argh, nvm
Modding Speculation
- Thread starter Afforess
- Start date
Even if you are asked to reverse the digits in a 4 digit number, in a computer science class always aim for at least a bit harder than the problem asked, and do it more efficiently and elegantly than you need to.vsCode:digit2 = (value % 1000 - digit3 - digit4) / 100;
Why the extra step? Because, even though I'm used to C++ by now, I started with python. Which has dynamic variables. That digit2 int would become a float in Python, and with that, I'd need to remove the decimals.Code:digit2 = (value / 100) % 10;
Obviously, not the case in Java. Decimals are truncated in any int operations. Made my code look much better when I noticed my mistake.
You shouldn't have used variables called digit3. That means you wrote essentially the same code more than once -- you either manually typed it in twice, or used copy/paste. Both of these are very bad habits.
You should have written the "it does it for integers of any length" version. And made it pretty.
Math is hard. Possibly the math you have encountered is easy -- but Math? Math is hard.Affordess said:
Then again, I see you are running into proofs. You are starting to encounter harder math. The natural reaction might be "I don't want to do something hard", but you could get over it.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
Even if you are asked to reverse the digits in a 4 digit number, in a computer science class always aim for at least a bit harder than the problem asked, and do it more efficiently and elegantly than you need to.
You shouldn't have used variables called digit3. That means you wrote essentially the same code more than once -- you either manually typed it in twice, or used copy/paste. Both of these are very bad habits.
You should have written the "it does it for integers of any length" version. And made it pretty.
Math is hard. Possibly the math you have encountered is easy -- but Math? Math is hard.
Then again, I see you are running into proofs. You are starting to encounter harder math. The natural reaction might be "I don't want to do something hard", but you could get over it.
Yes, I would have done it that way. Had I been allowed to use the features it requires.
We were allowed to use what had been covered... Meaning defining variables, simple algebra, and if statements. Nothing more. I couldn't even append to a string, which would have eliminated all but one int.
I agree. It all depends on what level you get exposed to, just like in any subject.
Believe me Afforess, if/when one day you have to do proofs in foundations of logic (I wouldn't wish that horror upon anyone), pulling out hair would begin to look like an attractive passtime. It's like the difference between a course in first aid and a graduate degree in medicine.
RogerBacon
King
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2003
- Messages
- 649
I took math classes all the way up to Calculus III. The hardest thing for me to do in any math class was proofs in 9th grade Geometry. There was just something about them that didn't seem to snap in to place like all other math I encountered before or after.
EmperorFool
Deity
Jon mentioned an external "tuner" a couple times in the special PolyCast that sounded like it performed the same function as Civ4's WorldBuilder. Is this ModBuddy or a separate WB program?
Dale
Mohawk Games Developer
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2002
- Messages
- 7,846
EmperorFool
Deity
I'm taking the day off of work tomorrow. Not calling in sick--actually using a vacation day. If I don't I'll surely be up until 6am poking around the Lua source code after I've enjoyed my first game, and I don't want to be a zombie at work the next day.
How sad is that? Do I need professional help?
How sad is that? Do I need professional help?
SJSerio
Centurion
I'm taking the day off of work tomorrow. Not calling in sick--actually using a vacation day. If I don't I'll surely be up until 6am poking around the Lua source code after I've enjoyed my first game, and I don't want to be a zombie at work the next day.
How sad is that? Do I need professional help?
I had put in for vacation starting on Wednesday (I didn't know that I would be able to preload) through the rest of the week over a month ago. I think I might be sadder!
I will be digging around, there is a lot of stuff that hasn't been shown yet
ohhh. time for Chuck... gotta go!
I like calculus - it's a very scientific side of mathematics - but IMHO things like Analysis and Foundations of Logic (try Godel's theorems
for example) are harder to get one's head around and lean more towards theorem-proving. If you find that stuff easier than 9th grade geometry I envy you. 
xienwolf
Deity
I realize I am a few pages late to the debate, but here are my thoughts (still only on page 2 or so of the entire discussion)
You are making an assumption that the company has unlimited resources and the workers for them have unlimited time. There are a LOT of things in any development process which are scrapped because time runs out before they can be implemented. This kind of an editor would be top on the axe list for almost anyone who has to choose.
