[mod] Warlords: Total Realism Gold

Another suggestion. What about the Mehter Team (Mehter Takimi). I think they played an important role inside the Turkish Military for a long time. They have been established at 1286 - way before any military used "music" as a morale effect.

I think that a Mehter Unit should be made and by merging with a unit or units (as the general) they should be able to magnify the morale of the troops. Can this be made? In that aforesaid link I gave, you can find mehter and its picture.
 
Now to return to subject:

Walter, which Turkish special units and buildings did your team decide to put into TR? I am joining to military on the 12th and until that day I want to help in everything I can.

Did you see the pictures I posted previously at the forum? I am sure you will find them.

Hi tahnkout,

At that time, we are busy tuning the last improvement of our last release and its patch. For example, Mexico and I are finishing the Pandemic system....
Thereafter, Walter and Andreas will try to find time to reskin as more as possible units we don't like. Maybe some Turkish units will be included in this reskinning pool. I'm sure that at least one (Baltaci) will be remade. As you told us weeks ago, Baltaci means "Axe Bearer" and our unit fight with a spear. So, it will be changed. Thanks, again. :goodjob: Note that Andreas is meeting great great problem with your Hermitage class building. As Turkish architecture is very curved, buildings are very uneasy to create.

I newly ask you this question and hope to have 2-3 answers (no more):
What can be a very representative Turk or Ottoman National unit ? Remember that this unit is limited in number and is very representative of the civ.

Hian the Frog.
 
Another suggestion. What about the Mehter Team (Mehter Takimi). I think they played an important role inside the Turkish Military for a long time. They have been established at 1286 - way before any military used "music" as a morale effect.

I think that a Mehter Unit should be made and by merging with a unit or units (as the general) they should be able to magnify the morale of the troops. Can this be made? In that aforesaid link I gave, you can find mehter and its picture.

Interesting idea. A "music" unit that can be merged with a Warlord to give a bonus. Very interesting. :goodjob:

I will submit the idea to the Team to know if they like and if it is easily doable.

Hian the frog.
 
Then sit and watch. You have already filed way too many complaints about the mod. Saying so much and doing nothing... quite a politician you are...
What do you mean "saying so much and doing nothing"? Isn't that what a suggestion is? What was I supposed to do when all my ideas are rejected anyway?? I'll probably do some changes, but for my personal tweaked mod, since nobody here appreciates my ideas

Hi, Fachy,
this is my first and also last post concerning your amount of posts.
Good!

you said, that you don´t want to play the mod, because it is not yet finished. You want to play it only, if it is nearly perfect.
So, this means, you will never play it, because so long, as there is still one person in the team, the mod will be developed further.
Developed is something, and developed without bugs, crashes, historical errors and imbalances is something else

Furthermore it is hurting for us, and very respectless of you, to say, "No, i don´t play it" but make a lot of "suggestions" how to "improve" it, and give comments about things, you CANNOT understand without testing it.
I also cannot say, " no, i don´t like driving a ferrari, it has a bad track-control in curves, the shock absorbers are to hard, and the steering-abilities to soft", if i never drived such a car, but only red the manual... do you understand what I mean?
But it's not illogical to say "it has a bad color" without driving it, right? I haven't went through deep details...

It is impossible, stupid and just arrogant to give a comment on thinks you don´t know.
Shows how extremely well-bred you are my friend

I played civ, I modded for civ, and just coz you cannot, doesn't mean I cannot.

let´s make a compromise: Play TR2.1 (don´t forget the patch) at least 10 hours, than you may give again your comments. Otherwise let all the other qualified people give their comments and hold back, please.
Read all my previous posts, will you?

Can´t you realize, that your behavior could influence possible future users NOT to play the mod, because you are giving incompetent comments?
Then why wouldn't the mod makers answer my "alleges" point-by-point to avoid that?

