[MOD] Fall from Heaven

[loki1232]

Ok, one more thing i liked in Civ3 warhammer mod and which would look good also in this mod - units that create units from slain enemies. Like vampires creating other vampires from their victims, necromancers creating zombies, skeletons from dead, etc. What do u think, Kael ? Or have already implemented such things and i just haven't noticed ?

the way i see it, each of the five current religions would use units from various special group types in addition to the normal units.

Leaves:
Elves. Forest creatures?

Runes:
Dwarves. Disciples. Possibly some converted giants?

Order:
Disciples.

Overlords:
Demons. Sea Monsters. Unique ships (possibly heroic).

Veil:
Demons. Undead. Minions (skeletons and other things summoned by the undead things like Vamps). Dark Elves?

 

[loki1232]

Horses should be revealed with Animal Husbandry, that's what reveals it in my games.

I certainly didn't have this problem.

One quick note:
Why can't we change the CHitzen Itza wonder?

 

[woodelf]

the way i see it, each of the five current religions would use units from various special group types in addition to the normal units.

Leaves:
Elves. Forest creatures?

Runes:
Dwarves. Disciples. Possibly some converted giants?

Order:
Disciples.

Overlords:
Demons. Sea Monsters. Unique ships (possibly heroic).

Veil:
Demons. Undead. Minions (skeletons and other things summoned by the undead things like Vamps). Dark Elves?

From the Leaves maybe Ents or nymphs. I might be able to skin a spy into a nymph. No ent possiblity though. Animals.

Runes - Giants are good. Maybe ogres, trolls.

Order - goblins? I'm not 100% clear on them

Overlords - mermaids (like nymphs). And definitely sea monsters.

Veil - you hit them all

 

[loki1232]

From the Leaves maybe Ents or nymphs. I might be able to skin a spy into a nymph. No ent possiblity though. Animals.

Runes - Giants are good. Maybe ogres, trolls.

Order - goblins? I'm not 100% clear on them

Overlords - mermaids (like nymphs). And definitely sea monsters.

Veil - you hit them all

I don't generally think of goblins as good guys...

I would have included ogres and trolls, because they live in the same habitats as dwarves. However, they are normally protrayed as evil, and i wanted to put them in a chaos faction, but there weren't any.

Yes of course all the typical nature fantasy types should be with elves.
Just like all the typical water fantasy types should be with overlords.

 

[loki1232]

Now that i think about it, in the MoM mod humans were viewed as a resource like elves and klaxons. Once we get the fantasy civs that might work here.

 

[woodelf]

I like humans being a resource. That works.

 

[NarsilFMJ]

I just want to say thank you Kael for a simply wonderful mod. Even at this stage its, IMHO, better than almost every other mod out for Civ IV (not that a lot of other mods arn't great or anything, this is just much more immersive for me, which is strange because I don't even really like fantasy that much!) so once again thanks for a great mod and keep up the good work.

 

[Kael]

I just want to say thank you Kael for a simply wonderful mod. Even at this stage its, IMHO, better than almost every other mod out for Civ IV (not that a lot of other mods arn't great or anything, this is just much more immersive for me, which is strange because I don't even really like fantasy that much!) so once again thanks for a great mod and keep up the good work.

Awesome to hear, I'm glad you are enjoying it!

 

[Kael]

K, I have a balance question. I initially gave the adept line of units bombard abilities because, well, I didn't have anything else for them to do. Now that I have spells I am wondering if I should leave the bombard abilites on them, or reserve them just for siege equipment? Or do I put bombard abilites on the spells themselves? So you fly the fireball up beside the city and then select bombard?

 

[NarsilFMJ]

I like the idea of having the fireball itself able to bombard. To be honest I never use the adept's at all, just wait for the next unit in the line to come out and then use them as support for my armies.

 

[wilboman]

K, I have a balance question. I initially gave the adept line of units bombard abilities because, well, I didn't have anything else for them to do. Now that I have spells I am wondering if I should leave the bombard abilites on them, or reserve them just for siege equipment? Or do I put bombard abilites on the spells themselves? So you fly the fireball up beside the city and then select bombard?

I rarely if ever bother with adepts, they're a rather useless rung on the magical ladder IMO. But since the levels further up have both the bombard and spellcasting abilities, I tend to use an "mage rush"-strategy as soon as I get them: build a stack of mages, protect them with a stack of melee units, and shove them all up to the nearest enemy city. First I hit bombard to get rid of the city defence, then I build all the fireballs (since fireball is a promotion, they can do it even after exhausting their moves), which I then use to pound defenders and then mop up with my melee units.

It's a ridiculously effective tactic, and although I'd be sad to see it go, it is perhaps one you should do something about (since I have yet to build a siege engine, and find them redundant in the face of spellcasters); I like the idea of fireballs being able to bombard instead.