The main issue with a full GUI based XML modding tool is for those of us who add new fields to the XML, now we also have to re-arrange and edit the GUI, so not only do they have to make a GUI for XML modding, but they have to make sure that the GUI itself is moddable (should there be a GUI interface to mod the GUI interface? Hrm... recursive).
This need to mod a modding tool means that it causes MORE work, which defeats the entire purpose of the tool (a timesaving device).
Yes, Access would quite easily set up to do all of the XML modification bits, and would even adapt to new fields fairly fast if you set things up properly. But Access isn't exactly free, nor is it easy to write a "mini-Access" of your own (if it were easy to write, it would be free).
You are making an assumption that the company has unlimited resources and the workers for them have unlimited time. There are a LOT of things in any development process which are scrapped because time runs out before they can be implemented. This kind of an editor would be top on the axe list for almost anyone who has to choose.
The main issue with a full GUI based XML modding tool is for those of us who add new fields to the XML, now we also have to re-arrange and edit the GUI, so not only do they have to make a GUI for XML modding, but they have to make sure that the GUI itself is moddable (should there be a GUI interface to mod the GUI interface? Hrm... recursive).
This need to mod a modding tool means that it causes MORE work, which defeats the entire purpose of the tool (a timesaving device).
Yes, Access would quite easily set up to do all of the XML modification bits, and would even adapt to new fields fairly fast if you set things up properly. But Access isn't exactly free, nor is it easy to write a "mini-Access" of your own (if it were easy to write, it would be free).
xienwolf
Deity
Ok, read the entire post now, sadly the main debate all seems to have been pre-release, but I'll post anyway, cause I wrote it and all
Honestly, giving you a rock to smash your computer with would ALSO be an unprecedented modding tool. Certainly nobody has offered that choice yet...
Remember that marketing writes the things you see, and programmers write the things you use. Marketing tends not to understand programmers very well, so they use "fluff" words like "Unprecedented"
You are underestimating the weaknesses of a GUI.
If I want to increase the movement of all units by 2, I can use Find/Replace tool in Notepad++ and be done in 12 button clicks. If I want to do that with a GUI, I must go to each and every unit individually and increment their move scores. Thus the GUI made me take longer.
Also, if we HAD a GUI, then far fewer people would have ever thought to add new tags to the game. They would have seen what was there in the GUI, and accepted that as all that can be done. Why do I say this: Because the way I started in on modding was by translating one of the tags in one XML file incorrectly and thinking I could do something which I couldn't, so wanting more. And again by seeing an XML entry in a file which I wanted to work in a different file, and trying to just pop it over (obviously it failed, but trying to fix it made me a modder). With a GUI, neither of those would have happened.
Also, unprecedented is no the same as comprehensive. As long as they provide at least 2 tools, even if that barely scratches the surface of moddability (let's say a reskinner that only works on terrain, and an editor that can only modify diplomacy text), that satisfies "tools" pluraltiy. Such a scenario would make a game which is not really moddable, but could still claim "unprecedented modding tools."
I am sorry, but having XML files available to you IS a tool. They could have left all data hardcoded in the EXE like most games do, and we would have been unable to mod anything. The MONTHS of work required to move from hardcoded data to moddable datafiles was an incredible move (granted, that wasn't Civ 5, but far earlier). Giving us XML was giving us a tool.
Python/LUA and the SDK don't care if XML exists. So see above about having XML available being the most remarkable tool they can provide. Same applies for having LUA available. And they moved a LOT of things that were in the SDK or even .exe in Civ 4 out into LUA for Civ 5, which means MANY more modders can do a LOT more.
