[MOD] NEW BALANCE for Warlords (was slower tech + other changes mod)

[Immacolata]

Okay I will try playing my next game at princely levels. I might try for domination on this map, since we're all stuck on Pangea. You may run, but you cannot hide. Mwahahaha!

A dom victory is not something I have bothered with before, since getting an army up took so long time. Not now. You can actually make a war without having planned it for 300 years

Still, the medieval times need some love. Ill make notes of my era changes in my next game. Tribal and classic eras seemed fine, enjoyed my game there. Medieval was short and trite. It alwas was, ImO, not a fault of the mod, perhaps rather the game. I feel that Sevomod gave the medieval age a nice flair to it.
[edit]

(CHANGE) Musketmen (and UU's based on them): +1 STR to 10. This was a hard call, but I have to admit they feel underpowered in game after game I've played. I don't think of them as uberunits, I know they are less effectual guynpowder units in history and it took hundreds of years to get gunpowder right... but in the *game* they are a little too close to being White Elephants... so a little more STR to them.

Yes yes I noticed. Im churning out musketmen now. They are nice for cracking open those cities of my enemy. But overall, musketmen have a tiny window of opportunity in the game. Would it be possible for them to appear a tiny bit earlier, to lengthen the period of their efficiency? Once people get cannons and bombardiers, its bye bye to musketmen.

I think Sevomod fixed this by inserting sulphur as a ressource required for musketmen and gunpowder, but not for later tech because sulphur is made syntehtically. he also made a bronze cannon and pushed the cannon and bombardier a bit back in the tech tree to allow a longer reign of musketmen.

Anyways, I like this evening of the old age, morning of the new, where you have k-nnnniggets and musketmen duking it out. Its an interesting time, the muskets are powerful yet not so powerful that they dominate the old melee and archery types. I would love to have this short time last a while longer Maybe one needs to balance out the musketmen a bit, not sure if they have a weakness against medieval units, but I do remember seeing +25% against gunpowder as a promo to some medieval units.

Oh, wait. You did!

Grenadiers with Rifling and Chemistry:
They usually occur hundreds of years before Rifleman in most games. Uh... no. So now they need Chemistry and Rifling. You can still get them at the same time as Rifleman now, but you'll have rifleman at the same time at least... ALSO this has the effect of keeping Musketmen in the game longer as you can't beeling in one-tech to a superior unit.

Great, we share similar views on musketmen

NAVY SEAL can board SUBMARINES.

Does this apply for marine, too? It should, the navy seal is a game winner uu on maps with lots of islands or coastal cities. Having them board submarines without regular vanilla marines seems a bit unfair to me. Its not going to affect a lot of games at all, but it is a bit potentially abusive for humans. Im not sure the AI handles it well, does it? To be able to make a sub, then make a marine to put on it? The navy seal is out of the box like a knight with a gun. Moves two squares, can attack from ships without a turn penalty and it boards subs, too!!!

 

[Dearmad]

1. I have to admit. I have yet to launch a nuke in any my game yet and play through after that. I'm simply not that aggresive... so I'm unsure really how strong or not they are.

I don't think MP should cost more... nukes are already hard enough to get into the game. I like having stockpiles of them...

The idea that missiles cost more (at least for awhile) to civs who didn't build MP sounds interesting to me, though. What do other people think? Especially those who use nukes a lot...?

2.
I agree. But as I wrote above in other posts. That mod is sophisticated and emulating it in any way would demand a lot oftime and effort. I think it might be wiser to let the originator make it and get the kinks ironed out of it. Once he's got it going for warlords, I'll ask if I can use it in this mod, or adapt it for this mod if it needs to be done, then include it, or possible have it as a seperate pack. This will be awhile in the future though... Bug the other guy to hurry up.

3.
There is global warming in the game. What is it you want that would be different? Do you mean it should be more sensitive and start earlier with les spollution or just from cutting down trees?

Actually I'm unsure exactly what does trigger it.

 

[Dearmad]

Okay I will try playing my next game at princely levels. I might try for domination on this map, since we're all stuck on Pangea. You may run, but you cannot hide. Mwahahaha!

