Modding Speculation

[Aussie_Lurker]

Actually, I find XMLSpy to be extremely handy for making changes to the XML. Its so elegant & easy to understand !

Aussie.

 

[RogerBacon]

Lua is however, significantly faster than python. You could speed up Civ4 about 35% by removing python. That's no small amount.

Well, I guess that is something but I still dislike lua. If a routine was really time consuming we could alwasy move it to teh C++ code in Civ4.

It's great to see some familiar faces here including a lot fo fellow modders. I wonder how many of our mod concepts from Civ4 made it in to Civ5.

 

[SJSerio]

Who are you railing against? Modders or Firaxis? It's difficult to tell.

In this case, Firaxis! They have better resources and, above all, get paid!

If it's so easy, then why hasn't one been made for Civ4? I think it's a lot more complex than you think, and wouldn't be as useful as you imagine...

I should write that down as a quote.

Because Firaxis didn't bother with it and it seems to me that everybody was nuking the issue and building a program from the ground up. Maybe they felt that Access was beneath them (no offense to most programmers, but many that I meet tend to have "Sheldon Syndrome" )

AS far as how it wouldn't be as useful, please explain... I don't see how an easy to use editor would be harder than editing lines of XML.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I don't know if this has been asked in the thread before, but I was wondering whether you can see what's in the art files? (as in the actual art)

 

[Dale]

I just released I have been modding for over a year now. I started two summers ago...

July 2005 is when I started modding Civ4.

 

[Pazyryk]

Moderator Action: Threads merged.
Not every questions needs its own thread, there are likely similar threads around, yu can use these.

It's going to be tough packing all the mod questions into one thread (or it will be soon enough). hint, hint...

 

[Dale]

In this case, Firaxis! They have better resources and, above all, get paid!

It's my experience from the industry that Firaxis wouldn't get much say in what tools are made and how much is spent on each area. It's easy to point the finger and say "you should've just paid someone to do it", but where will that money come from?

 

[The_J]

It's going to be tough packing all the mod questions into one thread (or it will be soon enough). hint, hint...

ainwood will look at the weekend in creating the needed subforums, so there'll be enough place then .

 

[Afforess]

I don't know if this has been asked in the thread before, but I was wondering whether you can see what's in the art files? (as in the actual art)

Can't, we can see where the art is, but the fpks and everything else are encrypted. Unless you have friends with Press accounts, you're out of luck.

In this case, Firaxis! They have better resources and, above all, get paid!



Because Firaxis didn't bother with it and it seems to me that everybody was nuking the issue and building a program from the ground up. Maybe they felt that Access was beneath them (no offense to most programmers, but many that I meet tend to have "Sheldon Syndrome" )

AS far as how it wouldn't be as useful, please explain... I don't see how an easy to use editor would be harder than editing lines of XML.

At this point, I think you're going to have to settle for the old adage - If you want something done right, you'll have to do it yourself. Most of us, for whatever (seemingly insane) reasons, don't have much interest in a GUI XML editor.

 

[SJSerio]

It's my experience from the industry that Firaxis wouldn't get much say in what tools are made and how much is spent on each area. It's easy to point the finger and say "you should've just paid someone to do it", but where will that money come from?

They could have paid their employees. I am possitive that it wouldn't tie up more than 2 or 3 individuals for no more than a couple weeks. Maybe 3 or 4 if they only allocate an hour or two a day.

 

[vamperium]

They could have paid their employees. I am possitive that it wouldn't tie up more than 2 or 3 individuals for no more than a couple weeks. Maybe 3 or 4 if they only allocate an hour or two a day.

Ever hear of something called a budget? My boss can't stand me to be tied up for more than an hour on a project sometimes.

 

[Dale]

They could have paid their employees. I am possitive that it wouldn't tie up more than 2 or 3 individuals for no more than a couple weeks. Maybe 3 or 4 if they only allocate an hour or two a day.

So you'll take those employees off their already important tasks such as MP, diplomacy, bug fixing or AI?