I'll quote you as having probably the most reasonable post in this thread (which pertains to the major debate). Quite an accurate outlook I imagine.
If someone has a chance of becoming "The next great modder" they need to move well beyond a GUI. Yes, we can get floaters and lifejackets and stay in the 3 foot section or never even leave the kiddie pool, but that won't have us in the Olympic games anytime soon. Getting tossed into the 10 foot section of the pool with lifeguards on duty (forums to ask questions) on the other hand WILL ensure that you learn how to swim, or sit at the coffee shop and clear water out of your lungs for a while before you try again.
Started with an Apple //e myself, no idea what the language actually was. I just remember the great moment when I learned instead of writing on lines 1,2,3,4 you could write on lines 10,20,30,40 and then have room to go back and add lines between your earlier work!
On the far more interesting topic of Ender Wiggins: How many of you have read the follow-up series which follows Bean? Absolutely awesome to revisit a story 30 years later and write from another perspective.
And Ye 'ole Gods... you people complaining about Math... Geez. I won't mention what I study and my thoughts on the subject I suppose, other than to say that you are CONSTANTLY doing math every moment of your life. It was the first bloody thing you did after the doc spanked you
Honestly, giving you a rock to smash your computer with would ALSO be an unprecedented modding tool. Certainly nobody has offered that choice yet...
Remember that marketing writes the things you see, and programmers write the things you use. Marketing tends not to understand programmers very well, so they use "fluff" words like "Unprecedented"
You are underestimating the weaknesses of a GUI.
If I want to increase the movement of all units by 2, I can use Find/Replace tool in Notepad++ and be done in 12 button clicks. If I want to do that with a GUI, I must go to each and every unit individually and increment their move scores. Thus the GUI made me take longer.
Also, if we HAD a GUI, then far fewer people would have ever thought to add new tags to the game. They would have seen what was there in the GUI, and accepted that as all that can be done. Why do I say this: Because the way I started in on modding was by translating one of the tags in one XML file incorrectly and thinking I could do something which I couldn't, so wanting more. And again by seeing an XML entry in a file which I wanted to work in a different file, and trying to just pop it over (obviously it failed, but trying to fix it made me a modder). With a GUI, neither of those would have happened.
Also, unprecedented is no the same as comprehensive. As long as they provide at least 2 tools, even if that barely scratches the surface of moddability (let's say a reskinner that only works on terrain, and an editor that can only modify diplomacy text), that satisfies "tools" pluraltiy. Such a scenario would make a game which is not really moddable, but could still claim "unprecedented modding tools."
I am sorry, but having XML files available to you IS a tool. They could have left all data hardcoded in the EXE like most games do, and we would have been unable to mod anything. The MONTHS of work required to move from hardcoded data to moddable datafiles was an incredible move (granted, that wasn't Civ 5, but far earlier). Giving us XML was giving us a tool.
Python/LUA and the SDK don't care if XML exists. So see above about having XML available being the most remarkable tool they can provide. Same applies for having LUA available. And they moved a LOT of things that were in the SDK or even .exe in Civ 4 out into LUA for Civ 5, which means MANY more modders can do a LOT more.
Thorburne, you can argue with the programmers all you want, and I see some of the points you're making as valid.. programmers just won't give it, though
However, you're missing the main point, and that's why I quote you above: the market. The shiny leaders are NOT for the reviewers; they're for the CivRev kind of gamer.
There are two main powerful types of customers 2k wants to please: 'normal' gamers (i.e. non-fanatic, as we are too little compared to the broader strategy market) and serious modders. The first are where the profits are, and the second create cool new 'games' for the first to play even more. That's what they're getting at with the in-game browser. A mod like FfH inside such a tool has the power to make casual gamers draw their friends into buying Civ for playing such mods, down the line, extending their sales beyond their concentrated efforts.