<snip>

Does this apply for marine, too? It should, the navy seal is a game winner uu on maps with lots of islands or coastal cities. Having them board submarines without regular vanilla marines seems a bit unfair to me. Its not going to affect a lot of games at all, but it is a bit potentially abusive for humans. Im not sure the AI handles it well, does it? To be able to make a sub, then make a marine to put on it? The navy seal is out of the box like a knight with a gun. Moves two squares, can attack from ships without a turn penalty and it boards subs, too!!!

SEALS:
Wait... SEALS moves two squares? Why didn't I know this!? Seriously!?!? OMG I just realized I've never played as the Americans in any game! I always select random and play whoever, so I assumed I played everybody by now... LOL.

I might just take out that little change... Have to investigate this.

Diff levels:
Yeah try Prince... it challenges me. There are times when I think, "oh this is too easy..." but then something inevitably happens and things get hairy.

Muskets:
I think the way Bombardiers are pushed back now makes for an interesting length of time with Musketmen/Musketeers. Did you try it out?

Middle ages:
They do seem a little short... but they are usually very violent in my games... so I neve thought them too short. I'll keep this in mind when I play my next game.

 

[Immacolata]

Doh, sorry, wrong. they don't have 2 squares, they have amphibious and they have march, ie healing while moving. I blew a fuse there, but I find that the seals are generally good units on coastal maps when you want to punch faces. It is rather good as it is vanilla, if you ask me. Now imagine a fleet of submarines with seal in it just sneaking up to someones capital and taking it the same turn.

Im generally against transporting troops on subs, leave that to spies, settlers, missionaries and explorers. It is probably not going to affect a great number of games, but transporting a large enough number seals to be able to take an enemy city with millions of citizens should require a bit more space than just an underwater tin can provides

AS for the middle ages. Yes, violent indeed. Classical era had me in one war only, and that was with Kublai Khan who stole "my" barbarian town. I decided to take it back with some axemen and my egyptian war chariots, then sued for peace with a bribe after a few pillaging ops. But once I hit the medieval I went for Isabellas jugular and have been permanently at war more or less since that. Hmm, reminds me of the medieval times in Europe. One prolonged war wasnt it? More or less ^^. Still, felt short.

Btw, is production speed adjusted with time scale? As I am playing Epic, I am still happy to see it takes me around 4 turns to spit out units from my best cities, sometimes just 3, 8 or 9 from the worst. Feels fast. But that is the feeling you wanted, right?

 

[Prussia]

What are the install instructions?

I have unzipped the file but I don't know where to put it...

EDIT: Sorry, Did not see the readme.

 

[Immacolata]

Hmm, music seems to go quite often when playing with this mod. Any idea why?

 

[Subaru WrXxX]

Tried a few games last nite & I think your right, smartmap is messing things up. Everything was cool until the resource change & for some reason now, i always seem to have a slight " glitch " where resources are concerned. Ive been opening worldbuilder each time just to test things before I get a few hours immeresed in2 a game that well, will be messed up because of resources. Heres some examples for feedback purposes....

1st map I made....I noticed I had 4 gold resources about where my settler started. I was thinking sweet hah this is gonna make an awesome capital. Then I explored a bit & there were 6, then 8, then at least 15 all within a 25x25 radius. I had to open worldbuiler & look & to my suprise everything else seemed fine except only 2-3 tiles of aluminum worldwide but there was a crazy amount of gold on my continent. Not a reason 2 complain but it would of given me a really big advantage & Im against nething to unbalancing....Started a new map, this one was going ok, all the land resources seemed fine but didnt notice any fish or whales, a normal amount of crabs & clams tho. Opened worldbuilder again & keep in mind Im making 160x100 really big maps & not one whale tile to be found, anywhere. Counted maybe 5 or 6 fish tiles worlwide which is also off. I ruled out that its bluemarble terrain becuz I uninstalled it & loaded another map & had about the same problem as the last one. So I figured let me try a regular vanilla civ4 build map like terra & continental. Made 2 decent maps. Its a shame huge is just way to small as I really like the terra maps. Newayz everything seemed even which is a welcome change from way to many fish from before the change but IMO theres way to less now & there should be more fish resources than nething else, I must agree with Immacolata 100% on this