I am a patient man with lots of humor and appreciation, but you are really annoying me... always negative critics
My first post was all about encouragement and how great I thought the mod was. I also said that reason behind my interest in this specific mod was because it's one of my favorites. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered (I also said I'll shut up, but you obviously skipped that part, too)

soo.. end of my frustrated monologe... and begin of continued ignoring of "Fachy-posts" to avoid a depression...:sarcasm:
You're the main reason why am I posting again.. sarcasm of fate!

greetz, Charly
Nice meeting you Charly, I hope you keep your promise by not posting again. Thanks
 
To Hian,

My oh my... I think that Akinci's (Akincilar) should make a point. They were attackers/scouts that were very quick, powerful. With horses of course. I will let you know if I find more.
 
To Hian,

My oh my... I think that Akinci's (Akincilar) should make a point. They were attackers/scouts that were very quick, powerful. With horses of course. I will let you know if I find more.

hi, tahnkout!
You asked, what we will do for units for the turkish civ in civ 4...
here a little "present": i´ll create the turkish battlecruiser T.C.G Yavuz (ex german SMS Göben) to increase turkish military power of ww1-era in civ4 :D

many greeting, Charly
 
hi, tahnkout!
You asked, what we will do for units for the turkish civ in civ 4...
here a little "present": i´ll create the turkish battlecruiser T.C.G Yavuz (ex german SMS Göben) to increase turkish military power of ww1-era in civ4 :D

many greeting, Charly

IIRC, Yavuz was the longest serving military ship in modern history, and one that made prominent impact on it (hell, it might have saved Turkey from Russian landing at Bosphorus, which would make Gallipoli impossible, and that would change so much...). :goodjob:
 
yes u r right about yavuz which makes total sense to me. you can also make a medieval age battle ship the famous KADIRGA. thanx for informing me
 
To Hian,

My oh my... I think that Akinci's (Akincilar) should make a point. They were attackers/scouts that were very quick, powerful. With horses of course. I will let you know if I find more.

Ok. Let's imagine that this unit can be THE national unit for Turks/Ottoman.
I ask you to PM to Walter, Charly and me some infos and some of your personnal idea about it: cost, tech, str, mvt, pre requisite,....in fact all we need for an XML sheet. Also a link or picture of the unit.

Hian the Frog.
 
ok I will do the research, just I need is one or two days... cheers!
 
Ok so Barb cities are easily taken on the world map without walls. But it needs to be taken into account that many barb setttlements did not have walls. A more realistic option would be to giv ebarb settlements more soldiers in setttlements, but weaker defences. Also certain Barb settlements could start off larger from the beginning of the game.

Possibility of making barbs into 'mini nations?' These nations would fit into their own diplomatic group. THere would be many mini- nations ideally. As you say barbs as one diplomatic entity would be unrealistic. With the adition of more civs in BTS maybe this issue will resolve itself, but there will be extra barb cities anyway and the increasing need for diplomatic organisation.

In response to the Issue of celts in Ireland Walter i'd like to say that their strongest settlements were in central france, andd so celt civ should be there, next to franks. As I said the Franks and celts would be surrounded bt barbs, and therefore would have to unite france/ Germany in conquest/ possibly in the future diplomacy. The situation within 'france' was hostile between tribes. You might even consider removing the Franks as a civ and making them a powerful barb city, leaving Brennus to unite 'France area', whilst being subject to pressure from Italy's troops. Franks could be an emergent civ if you add revolutions mod.

In response to your idea on weakening Mongol troops in desert Fachy, this would be unbalanced.

Walter RTR is a realistic mod, check it out if you haven't already :)
It gives excelent info on the roman army before and after marian period.

Antazioch marriage to families at other end of world wouldn't likely be possible . A clever AI would realise that maintainance costs would be high. The AI could be convinced that you were 'giving' it the cities. But AI won't accept cities which are too far away if you've ever tried to give cities like that. In other words it would be like an agreement where you giv ecities to the AI, the only difference would be that the AI would then 'die' and you would become the civs new master.