 

[mamimo]

A small thing about balance :

I played 4 games on prince difficulty :
In my last 3 games I have played I couldn't expand enough while the computer (because of the difficulty) had twice the cities & further in the tech tree.
It's the same in normal game, but here I can't get close because of the hords of barbariens that keep my workers in the cities.
It might be the fact that I was in all 3 time alone in a big continent, thus my expantion alone couldn't cover all the land.
I the first game I was acually in a continent with other Civ & I could "beat" the difficulty.
It's strange in noble the game is pretty easy, you got almost all the wonders & you can be in the same level if not more of the AI, regarding rate of expantion/techs when alone in a continent & in prince difficulty you can't (@least not me).

Maybe it's just me.... but maybe the gold revenue is not balanced enough in the begining for expanding fast enough in prince diff.

Is it just me??

 

[mamimo]

K, I have a balance question. I initially gave the adept line of units bombard abilities because, well, I didn't have anything else for them to do. Now that I have spells I am wondering if I should leave the bombard abilites on them, or reserve them just for siege equipment? Or do I put bombard abilites on the spells themselves? So you fly the fireball up beside the city and then select bombard?

Yes, I think you should take the bombard off all the spellcasting units & make some of the spells with bombard effects, lets say fire ball has bombard effect (Mage) & adept that has a lower class spell (may be magic arrow) but has more range or something & is less powerfull.
So if you are a mage & have two spells, you can choose to get closer (2 steps) & damage the city also or stay further (3-4 steps) & use a lesser spell without bombard effect.

 

[Lightzy]

btw, this game is a bit more hard on noble than vanilla civ4.
I think its because the slowness of building and lack of ways to boost your economy early on, and the handicap the computer gets in city maintenance becomes more critical.
Or possibly I'm imagining things.

Re: siege equipment -- I never built any either. 4-5 adepts in a stack all bombarding together and in 1-2 turns its over (I prefer to rush techs to strong cavalry rather than mages).

 

[Dragonlord]

Re the balance question:

Normal siege units (catapult, cannon) are totally useless now, I never build them OR the Siege Workshop (OK, that gives the Chariot too, but I just stick with Horse Archers).

I feel the Mage-type units should have their bombard abilities removed and keep only their spells, with Adepts getting some weaker spell like a Magic Arrow (as someone said already).

I'm against giving the Spells bombard ability, they're fine with the straightforward collateral damage they have (Fireball). Picture it: you're throwing a Fireball, then you stop it at the city border, order it to Bombard... and then? Attack anyway, giving it a second effect? Or does it disappear? Or sit around till the next turn?
Naaah, give the Bombard to the true Siege units, giving an incentive to build them and make the Mage line into pure Spellcasters.

My 2 cents.

 

[TheJopa]

I don't know if anyone said this before, but you don't need toer to build cooper golem, even though description says so (bug which is easy to correct)
Good mod!!!

 

[woodelf]

K, I have a balance question. I initially gave the adept line of units bombard abilities because, well, I didn't have anything else for them to do. Now that I have spells I am wondering if I should leave the bombard abilites on them, or reserve them just for siege equipment? Or do I put bombard abilites on the spells themselves? So you fly the fireball up beside the city and then select bombard?

I'll join the list of people that seldom build adepts. Actually I've found that I seldom bombard in FfH.

 

[woodelf]

A small thing about balance :

I played 4 games on prince difficulty :
In my last 3 games I have played I couldn't expand enough while the computer (because of the difficulty) had twice the cities & further in the tech tree.
It's the same in normal game, but here I can't get close because of the hords of barbariens that keep my workers in the cities.
It might be the fact that I was in all 3 time alone in a big continent, thus my expantion alone couldn't cover all the land.
I the first game I was acually in a continent with other Civ & I could "beat" the difficulty.
It's strange in noble the game is pretty easy, you got almost all the wonders & you can be in the same level if not more of the AI, regarding rate of expantion/techs when alone in a continent & in prince difficulty you can't (@least not me).

Maybe it's just me.... but maybe the gold revenue is not balanced enough in the begining for expanding fast enough in prince diff.

Is it just me??

I've been tinkering with the Handicap files because the leap from Noble to Prince is HUGE IMO. I mean it's like night and day to me. On Noble I never lose, on Prince I win about 3 out of 10. For me the difference is the optimal city number introduced in Civ4. The penalty for early expansion dooms the player in gold revenue, which leads to tech deficiency, and then a painful death.

 

[loki1232]

I'll join the list of people that seldom build adepts. Actually I've found that I seldom bombard in FfH.

This is definitely me too.

 

[Dragonlord]

I've been tinkering with the Handicap files because the leap from Noble to Prince is HUGE IMO. I mean it's like night and day to me. On Noble I never lose, on Prince I win about 3 out of 10. For me the difference is the optimal city number introduced in Civ4. The penalty for early expansion dooms the player in gold revenue, which leads to tech deficiency, and then a painful death.

It helps to play as a Financial leader. Build Markets, make citizens into Merchants as necessary, build cottages early and make sure you get Trading and Currency as soon as possible - you can make loads of money trading.

Using all these tricks I'm currently well on the way to winning by Domination on Emperor difficulty on a Large map, playing the Aggressive and Financial Dark Elf (Haarbals Civ) - and I'm one of the tech leaders, too...