" Seafood tiles should perhaps not be reduced too much. Historically coastal civs have done marvellously, due to the ease of travel by sea, and the danger and slow speed of travelling by land. "

Case in point, look at Americas start & even now where the major, most booming & succesful cities are, all on the coasts. In its early stages seafood advantages were alot more of an importance of founding a city on the coast then say now, modern reasons would be for trade/land value purposes but in alot of civs history, great cities were more often than not coastal cities & most thrived because of the addition of seafood. I mean its like your out & you see 2 gurls & there twins. You can have either one & both are identical in everyway except one can cook her ass off & one cant, which one are you gonna go 4 haha. My point being not having as many fish makes building near the coast not as much as a priority as past Civ games have made it, which in reality is how it was in our history. Now Im finding myself starting alot more inland near hills & one & if Im lucky 2 food sources & when I get horses/bronze/iron working & reveal horses, copper & iron, I totally neglect the coast completely as those cities do poorly w/o fish. Just feels really, really off.

Ok im done rambling. But it is weird how the normal maps seemed alot more balanced in everyway & did have alot more fish than the 160x100 smartmaps I made. I think your right, the new changes are conflicting with smartmap somehow. Hope this wouldnt be 2 much ofa request but in the future would u be willing to make a release w/o the resource changes for smartmap users? I hope I dont come off 2 picky but I really get immersed in2 the game & really like all the changes so far as it makes for a much improved game except for this resource thing. I know Im not the only one who uses smartmap as the downloads for it are way up there & if u search the forum, alot of ppl play with plus 20 civs on bigger smartmaps then my 160x100 size. Honestly if I knew how to make the game have more civs like those ppl I would play witha larger map myself but Ive experimented with the next 2 sizes up 180x104 & 200 x 108 I believe & if you only have 18 total civs the barbarians occupy way 2 much land, become redicolously strong in the late game & in the early game appear in way to many numbers & wipe out a number of civs completely. While on the subject, in the future would be cool to have the option merged in with this mod to allow for all the civs to be played, I've seen a few modders doing this, will find links later.

About difficulties, I used to play on Noble but in the late game Id seem to run away with it & play on Prince now. About nukes, we play similarly in that regard, Ive never used them. But making them more expensive for people w/o MP seems like a gr8 idea & realistic, Id def. go 4 that.

Btw I stricly play new balance speed now, you were right, everything seems perfect on that. Only made it to around 1000 BC tho b4 I become frustrated by the resources being off, open worldbuilder, get pissed & start a new game. Havent tried epic out yet,...when the resource kink or w/e is goin on with smartmap gets worked out I will give it a try so ppl have some feedback on that. If epic seems ok ill eventually switch over as the 800 plus turns isa big plus 4 me. Thx again 4 the gr8 work.

 

[Spartan117]

@dearmad

this mod is looking quite good. i dont know why ethnic units werent added in the original gameplay, unaltered strentghs does not affect balance, but anyway, ironclads and frigates did bombard cities( the civil war,etc...), and this is taking away an advantage for a strong navy for balance..

interesting to see clearing of jungles until biology...

by the way i think submarines should get attack bonus against battleships

 

[Immacolata]

Yes, actually the british navy bombarded copenhagen in 1807, many died and the town was heavily damaged. Was done with man-o-wars I believe, however. But point being that removing bombarding by those ships could be reconsidered.

 

[Dearmad]

I'll answer most of the questions I can see:

Immacolata:
I relooked at the speed file. When I added NEW BALANCE speed, I readjusted every other speed back to its original paceing. My thought was that if I didn't add in the name, then it was unmodded. In looking over the file, though, MARATHON speed *should* work just fine. The *only* thing I adjusted that affects all speeds is that the game starts at 10,000BC, so there are some turns in the beginning where the years whizz by a bit.

Transporting SEALS by subs seems on its way out. You have some good points.

Music- untouched by my hands. I DID adjust it so that the CITY noise you hear when you double click on a city to access that screen is a quieter, but that is not music. I've noticed no problems with music when I'm playing.
---

Subaru:
I tested that other mapmaker now a bit and yes there is something going on with resource distribution that comes from the mapmaker I think. I manipulated resource production through the XML files. In combination I think this dooms a lot of resources in maps made by that mapmaker. If it used or had an option to use the STANDARD resourece distribution pattern, rather than its own, that would fix things, I think.