Slave revolts- slaves should be about strength 3 methinks, but after copper is developed could get bonuses against melee units. They are barbs and should get the normal barb penalty, but also their lack of training should mean they are easily beaten by trained soldiers. A large stack of warrior units that is trained shouldn't have much trouble beating them.

Once iron is developed some of them could be given swords. Also when horses are developed they should have some kind of weak horsemen unit.

Slaves could be altered so that the more slaves you have in your empire and the more you force labour in cities the more slaves you have to face in battle.

If you don't force labour or have any slaves the chance of revolt should be virually zero.

1 slave should be equivalent to 1 unhapiness in cities resulting from cruel opression.

Each slave unit/ unit of unhapiness should add a 0.15% chance of revolt in your empire. Slave revolted regularly in the American empire because America used more slaves than any other civ has in history (even more than the Romans). THeir economy depended on slaves running the plantations in the South.

Once the unhapiness from opression goes away so should the chance of revolt

Slaves should have half the maintaince cost of normal units because thy are not paid and in most cases are poorly fed or not at all. THere should be opertunities for slaves to be better cared for later on, and as a result their productivity and maintainance costs would rise. Also slaves should be low maint. for balancing issues. Slavery is supposed to benefit your economy, not crush its growth. The chance of revolution every turn should give some benits over just employing conventional workers.

Serfdom- Slave revolts could be calculated by considering two factors: civ population, city unhapiness and overall food productivity.

The percentage chance to win bar should also say how likely you are to capture the slaves once the battle is over.

Nukes- H bombs/ Abombs. Possibilty of developing H bombs after a fairly late tech. For each type of bomb a 'small' and 'large' bomb could be available. A large H bomb would be the best, but a small H bomb wouln't be as good as a large A bomb. In Japan a big bomb was used in Hirishima and 'little boy' was used in Nagasaki.

Stealth bombers- bunker buster bombs could be used to wipe out strategic targets, eg Iran's nuclear facilities lol. 'Cruise missiles' could have a smiliar effect of destroying particular buildings.

Chem weopons could start epidemics in a civ, but certain tech would reduce the effects of chem weopons. Eg their could be 'inoculations' tech and also bio warfare tech to reduce effects/ duration of epidemic.

Anaztazioch- I like the idea that Mercantiliam should reduce pandemic chances. Also the more merchans you have the higher the chance of pandemic methinks. In other words any foreign trade should increase pandemic chances. But a civ should eventually gain immunity from certain diseases, eg measels, cold, AIDS (lol sick but true. Look at African women they are less likely to get AIDS than western women because they have been exposed to AIDS in certain parts of Africa).

Like you say Walter MTW 2 cant be rellied upon for facts, but it gives useful info on where barb settlements should be on the world map and uses a realistic diplomacy system. Barb settlements in MTW and MTW2 do not all have walls early on.

Roman troops- Although not hist acurate yet i'm sure you'll have better luck when you rewrtite the tech tree.
 
Ok so Barb cities are easily taken on the world map without walls. But it needs to be taken into account that many barb setttlements did not have walls. A more realistic option would be to giv ebarb settlements more soldiers in setttlements, but weaker defences. Also certain Barb settlements could start off larger from the beginning of the game.

Possibility of making barbs into 'mini nations?' These nations would fit into their own diplomatic group. THere would be many mini- nations ideally. As you say barbs as one diplomatic entity would be unrealistic. With the adition of more civs in BTS maybe this issue will resolve itself, but there will be extra barb cities anyway and the increasing need for diplomatic organisation.

In response to the Issue of celts in Ireland Walter i'd like to say that their strongest settlements were in central france, andd so celt civ should be there, next to franks. As I said the Franks and celts would be surrounded bt barbs, and therefore would have to unite france/ Germany in conquest/ possibly in the future diplomacy. The situation within 'france' was hostile between tribes. You might even consider removing the Franks as a civ and making them a powerful barb city, leaving Brennus to unite 'France area', whilst being subject to pressure from Italy's troops. Franks could be an emergent civ if you add revolutions mod.

