defense?

For the wizard slayer, I'd called it a "Witch Hunter" since that's a term already used in many fantasy contexts for that sort of character, and it just sounds cool.

It would be neat to see some Goblin or Gnomish steampunk type units, a la Warcraft. One could make the argument that since mana feeds of life force, mechanical contrivances that aren't "alive" are particularly resistent to the effects of magic (though that explination falls appart a bit when considering spells like meteor that generate a massive physical manifestation).

 

[veryfinemale]

Ok, I posted this a couple nights ago (last night?). I was hoping that .80 would fix it for me.

I can play this mod just fine, but when I save the game I have problems.
The game saves just fine, reloads just fine. I just get to make a move or two, when my 1st turn is over. I get completely booted. My computer is forced to reboot. Not sure what to do or how to fix this.

Am I the only one with this problem?

Any suggestions?

 

[svalovec]

I can't help you but I can sort of back you up by saying that many (if not all) FfH save games CTDT on me, but with my system I just use windows task manager (ctrl alt del) and select the 'switch to' Civilization IV option to get back to the game (possible after the 1.52 patch). Have not had this problem with vanilla civ but then again I have only played and reloaded a vanilla civ game a few times since .70 FfH and the 1.52 patch.

 

[Kael]

I played a game on quick, large map, islands, 8AIs

got invaded a couple of times but I made sure to fill my cities with whatever defensive units I had and kept building my island, then invaded the nearby island and conquered it using horse archers and catapults,
then it was peaceful again up to late game techs with me being 3rd on the scoreboard.
built 3 archmages, 3 golems and declared war.
sent em to the next island, conquered the first city and then sent a golem to protect it, and just went rolling over the civs like that.
keep in mind it was on quick setting and mostly peaceful till late so most civs already had tier 4 units, and they certainly do not shrug off meteors.

there was no city I couldn't conquer using just those 3 meteor storms and then walking over it with one of the golems.. not even the most well defended capital. thats mostly thanks to the collateral damage the meteors do.

collateral damage should REALLY be taken away from them. it's practically an exploit.


btw, I don't build adepts so I didn't check how it works, but giving them that haste spell seems cumbersome if it works like a mage spell (instead of promotion).
I mean, it just means you now have to click another few buttons every turn to make sure your adepts get that extra bonus.
makes more sense to just give them a permanent +1 speed if you wanna do that.
of course, maybe thats just what you did, I don't build adepts so I never checked

all around great update.

BTW, I think the AI could invade better in island maps if galleys got an upgrade to their carry capacity.

Ahh, thanks for the info, I havent playtested on Quick at all but it sounds like the problem probably isn't quick, its that the meteor spell is to effective.

Counter units will help, there is a Magic Resistance promotion coming in 0.90 but you are probably right and the meteors probably need their collateral damage and strength reviewed for balance.

 

[Kael]

Responding to some very old comments;

You said that there's a balance issue with resurrection a few pages back, if you stack 'em all um in a city. Perhaps if they ressurrected with minimum health, it wouldn't be so bad??

On the line of Ancient forests, evolving mines. For the ocean equivalent, could you just make it so the improvement you build on water resources will evolve in the same way?

Hope this is of some use, hope I'm not just wasting your time- I've had to restrain myself from downloading your mod onto my laptop at uni, I have too much work to do damnit!

My balance concern with ressurection was with a unit that automatically has a chance to ressurect. I would prefer ressurection as a spell that must be activated and gives the civ the choice of units that have died to bring back. This looks all the more appealing since it hurts so much to lose heroes now (Sisonpyh I feel your pain, I lost Bambur to a crossbowman last night).

In effect improvements do grow now. When you discover the appropriate techs they gain bonus's to their yield. So if its just an improvement to production/gold or food that already happens. The question is, outside of that, what would be the benifit of an "upgraded" mine or fish node?

 

[TheNewSaint]

I was gonna wait until you finaly closed up on this mod, maybe 2 0r 3 years in the future, but i cant.

Kael,

You have created a mod that you should be proud of. you should be proud of yourself for making it and every night before you fall asleep you should get a light hearted tingly feeling as you think "I made something that someone cares about" And so many people do care about this mod, and i know if i had any skills at all with anything, i would try to help you out. You are making excelent progress, you have everything planned out, and you manage to remain incredibly humble throughout it all. Not very often does a mod like this or a person like you come along that changes something so entirely that it is almost like turning a shoelace into a bowling ball, and, sticking with bad analogies, youe just scored a Turkey!!!

Please take this at face value. This mod is superb. I wish there was a better adjective for this but there isnt, so stupendously fantastical will have to work.