Shiny leaders cater to the former, unprecedented modding tools catter to the latter. It has been noted more than once that modding Civ5 will take more technical skills than modding Civ4. Sorry, but making modding more casual is not as much in their plans as making modding consumption more casual. That's what unprecedented are all about. Good mods will always come from just a few dozen individuals, and those will always be there no matter how hard it is to mod. If that pays off with being able to create deeper mods, all the better.
Casual modders are not at all an interesting market for them. They end up more often than not being the only ones playing their mods.
I understand yours and others' drive to to call attention to the needs of the kind of customer that you are, but Firaxis/2k is after profit behind every decision they make, such is the way the carousel spins.
I'll quote you as having probably the most reasonable post in this thread (which pertains to the major debate). Quite an accurate outlook I imagine.
If someone has a chance of becoming "The next great modder" they need to move well beyond a GUI. Yes, we can get floaters and lifejackets and stay in the 3 foot section or never even leave the kiddie pool, but that won't have us in the Olympic games anytime soon. Getting tossed into the 10 foot section of the pool with lifeguards on duty (forums to ask questions) on the other hand WILL ensure that you learn how to swim, or sit at the coffee shop and clear water out of your lungs for a while before you try again.
Started with an Apple //e myself, no idea what the language actually was. I just remember the great moment when I learned instead of writing on lines 1,2,3,4 you could write on lines 10,20,30,40 and then have room to go back and add lines between your earlier work!
On the far more interesting topic of Ender Wiggins: How many of you have read the follow-up series which follows Bean? Absolutely awesome to revisit a story 30 years later and write from another perspective.
And Ye 'ole Gods... you people complaining about Math... Geez.
I won't mention what I study and my thoughts on the subject I suppose, other than to say that you are CONSTANTLY doing math every moment of your life. It was the first bloody thing you did after the doc spanked you
EmperorFool
Deity
Yup, that's AppleSoft BASIC where I got my start. A few years later someone created an actual text editor where you could select a range of line numbers and shift or spread them with one command. Brilliant!
Yes! Those were my favorite after the first book. I read the rest of the series over the years after my girlfriend in college introduced me to Ender's Game. He came out with one last year or the year before that I recently read on my Kindle. Great story that follows Ender and Valerie going off to the first colony immediately after the war. It's worth a read for sure.
Thanks
That was cool that my post yielded something far beyond my concentrated efforts.. to quote the quote you quoted.And on math.. why sure, but proofs? Those are just nasty!
that's not a good idea. There are already people complaining in the tech support, when they by accident modified some original XML files. Guess what will happen here.No, seriously, i laughed
.
SJSerio
Centurion
Well, this discussion is old and most of us have moved past it... for now. I still stand by my statements, but at this point I am just looking forward to seeing what they have to offer in the way of modding tools and go from there. Hopefully, they will aide quite a bit for those of us that don't have a nuclear programming science degree.
As far as it goes, it does not take a whole lot of resources to create the necessary tools to supplement the game as long as proper planning is involved. Now, if they waited until the last three months before release and than said "hey, we need to make some modding tools!", then, yeah, they will surely run into a bit of a problem. But, as long as they have been planning from the beginning and making the tools alongside the game, the costs will be relatively minimal. Since they have been touting the "unprecedented modding tools" since the announcement, I think that it is fairly likely that they HAVE been planning since the beginning (or very close to) of the game's development.
That all said, in reference to your quote there, my point was that the next great game designer may be interested in getting started at this point, but could be put off by the daunting code required to learn. That code may be easy to those who have spent the greater part of there life learning it, but for the rest of us, it is not such a breeze. In my case, I think I may have a mild form of dislexia (sp?) which makes things all the worse trying to sort through the code which is probably why I failed at teaching myself C++. But the thing is, you don't need to be a programmer in order to be a designer. In fact, the two aren't even related. Sure, it helps if the designer has at least a little knowledge of programming, but for that matter, the same with other aspects of game development (art, music, etc).
Now, at this point, I just want the WB so that I can get cracking on those maps!