In response to your idea on weakening Mongol troops in desert Fachy, this would be unbalanced.

Walter RTR is a realistic mod, check it out if you haven't already :)
It gives excelent info on the roman army before and after marian period.

Antazioch marriage to families at other end of world wouldn't likely be possible . A clever AI would realise that maintainance costs would be high. The AI could be convinced that you were 'giving' it the cities. But AI won't accept cities which are too far away if you've ever tried to give cities like that. In other words it would be like an agreement where you giv ecities to the AI, the only difference would be that the AI would then 'die' and you would become the civs new master.

Slave revolts- slaves should be about strength 3 methinks, but after copper is developed could get bonuses against melee units. They are barbs and should get the normal barb penalty, but also their lack of training should mean they are easily beaten by trained soldiers. A large stack of warrior units that is trained shouldn't have much trouble beating them.

Once iron is developed some of them could be given swords. Also when horses are developed they should have some kind of weak horsemen unit.

Slaves could be altered so that the more slaves you have in your empire and the more you force labour in cities the more slaves you have to face in battle.

If you don't force labour or have any slaves the chance of revolt should be virually zero.

1 slave should be equivalent to 1 unhapiness in cities resulting from cruel opression.

Each slave unit/ unit of unhapiness should add a 0.15% chance of revolt in your empire. Slave revolted regularly in the American empire because America used more slaves than any other civ has in history (even more than the Romans). THeir economy depended on slaves running the plantations in the South.

Once the unhapiness from opression goes away so should the chance of revolt

Slaves should have half the maintaince cost of normal units because thy are not paid and in most cases are poorly fed or not at all. THere should be opertunities for slaves to be better cared for later on, and as a result their productivity and maintainance costs would rise. Also slaves should be low maint. for balancing issues. Slavery is supposed to benefit your economy, not crush its growth. The chance of revolution every turn should give some benits over just employing conventional workers.

Serfdom- Slave revolts could be calculated by considering two factors: civ population, city unhapiness and overall food productivity.

The percentage chance to win bar should also say how likely you are to capture the slaves once the battle is over.

Nukes- H bombs/ Abombs. Possibilty of developing H bombs after a fairly late tech. For each type of bomb a 'small' and 'large' bomb could be available. A large H bomb would be the best, but a small H bomb wouln't be as good as a large A bomb. In Japan a big bomb was used in Hirishima and 'little boy' was used in Nagasaki.

Stealth bombers- bunker buster bombs could be used to wipe out strategic targets, eg Iran's nuclear facilities lol. 'Cruise missiles' could have a smiliar effect of destroying particular buildings.

Chem weopons could start epidemics in a civ, but certain tech would reduce the effects of chem weopons. Eg their could be 'inoculations' tech and also bio warfare tech to reduce effects/ duration of epidemic.

Anaztazioch- I like the idea that Mercantiliam should reduce pandemic chances. Also the more merchans you have the higher the chance of pandemic methinks. In other words any foreign trade should increase pandemic chances. But a civ should eventually gain immunity from certain diseases, eg measels, cold, AIDS (lol sick but true. Look at African women they are less likely to get AIDS than western women because they have been exposed to AIDS in certain parts of Africa).

Like you say Walter MTW 2 cant be rellied upon for facts, but it gives useful info on where barb settlements should be on the world map and uses a realistic diplomacy system. Barb settlements in MTW and MTW2 do not all have walls early on.

Roman troops- Although not hist acurate yet i'm sure you'll have better luck when you rewrtite the tech tree.
 
@ Beastfeast:

Atomic Bombs used against Japan are ridiculously small compared to todays weapons. But they remain Nuclear Weapons and made huge damage to both the cities and -more important- their pop.