Seafood:
The biggest reason cities on the coast survived in early America is trade and the fact that this is where you start when you settle..., not so much seafood eating, I think. This is reflected in the game. However, having said that
Fish, when you use a standard mapmaker, are pretty common- I set them to be at least 1 per player or so... I see lots of them when I make maps. In practice I've never seen so few of them that getting them wasn't very easy.

Manhatten Project: I'll see what is possible given my limited modding abilities. I agree there should be some small advantage to making this wonder.
---

Spartan:

Subs do have an advantage vs. battleships. You can pay for two of them for every battle ship. In my experience two subs can take out a battleship easily. I lowered the cost of subs and raised the cost of battleships. This is the advantage I designed them to have after a lot of thinking. Battleships are not helpless vs. subs and I don't think I want them to be so.

The str/cost ratio for subs & bbs is:
0.15 vs. 0.13. This means subs are a little more cost effective but don't forget they are not as powerful in an absolute way, meaning you need to pack them together and actually use stealth to their advantage. I'm a BIG sub fan in the game (I even changed the sounds they make) and play with them a lot. They seem very powerful and fun to me with the changes I made to them.

Frigate/Ironclad bombarding:
Ok, I'll include it back in and see how it goes. But if the AI spams me with meaningless attacks using these ships... out it goes again. I find it too advantageous for the human, but maybe this has changed since Warlords has changed other AI things...

 

[Mythinite]

Excellent mod, I love it! Civics, resources, research... It's all a yummy bunch of changes that greatly enhances the gameplay experience for me. Keep up the good work!

There's just a tiny detail that bothers me about your jungle changes...

Building a windmill on a jungle/hill tile requires biology but with gunpowder I can build a mine (which clears the jungle) and then replace it with a windmill. A small glitch but see below...

In vanilla civ you can build camps on top of forest/jungle without clearing them in the process. Would it be possible to adopt this behavior for all improvements built in jungle? This would grant you the benefit of the resources while still suffering the jungle penalties, until biology.
Of course it might be an all or nothing setting for forest/jungle which would make resources in forests extra neat "by accident", I wouldn't know...

 

[Dearmad]

Yup. I can do that... Thanks for the heads up. It'll be in the next release along with a few other of the minor tweaks mentioned above. A few days I think.

Nice use of ellipses after you mention the word Jungle... I thought you were going to jump on me for having that change int hte mod like everyone else... and, despite my promise otherwise, I'd have to get on my "respect the awsome might of the jungle" bandwagon!

 

[Dearmad]

Ok. 2.3a is up. Incorporates the changes from feedback in this thread. SAFE to update from 2.3 in mid game.

Readme is at the first post of this thread. File link is there as well.

 

[Immacolata]

Im just about to hit the frigate age in my epic scale game. As for units, the production time is just fine. I realized that I hadn't seen a lot of the enemy troops, but man, they are here now O.o. Oh, and it is Prince level. I guess Im just lucky or too good. Next game will be one step up the ladder of challenge.

The useless AI bombard attacks, yes, I remember now. To be honest, I really had forgotten, but now that you brought it up, I do remember a game where a frigate lay outside one of my coastal cities and bombarded, but never did anything like invade. So yes, thinking about it, you might remove it I suppose. Even if it is historical and what not, its just not terribly useful overall if it makes the AI wonky.

BTW does this fix the pasture/plantation/farms/mines oddity with jungle squares? As mythinite, I think that it should be possible to gain acces to improvements on jungle squares with ressources... unless it is exploitable. But Ive had pigs next to my capital since year 10.000 bc and still havent been able to really use them &#172;_&#172;. Yet I can run banana plantations and dig mines.

Think of it like this: mankind has been able to clear jungle since invention of fire, to clear plots for farming. But wholesale removal requires modern technology. So how about it, guvernor?

A question to anyone really. How is unit upkeep? I don't understand it really. I have an absolutely MASSIVE now, and only moderate cash flow problems. I am running with Theocracy to boost the morale of my troops and vassalage.