For someone who isn't able to understand the level of configuration details in XML, nor is able to build a GUI themselves, you sure have lots of confidence in what kinds of problems are easy and what are hard. You also appear not to have spent time working on a computer software release schedule and resource allocation.
I call it false confidence. Your claims are groundless -- they are grounded in your opinion, which isn't an educated one. Your beliefs are wishful thinking.
GUI tools that make Civ5 marginally easier to work with could be written, but they would be a non-trivial task. Odds are you are used to polished GUIs intended for multiple-million user consumption purposes: be they drawing programs, office suites, or the like. And you have the idea that that level of polish and easy to use must be easy -- it isn't. It is the result of decades of technique refinement and often billions of dollars in development work in some cases. And even then, the average commercial office suite is less effective than freeware command-line non-GUI tools at doing their main job, in the hands of a competent user (compare TeX typesetting to writing a book in word -- one is doable, the other is utterly impractical).
The level of "easy GUI writing" would suck -- it would barely pass "set the axemans strength to 6 instead of 5". Each step beyond that would either require a change to the game's engine, a lockdown on how the game behaves, or other headaches. Writing data-validators that make sure the data you create in whatever tool you use won't crash civ5 would be a monumental task and could easily have a multiplicative impact on the total cost of the game to "do right".
What we are given in civ5 is a combination of the tools that the professional game designers at firaxis used to create the game (yes, professional game designers edit XML - editing XML is far easier than programming, and you do not need to be a programmer in order to edit XML) -- lua, for light-programming of UI and business logic, a C++ driven binary engine for the heavy lifting, and XML files for designers to tweak game parameters without having to touch code.
They then wrapped it up in a mod delivery and packaging system.
Note that much of the work to make the game modable is what they internally use. So the work is "free" for our consumption. (the civ series started being modable accidentally, as the game programmers found it easier to build data-driven engines instead of putting all of the game mechanics in hard code).
Of course, I doubt I'll get through to you. Wishful thinking is hard to defeat.
I call it false confidence. Your claims are groundless -- they are grounded in your opinion, which isn't an educated one. Your beliefs are wishful thinking.
GUI tools that make Civ5 marginally easier to work with could be written, but they would be a non-trivial task. Odds are you are used to polished GUIs intended for multiple-million user consumption purposes: be they drawing programs, office suites, or the like. And you have the idea that that level of polish and easy to use must be easy -- it isn't. It is the result of decades of technique refinement and often billions of dollars in development work in some cases. And even then, the average commercial office suite is less effective than freeware command-line non-GUI tools at doing their main job, in the hands of a competent user (compare TeX typesetting to writing a book in word -- one is doable, the other is utterly impractical).
The level of "easy GUI writing" would suck -- it would barely pass "set the axemans strength to 6 instead of 5". Each step beyond that would either require a change to the game's engine, a lockdown on how the game behaves, or other headaches. Writing data-validators that make sure the data you create in whatever tool you use won't crash civ5 would be a monumental task and could easily have a multiplicative impact on the total cost of the game to "do right".
What we are given in civ5 is a combination of the tools that the professional game designers at firaxis used to create the game (yes, professional game designers edit XML - editing XML is far easier than programming, and you do not need to be a programmer in order to edit XML) -- lua, for light-programming of UI and business logic, a C++ driven binary engine for the heavy lifting, and XML files for designers to tweak game parameters without having to touch code.
They then wrapped it up in a mod delivery and packaging system.
Note that much of the work to make the game modable is what they internally use. So the work is "free" for our consumption. (the civ series started being modable accidentally, as the game programmers found it easier to build data-driven engines instead of putting all of the game mechanics in hard code).
Of course, I doubt I'll get through to you. Wishful thinking is hard to defeat.
SJSerio
Centurion
You are right... I am too stubborn to drop my feelings and beliefs without very solid proof to the contrary. Of course, I could say the same thing about you (and everybody else that seems to think that a GUI editor is so difficult/would break modding/etc. The bottom line is I am tired of this argument right now and just want to move on (for now). I am sure that this discussion will come up again in the future, whether it is me, somebody else from this thread, or somebody new that brings it up.
