Modding Speculation

[Valkrionn]

OK... I was reading through the manual and it looks like you guys may have won as far as what will be released. I still stand by my points that I have stated before. But let the argument end here (perhaps to be revisited at a future time).

Like I'd said when I linked the manual... Check the credits. The Franky Testers are pretty much exclusively modders.

Including much of my own mod team. Which, btw, would be the reason our releases have been so dismally slow Afforess. Remember you commenting on that.

I have a couple other concerns and comments from what I have read in the manual. Again, I am not looking to start another flame war, I just want to express my concerns and try and get some clarification on a few things. In the manual, it states:

Yes, but we aren't really supposed to discuss it. However, Dale made a blog post about it nono, so you can find more here: http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/entry.php?15-Dale-s-Mod-Blog-Civ5-Modding-Explained

First off, does anybody know more details about this? I am assuming that the World Builder SDK is the tool that we read about a week or so ago. I am curious as to why it has SDK in the title. Second, does anybody know any specifics that I may have missed about ModBuddy? Does anyone know exactly what it is and what it does... is it just the packager, or could it be what I have been hoping for? I am looking specifically at the line:

Well, they are using 'World Builder SDK' to describe the whole thing, whereas World Builder is just one component of that. SDK means Software Development Kit.

Seeing as Dale already blew much of it out of the water... ModBuddy will be what you use to play with XML and Lua, as well as building your mods. It is based on Visual Studio, so it's quite easy to use. However, it is text-based. All those points in my arguments where I said "I would like it if it did this"? Yeah, pay attention to those.

Specifically the scenario part and change minute behavior of the Game's AI are of interest to me. It just seems to me that making scenarios and changing a game's AI (even small changes) are a bit more involved and would normally require going into the XML files. I guess we'll see...

Yep. Can modify them, as has been said.

And that leads me to the third thing, and perhaps my biggest concern...



This makes me a little worried. It means that we won't have access to these things on day one! While I can understand and let it slide if the developers just have in mind letting us play the game first and get used to the mechanics before delving deep into it, but as long as it is not too long of a wait. The question is exactly what is "shortly after release"? I have seen this promise made before and shortly turned into quite a long time.

When EA released The Sims 3, they stated that the Create-a-World (the tool which allows the user to create full neighborhoods) would follow the game shortly... and that shortly turned into nearly a year. I really hope that this is not the case with these tools, especially since we have already seen the screenshots and, from what I could tell, at least, the World Builder appears to be fully functional. I would say that it should not be more than a couple weeks at most.

Anyway, that is just my thoughts!

There is still work being done (Shaun Seckman is pretty much the only guy working on the modding tools), but IIRC they will be available quite soon after release. The versions we have are in a VERY usable state, at least.

The SDK (C++) will not be available immediately, as with Civ4; Needs to be cleaned up, and Shaun has some things he wants to do.

Man. Hope Dale does not get in trouble for that blog post, because if he does than I'm in trouble too at this point.

Oh, BTW... you all make me feel old! Excluding Dale, who is likely older than me (unless he was programming in BASIC on the Commodore when he was 5 years old... our real life Ender Wiggins, maybe), the closest of the three of you to me in age is Valkrionn... who is 10 years my younger! It is no wonder why you all find programming and XML editing easy as pie... You are all still young enough to have no big obligations or responsibilities (like family and tons of bills) that would hinder your ability to persuit such learning and are at the stage in your lives where you are just absorbing things like a sponge the middle of a lake.

Dang whippersnappers!

Dale your post today on modding has me completely blown away! Wow, now I'm terribly excited to get started on it.. looking forward to your tutorials after launch as well

It's excellent. But I'll let Dale write the tutorials, he's far better at it than I am.

I'm not sure if my team's mod will be achievable without the SDK (pretty sure it won't be), so I'm planning to start work on a smaller, personal mod.

 

[Szpilman]

I'll probably start working on the UI and whatever is best fit for Lua. Since it'll be just me to start my mod off, and since I'll be learning along the way, I should have plenty to do before the SDK comes out (I'll admit I'm actually glad it's not coming now as I'd be overwhelmed).

 

[Afforess]

Like I'd said when I linked the manual... Check the credits. The Franky Testers are pretty much exclusively modders.

Including much of my own mod team. Which, btw, would be the reason our releases have been so dismally slow Afforess. Remember you commenting on that.

I'm jealous - but at the same time, If I would have been a tester, that means a lot of key AND features would have never been made.

(Okay, so I'm just rationalizing away my jealousy.)

 

[Valkrionn]

Yeah, it delayed alot of our plans... But I would not trade it for anything. Been fun.

And that testing evidently does not end now, btw.

 

[EmperorFool]

And that testing evidently does not end now, btw.

Suckers! I'm gonna be playing Civ5 on the 21st.

Off to read Dale's blog post . . . .

 

[Afforess]

Suckers! I'm gonna be playing Civ5 on the 21st.