Today, most of the nuclear weapons developped by the four great owners (USA, Russia, UK and France) are really cities-smashers. India, Israel and China also have "good" nuclear weapons. Pakistan is the last country to recognize the possession of such a kind of weapon but theirs are less powerful.
What is sure is that all these 8 countries have A-Bombs and at least medium range Ballistic missiles. The four first countries have both H-Bombs and A-Bombs and real ICBM. Pakistan and India used less powerfull systems but it's enough as they are loocking at each others as "hte greatest foe to destroy".... Israel mostly use fighter/bomber as none of the Arabic countries is strong enough to fight them in the air. (Remember what happen to Arabic air forces in the great victory of Israel in 1967).

So, about the mod. Nothing will done for these weapons in the next release. Maybe, maybe, we will look at the Chemical Weapons.....

Hian the frog.
 
In response to your idea on weakening Mongol troops in desert Fachy, this would be unbalanced.

There is a question how they won their battles in desert ?

Malinese, Egyptians, Zulus, Arabian fought in desert lands, prottecting them. They were well equiped to "survive" and not loose strength from heat, also they had water supplies, some means to protect their eyes from sand storms etc.

Now what Mongolians did. I dont know to be honest, thats why its my ?first? post towards this concern. But if Mongol armies used their fast horses to attack enemies that were marching through desert (and weakened by heat etc., but thats not the point here) (in TR Keshik has 4 moves i think, and mobility promo, no penalty from terratin to move, so he can easilly get in desert, attack and leave desert in one turn! ). So here i say that their army is prepared for "short sighseeing" of desert, rather than slowelly walking on sand and making fortifications in "unfriendly" climate/terrain.
So giving them -x% DEFENCE in desert is logical (althou i say desert should give defence malus to everyone, and nomadic civs like Mali will have higher desert defence to "counter" desert title malus).

What im saying is to see "how" they won battles, not "if" they won it.
 
I just played games as England and Carthage and have to say they are a lot of fun. They are much more difficult than other civs. I love the pandemia system, though it sure makes life harder for the small civs. Very realistic. England should probably be given some happiness bonus. I worked around this by building the Pyramids and adopting Monarchy. I like that you closed off the new world to galleys.
I want to vote against weakening the Viking fleet. Who says history has to go the way it went? That is what I would not want in a “realistic” game.
That being said, perhaps military doctrines could help. I would like to see each national unit given one free "starter" promotion. Britain could have their national unit receive a free "Superior Seemanship" promotion.

Slavery has been implemented wonderfully. Walter is right that slave revolts were almost a constant fact in history. In fact, religions were (still are?) slave management systems (why it is right to serve the lord, or later, just serve). Caste system is there for anyone who does not like them, which seems perfect to me. Still, untouchables(those outside of the caste) were probably not exactly docile in light of their persecution. Regardless, slaves did not only revolt on their own accord. There is always some neighbor who benefits from seeing a disruption in your workforce. For this reason, I may have even found it more realistic to see them with real weapons as in 2.0. They were still "green" troops. Rome and Judea (habiru was a term used in the middle east denoting social outcasts of all sorts) were founded largely by runaway slaves and criminals.
The major flaw I find in the game is that offense and empire building are too easy. I see the inclusion of the revolutions mod as the best(most realistic) fix. I read a post that someone has added it to the mod? I’d like to try it, removing all barbarian civs (i.e. Mongols, Turks, Zulu, Viking), and perhaps others like Korea or France. Maybe the current civs could be divided, to create more. If a civ splits, one of its other (more modern) leaders could take control of the new state. I'm not even against civ resurrection. I want it to be very hard work to create an empire that spans anything more than four or five cities. Greece and Mongolia divided after the deaths of their leaders. Rome and China were miracles of peace on earth. They were as much cultural as military achievements. Britain depended on a huge military force, AND the work of missionaries / enlightenment philosophy, both of which enabled/justified the exploitation of native populations for the "betterment" of humanity.
 