FYI, I am not as computer illiterate as many seem to think. While I do not have a computer science degree (or anything), but I have a basic understanding of programming, I can figure out the XML files to an extent and have a pretty good sense of how it all comes together. Yes, editing XML is easier than programming, but that doesn't make it easy. One of the points that I am trying to get across (which everybody that counters my argument fails to see) is that for non-programmers, XML can be like reading Greek with a German dictionary as reference. Not to mention that making even a small edit could cause you to have to make several other small edits through various files that may not be immediately obvious.
croxis
Chat room op
Summery of thread:
People with various levels of experience in programming: "Making a GUI is a lot of work and is not faster."
People with little experience in programming: "LIER!"
Proof 1: I have played with the modding of Civ 2, 3, and 4. I had one class in HS on C++ (We just got to classes and objects by the end of the year) and one class in HTML when Civ IV came out. Civ II had a number of complicated mods, especially with the event scripting in the expansions. Fantastic Worlds came with some editors, but they were clunky and somewhat buggy. Here is a line from rules.txt for a unit:
This is a custom syntax. At the top is a key but when faced with a wall of this and new to it, it can be a bit daunting.
Civilization III offered much improved modding utilities. Editing and units were easy! Civs can be made! Then where were all the Fall From Heavens and Rise of Mankinds and Rhys and Falls? There were none. Because while the editors lowered the barrier for entry the data was locked to what was accessible through the editors. While new things could be created, nothing new could be. Civ 2, while rudimentary, new game mechanics can be made using the event script. In order to preserve the end user experience for the editors such things could not be allowed for Civ 3. In the end Civ 3 was a regression in moddability from Civ 2.
Civ IV we all know. It used formal, existing, and well defined standards of XML and Python in addition to some source code! Here is Civ 4 syntax for the warrior:
Much more verbose, but a lot more options! If Civ 2 syntax was used it would be a lot more cumbersome! XML is far more human readable. But as mentioned an editor would need to display all of these, and the editor would need to be coded to handle new tags as well -- otherwise you can't mod a big mod.
Proof 2:
Firaxis is a company out to make a profit. They are going to find, build, and make tools to optimize developer time. This is why they licence the Gamebro graphics engine in Civ 4, it was less expensive to licence that graphics engine than to create one from scratch in house. If an XML and Python/Lua editor is relatively trivial to make and such a time saver they would develop one.
So why didn't they? Two possible options. 1) They made a bad business decision by not improving their development tools. 2) A GUI is not cost effective for time to code it and/or any time saved using it.
It must be #1, right, right?
In fact, doing a little google searching, I'm not finding very many graphical xml editors. And why did the Civ IV XML editor not get very far? Making a robust enough editor is easy to do! Right?
right?
People with various levels of experience in programming: "Making a GUI is a lot of work and is not faster."
People with little experience in programming: "LIER!"
Proof 1: I have played with the modding of Civ 2, 3, and 4. I had one class in HS on C++ (We just got to classes and objects by the end of the year) and one class in HTML when Civ IV came out. Civ II had a number of complicated mods, especially with the event scripting in the expansions. Fantastic Worlds came with some editors, but they were clunky and somewhat buggy. Here is a line from rules.txt for a unit:
Code:
Warriors, Bro, 0, 1.,0, 1a,1d, 1h,1f, 1,0, 1, nil, 000000000000000Civilization III offered much improved modding utilities. Editing and units were easy! Civs can be made! Then where were all the Fall From Heavens and Rise of Mankinds and Rhys and Falls? There were none. Because while the editors lowered the barrier for entry the data was locked to what was accessible through the editors. While new things could be created, nothing new could be. Civ 2, while rudimentary, new game mechanics can be made using the event script. In order to preserve the end user experience for the editors such things could not be allowed for Civ 3. In the end Civ 3 was a regression in moddability from Civ 2.