Off to read Dale's blog post . . . .

Dale's post was rather short on specifics...

Anyway, my last class on the 21st ends at 12:15 PM, and Civ5 unlocks at 12PM. So I will be playing pretty much from the start.

 

[Szpilman]

Suckers! I'm gonna be playing Civ5 on the 21st.

Off to read Dale's blog post . . . .

And then 2 hours later you'll start working on a mod. And then you'll be testing again happily ever after.

 

[EmperorFool]

Dale's post was rather short on specifics...

NDA's are a double-edged sword to be sure.

And then 2 hours later you'll start working on a mod. And then you'll be testing again happily ever after.

So true.

 

[Valkrionn]

Suckers! I'm gonna be playing Civ5 on the 21st.

Off to read Dale's blog post . . . .

I have the modding tools installed on my computer.

I am still just playing the game.

Dale's post was rather short on specifics...

Anyway, my last class on the 21st ends at 12:15 PM, and Civ5 unlocks at 12PM. So I will be playing pretty much from the start.

What specifics are needed?

NDA's are a double-edged sword to be sure.



So true.

Yes... yes they are.

 

[Pouakai]

And that leads me to the third thing, and perhaps my biggest concern...

Coming shortly after release...

This makes me a little worried. It means that we won't have access to these things on day one! While I can understand and let it slide if the developers just have in mind letting us play the game first and get used to the mechanics before delving deep into it, but as long as it is not too long of a wait. The question is exactly what is "shortly after release"? I have seen this promise made before and shortly turned into quite a long time.

I would take shortly after the release to be after the US release date, possibly the saturday after the international release date.

 

[EmperorFool]

I am still just playing the game.

I soooooo didn't need to hear that! j/k

What specifics are needed?

Well, you asked so...

1. Can you package your own XML files (a la BUG's config files) and access them within the packaged mod? Does CvPath.py truly disappear forever? That'd be great!
2. Can you build a mod from several other mod components and repackage it? Sure, for things that work seemlessly (XML), there's not much need. However BUG integrates a lot of Python mods that simply could not work together without rewriting their code, even slightly, because they modify the same Python (Lua in Civ5) file.
3. In the game can you create "sets" of mods so you don't have to disable and enable mods constantly? For example, if FfH comes out for Civ5 I imagine it will be just as comprehensive and not work with a bunch of mods. They can't all have each other in the excludes, so it will require the user to disable ten mods before enabling FfH.
4. Much of what I thought made BUG so helpful to other modders is allowing them to easily merge mods that would normally require modifying Python files without doing so. By externalizing event handlers and game utils callbacks you could merge two mods that added both without modifying either mod. Will this be possible or should I start on the Lua version?
5. How do classes work in Lua? It's up to the coder to implement them using tables, and I've read of five or so ways to do it. How has Firaxis chosen to do it? Can you create an example without breaking the NDA that shows their method--not their exact code?
6. Does the Lua library that comes with Civ5 include an XML parser? What about networking? I expect we can include our own Lua libraries if they are entirely in Lua, but it would be better if Firaxis included a solid C-based XML parser with a Lua API for us.

How's that for a start?

 

[Dale]

Yes, but we aren't really supposed to discuss it. However, Dale made a blog post about it nono, so you can find more here: http://www.weplayciv.com/forums/entry.php?15-Dale-s-Mod-Blog-Civ5-Modding-Explained

Actually, everything I posted about has been referenced or implied in many previews and interviews. As I said in the blog, it's so spread out no one is getting the big picture. I just put it all in one spot.

I think the only thing I blew is a couple of the tool's names.

 

[Valkrionn]

I soooooo didn't need to hear that! j/k



Well, you asked so...

1. Can you package your own XML files (a la BUG's config files) and access them within the packaged mod? Does CvPath.py truly disappear forever? That'd be great!
2. Can you build a mod from several other mod components and repackage it? Sure, for things that work seemlessly (XML), there's not much need. However BUG integrates a lot of Python mods that simply could not work together without rewriting their code, even slightly, because they modify the same Python (Lua in Civ5) file.
3. In the game can you create "sets" of mods so you don't have to disable and enable mods constantly? For example, if FfH comes out for Civ5 I imagine it will be just as comprehensive and not work with a bunch of mods. They can't all have each other in the excludes, so it will require the user to disable ten mods before enabling FfH.
4. Much of what I thought made BUG so helpful to other modders is allowing them to easily merge mods that would normally require modifying Python files without doing so. By externalizing event handlers and game utils callbacks you could merge two mods that added both without modifying either mod. Will this be possible or should I start on the Lua version?
5. How do classes work in Lua? It's up to the coder to implement them using tables, and I've read of five or so ways to do it. How has Firaxis chosen to do it? Can you create an example without breaking the NDA that shows their method--not their exact code?
6. Does the Lua library that comes with Civ5 include an XML parser? What about networking? I expect we can include our own Lua libraries if they are entirely in Lua, but it would be better if Firaxis included a solid C-based XML parser with a Lua API for us.