[Edit]

Oh btw, I just entered the industrial age after a NICE long period of time with muskets and a little cannons. Thanks mate, it was appreciated. Of all units, I love the musketmen animations the most. Can't explain why, but it gives me a bit of pleasure everytime I see their ridiculously crude guns, yet powerful, fire So nows it has become the age of riflemen and grenadiers, and it took nice and long so I got some fun out of the musketmen. Glad you did this change.

 

[VimesUK]

Hello

I have read this on page one...

***IMPORTANT*** MARATHON (1170 turns) speed is SHORTER than EPIC (1865 turns) AND NEW BALANCE (1196 turns) speed, as I have not mooded that speed. Again, the speed this mod is DESIGNED for is NEW BALANCE- make SURE YOU SELECT IT!

...and so I assume that even though the epic game would represent 1865 turns this mod would give a better playing experience, in terms of slower techs and enjoying an 'age' for longer by playing with the 'New Balance' option...?

Sorry if it is a really obvious question but I just want to make sure that I am right before I start a game

 

[Immacolata]

Start the game. The "normal" speed of Warlords (some 400-500 turns I think) has been replaced with Dearmad's customized New Balance speed of 1196 turns. It says so in the menu even. There is no Normal speed now, it reads "New Balance". Epic has the same name but is now a whoppin' 1865 turns. Marathon is unchanged, ie. the stock game's 1170 turns. Got it?

 

[Dearmad]

BTW does this fix the pasture/plantation/farms/mines oddity with jungle squares? As mythinite, I think that it should be possible to gain acces to improvements on jungle squares with ressources... unless it is exploitable. But Ive had pigs next to my capital since year 10.000 bc and still havent been able to really use them ¬_¬. Yet I can run banana plantations and dig mines.

The pigs... were in a jungle tile? I've never seen that before. What map style was this?

Although historically when pigs are introduced to jungles they do OK... but Imean just game mechanic-wise, I've enver seen a pig tile be formed in a jungle.

And Morgan UK: Immacolata explained it well, does it make sense now? Just select the New Balance speed and try that out.

 

[Subaru WrXxX]

Congrats Dearmad. Just went 2 download 2.3a & under most popular files ur in the top 10. Since Im the 1st one 2 notice or at least post it anyway, that means I get absolutly nothing! haha newayz I was about 2 start a new game & saw a few options under smartmap that caught my attention. Bonus Placement, Bonus Density & Goodies, ill try setting them all 2 standard if there not already & see if that fixes our lil smartmap/this mods resource problem. Will update l8r when I get back in.

EDIT: Just got in & about 2 start a new smartmap w/ ur mod now, I think I found where the problem was. I noticed 2.3a was about 200kb shorter then 2.3, what all got um axed hah neway?....damn, just loaded a new 160x100 map, it somewhat helped with the fish problem, I counted about 15 total but no whales at all. Making a seperate version just for smartmap users is 2 much 2 ask but is there anyway you could tell me which files I need to delete/edit so its back to normal? The normal generated maps are actually improved by your mod but the smartmaps are just off & are ruining it for me. I agree most of the reason early American cities in particular thrived because of trade more than seafood but it did play a role in alot of early civs thriving coastal cities. Also in terms of actual gameplay there is no real chance for a coastal city to really thrive or even a reason to build one over a resource backed inland city, besides trade if there are no resources for the coastal city. Hope I dun sound 2 picky or w/e but I refuse to play the game w/o your mod now & how smartmap is making maps with it now, its takin some of the realism/quality out of it 4 me. Thanks.

 

[Dearmad]

The length of the ICBM sound got axed a bit. It's half the size I originally had it at.

Interstingly about coastal cities- I tend to found them. I find trade important. But everyone has their own playstyle, I'm sure.

Seriously, what do you find problematic with the regular maps? Why not skip using smartmap?

 

[Immacolata]

Seriously, what do you find problematic with the regular maps? Why not skip using smartmap?

Or even better, ask smartmaps maker to update his program to behave properly with mods.

Btw, is it just me that find teching in late game uncomfortably slow? Im worrying that the game ends before Im able to reach even one of the tech tree ends.