Civ IV we all know. It used formal, existing, and well defined standards of XML and Python in addition to some source code! Here is Civ 4 syntax for the warrior:
Code:
<UnitInfo>
<Class>UNITCLASS_WARRIOR</Class>
<Type>UNIT_WARRIOR</Type>
<UniqueNames/>
<Special>NONE</Special>
<Capture>NONE</Capture>
<Combat>UNITCOMBAT_MELEE</Combat>
<Domain>DOMAIN_LAND</Domain>
<DefaultUnitAI>UNITAI_ATTACK</DefaultUnitAI>
<Invisible>NONE</Invisible>
<SeeInvisible>NONE</SeeInvisible>
<Description>TXT_KEY_UNIT_WARRIOR</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_UNIT_WARRIOR_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<Strategy>TXT_KEY_UNIT_WARRIOR_STRATEGY</Strategy>
<Advisor>ADVISOR_MILITARY</Advisor>
<bAnimal>0</bAnimal>
<bFood>0</bFood>
<bNoBadGoodies>0</bNoBadGoodies>
<bOnlyDefensive>0</bOnlyDefensive>
<bNoCapture>0</bNoCapture>
<bRivalTerritory>0</bRivalTerritory>
<bMilitaryHappiness>1</bMilitaryHappiness>
<bMilitarySupport>1</bMilitarySupport>
<bMilitaryProduction>1</bMilitaryProduction>
<bPillage>1</bPillage>
<snip>...
<FreePromotions/>
</UnitInfo>Much more verbose, but a lot more options! If Civ 2 syntax was used it would be a lot more cumbersome! XML is far more human readable. But as mentioned an editor would need to display all of these, and the editor would need to be coded to handle new tags as well -- otherwise you can't mod a big mod.
Proof 2:
Firaxis is a company out to make a profit. They are going to find, build, and make tools to optimize developer time. This is why they licence the Gamebro graphics engine in Civ 4, it was less expensive to licence that graphics engine than to create one from scratch in house. If an XML and Python/Lua editor is relatively trivial to make and such a time saver they would develop one.
So why didn't they? Two possible options. 1) They made a bad business decision by not improving their development tools. 2) A GUI is not cost effective for time to code it and/or any time saved using it.
It must be #1, right, right?
In fact, doing a little google searching, I'm not finding very many graphical xml editors. And why did the Civ IV XML editor not get very far? Making a robust enough editor is easy to do! Right?
right?
SJSerio
Centurion
First of all, CIV III (Which did have quite a bit of advance mods, as I remember) did not have one of the key elements made available for those advance mods... the SDK. Before CIV IV's SDK was released, their weren't a whole lot of truly advanced mods available. There were some, but not very many. The fact that CIV III had a GUI-based editor and CIV IV didn't is irrelevant and comparing the two is comparing apples to oranges. At the time of CIV II, modding was regulated to a relatively elite few. Most gamers didn't even care or have an idea about modding.
To put it frankly, a GUI-based editor does not limit the ability for the more advance people to make more advanced mods. If that was the case, then something like THIS would not be possible. For both RPGM VX and RPGM XP... it is relatively easy for non-programmers to create their own games (only limitations being time, patience and creativity) while it still has the advance features and scripting which allows advanced modders to create games far beyond what it was intended for.
As far as your "proof 2", well, I don't really see an argument there. You say that they are a business and licensed a game engine for Civ IV... fine, but they develoed CIV V from the ground up. Which would mean that they made the tools that they use to make the game. As far as what they made or didn't made... we still have to find out.
Why didn't any CIV IV editors get completed? Simple... because it was left on the backs of the generous modders who were sacrifising time from making their own mods (and not getting paid to do so) who didn't have all of the resources that the game developers had.
I think that this is going to be my last response to this argument... for now. As I have stated, it is a tired argument and I am just trying to move on at this point. Maybe after they release the tools for CIV V, I will revisit the argument... but for now, can we all just move on?
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