How's that for a start?

Now, which of those do you think we can answer? Technically, not even Dale's blog should have happened as far as I'm aware.

However... I'll say a few things that were already revealed, mostly. Firstly, mods all appear to be fully modular; I have yet to see an example that would not work with others (excluding DLL mods, which are not possible yet anyway). Second, you will have a high degree of control of what can be activated with your mod. You can even set it to exclude all others, aside from those that rely on your mod (as in, FfH could exclude all of them, but RifE, if set to require FfH, would bypass that).

Really though, many of your questions are about the specifics of the code, not the tools, and I can't answer them yet. As I said, I've done no more than take a cursory glance, haven't started modding. Though that itch is growing.

Need to get started on my Nantucket mod...

 

[Dale]

I soooooo didn't need to hear that! j/k



Well, you asked so...

1. Can you package your own XML files (a la BUG's config files) and access them within the packaged mod? Does CvPath.py truly disappear forever? That'd be great!
2. Can you build a mod from several other mod components and repackage it? Sure, for things that work seemlessly (XML), there's not much need. However BUG integrates a lot of Python mods that simply could not work together without rewriting their code, even slightly, because they modify the same Python (Lua in Civ5) file.
3. In the game can you create "sets" of mods so you don't have to disable and enable mods constantly? For example, if FfH comes out for Civ5 I imagine it will be just as comprehensive and not work with a bunch of mods. They can't all have each other in the excludes, so it will require the user to disable ten mods before enabling FfH.
4. Much of what I thought made BUG so helpful to other modders is allowing them to easily merge mods that would normally require modifying Python files without doing so. By externalizing event handlers and game utils callbacks you could merge two mods that added both without modifying either mod. Will this be possible or should I start on the Lua version?
5. How do classes work in Lua? It's up to the coder to implement them using tables, and I've read of five or so ways to do it. How has Firaxis chosen to do it? Can you create an example without breaking the NDA that shows their method--not their exact code?
6. Does the Lua library that comes with Civ5 include an XML parser? What about networking? I expect we can include our own Lua libraries if they are entirely in Lua, but it would be better if Firaxis included a solid C-based XML parser with a Lua API for us.

How's that for a start?

Okay here are the answers......

2K legal has removed this post.

 

[Valkrionn]

Actually, everything I posted about has been referenced or implied in many previews and interviews. As I said in the blog, it's so spread out no one is getting the big picture. I just put it all in one spot.

I think the only thing I blew is a couple of the tool's names.

I hadn't seen any reference to any of ModBuddy's capabilities, is the only one I'd missed.

Okay here are the answers......

2K legal has removed this post.

........I love that post.

 

[Dale]

2K Greg was the initial source for there being an IDE to edit the files and make mods, and one of the video interviews (the E3 trailer I believe?) had Shaun and Eric discussing the possibilities with the mod tools.

There's also been hints in various other previews on other sites.

 

[Zen Blade]

Who is in charge of...
nevermind, I see they just created the Civ5 - Creation and Customization folder.

 

[dagriggstar]

Just getting back to something that was mentioned before...

New mods are automatically downloaded ? Are they downloaded new each time (ie download all the files each update) or do they only download the updated files ? Can we turn this off without needing to turn off the internet connection ?

Cos if it keeps auto-downloading, that's going to be seriously annoying for those of us on an Internet quota...

 

[Thorburne]

There is still work being done (Shaun Seckman is pretty much the only guy working on the modding tools), but IIRC they will be available quite soon after release. The versions we have are in a VERY usable state, at least.

The SDK (C++) will not be available immediately, as with Civ4; Needs to be cleaned up, and Shaun has some things he wants to do.

Man. Hope Dale does not get in trouble for that blog post, because if he does than I'm in trouble too at this point.

Well, the other tools like the modbuddy and such I can wait a little time for. The one thing that I would prefer to have a very quick turnaround will be the Worldbuilder. Map making is what I know I can do and I am anxious to get my hands on that part. I am a bit disappointed that it won't be released with the game, but as long as it is out by the end of the week, I will be happy.

I need to get started on the Earth Maps!

Oh, a couple more question... Will we have to wait until ModBuddy and/or other tools are released to make some basic modifications? For example, one of the first things that I would like to do (which would go along with mapmaking) would be to change (at least the names) of some of the City-States. Will we be able to do this right away, or wait until the modding tools are available?

Also, I noticed that their is no folder for the game in the Documents folder (yet anyway). Is that because of Steam or will there be one after it "unlocks"? (I ask that here because I know with CIV IV, the mods would be placed in the documents folder for the game!)

 

[Dale]

Hmmm...... I just checked the image in my blog post again and I missed out WB. It too needs to go through MB. Everything revolves around MB.

The My Games folder is created on first run like Civ4.