If theres to be a neg modifier in desert it should be given to all civs, not just the mongols. It is important to keep the mod balanced and fair for all civs ( i think) whilst at the same time being as realistic as fairness will allow.;)

I have had an idea. Armies should become weaker the longer they are in the game. Units within team cultural boarders should weaken least. Units in neutral areas should lose troops (health) at a moderate rate, and troops in enemy territory should desert fastest. Also when units walk through hot/ cold places (ice/ desert) desertion should increase. THe desertion effect would be permanent within neutra and enemy boarders eg a warrior would reain on 1.7/1.7. However in friendly lands in one way or another troops could be rerecruted. In town and cities rerecruitment rates would be double. In villages it would be +25%. In hamlets +5% (negligable). The effect of the nationalist promotion would be changed. Units with that promotion would lose troops at half the rate. Desertion is a historically acurate idea and has hapened throughout history when men have feared for thier lives greatly or when they have lost their reason to fight. Also great military generals could slow the rate of desertion, but not stop it unless they have the relevent lvl 5 promotion. 1st gen promo= +10% strength or another combate related promo. 2nd promo= inspiring/ dreaded leader reduce desertion by 25% 3rd promo= inspiring/ dreaded leader 2- reduce desertion by 50%. Fourth promo= reduce by 75%. Fifth promo- remove desertion effects completely. (lvl 5 promotions can be given to a unit by seperating it from the rest of the army and spending all the promo points on 1 unit.)

This would emphasise the need for great military generals in Warlords, and it would be great fun to see your enemies armies dimininish. It would also mean that beseiged armies could sally forth against weakened armies in prolonged seiges. In other words all wars would have to be decisive and victory would have to come in a few short turns. It also supports the idea that in enemy boarders armies are less well maintained and supplied, their performance suffering dramatically as a result. Attacking would be more difficult but by no means impossible.

For my A level history I have been studying the great general Giuseppe Garibaldi, the man who helped to unite italy as a country through military leadership in 1870. Through his campaigns aginst the French and Austrians many of his men deserted him before battles because they lost thier will to fight and lose thier lives when nessecary.
 
Britain has never had a large army within Britain itself. Neither was our army particularly large in our colonies.

I have been attacked by powerful viking fleets long before BC time, whilst being boxed in by the Irish. THE IRISH FOR CHRISTS SAKES lol. Please, for the sake of reason and realism remove the celts civ from Ireland (replace them with a barbarian city called 'Tara') and increase the production cost of the Viking fleet. I have no objections to making them powerful, but please make them powerful later on. England wasn't invaded by the Vikings until 700 AD. I was attacked in about 600 BC if I recall correctly. Although my army won easily my fishing boats were all sank :( This was not fun at all. THe navy I build in retailiation was only strong enough to reppel the attacks by sheer fluke, and more ships would have ended my tiny fleet :(

Alternatively the Vikings could have to do more research in order to get more powerful ships.

Perhaps change seafarers doctrine to allow for 25% faster promotion and + 20% ship strength?
 
yes u r right about yavuz which makes total sense to me. you can also make a medieval age battle ship the famous KADIRGA. thanx for informing me

hi, tahnkout,
here is a screen of the the turkish battlecruiser "Sultan Yawus Selim" (ex german S.M.S. Goeben) as it would appear in TR 2.2.
I still cannot say if it would be used as battleship or as cruiser, because it is a battlecruiser, so something in the middle of battleship and cruiser.
it was larger than cruisers, but smaller than battleships... but because of the very strong and numerous guns, i think it would be better to use it as battleship...

This may be the only new ship for turks in TR 2.2, it was just a little gift from me to our turkish friends. there have still to be a big number of german, british, american, russian, japanese, italian and french ww1 and ww2 battleships, cruisers, destroyers and submarines, so turks (if we decide to do more of them) have to wait for a later release.

I hope I could make you "hot" to play the next release ;)

Allaha ısmarladık,
Charly
 

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