 

[SJSerio]

So you'll take those employees off their already important tasks such as MP, diplomacy, bug fixing or AI?

I am sure that it would not have that big of an impact. Especially if they plan for it! It is pretty simple really. I have seem many other games released with easy to use database editors, why is it so hard for Civilization?

Actually, I find XMLSpy to be extremely handy for making changes to the XML. Its so elegant & easy to understand !

Aussie.

HOLY CRAP!!! The prices are outrageous! Firaxis has the resources for that! I am just trying to make sure that I have enough just to get the game! I'd have to take out a small loan in order to get that program! (...and Maryland doesn't allow small loans!)

 

[EmperorFool]

Damn! I hate lua. I've tried to get my hands around it a couple of times in other games and it never works. Why would they switch? Python was so great becasue you could make a change alt-tab back into a running game and see the changes right away. No compiling needed. I HATE lua!

Lua is an interpreted language just like Python. There's no reason they couldn't allow alt-tabbing in and out to reload the modified files. The problem is that if you have a more complex mod that tracks a lot of state (e.g. BUG), that breaks when you alt-tab back in and that state is gone.

Lua is however, significantly faster than python. You could speed up Civ4 about 35% by removing python. That's no small amount.

The downside is that Lua is harder to learn and use AFAICT from reading the book and tinkering in the shell. There are many ways to implement objects yourself, but nothing built in to Lua. Everything is a table much like everything in Python is a dictionary, except that Python then built classes and objects on top to make them easy to use.

I think it's going to be a lot harder for non-professionals to pick up Lua, but I really hope I'm wrong. For example, I've pointed many new modders at HTTLACS, and they've been able to jump in to modding. I read the Lua book and the reference, and still don't have a good feel for the language. Clearly this will improve once we get out hands on the running Civ5 code.

 

[Afforess]

HOLY CRAP!!! The prices are outrageous! Firaxis has the resources for that! I am just trying to make sure that I have enough just to get the game! I'd have to take out a small loan in order to get that program! (...and Maryland doesn't allow small loans!)

Couple Hundred is outrageous? I'd call that a bargain. It would cost a lot more to pay programmers to write a custom GUI than it would to pay for an existing one.

 

[Afforess]

The downside is that Lua is harder to learn and use AFAICT from reading the book and tinkering in the shell. There are many ways to implement objects yourself, but nothing built in to Lua. Everything is a table much like everything in Python is a dictionary, except that Python then built classes and objects on top to make them easy to use.

I think it's going to be a lot harder for non-professionals to pick up Lua, but I really hope I'm wrong. For example, I've pointed many new modders at HTTLACS, and they've been able to jump in to modding. I read the Lua book and the reference, and still don't have a good feel for the language. Clearly this will improve once we get out hands on the running Civ5 code.

I'm hoping that previous C, C++, Python, and Java experience is going to give me at least a small understanding, and then I can learn from the Internet and code examples in Civ5... We shall see...

 

[EmperorFool]

I'm hoping that previous C, C++, Python, and Java experience is going to give me at least a small understanding, and then I can learn from the Internet and code examples in Civ5... We shall see...

I don't anticipate you having any trouble. I also wouldn't put you in the category of "new modders." I have found as I've learned each new language that it gets easier to learn the next one.

The deal with Lua isn't so much that's it's complicated as that it's so generic. Instead of a Leatherman with lots of different tools for different jobs, you get a band saw. Sure, you can hammer nails and drive screws with a band saw, but it's not specialized for those tasks so they become harder. You pretty much have to build everything you need in Lua using tables whereas Python gives you dictionaries, lists, sets, classes, objects, etc.

Lua has tons of libraries that implement many of these things no doubt, and hopefully the Firaxians built their classes and objects using a reasonable method in Lua (I've seen five ways to do that so far) and provide us with some good libraries from the start.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

HOLY CRAP!!! The prices are outrageous! Firaxis has the resources for that! I am just trying to make sure that I have enough just to get the game! I'd have to take out a small loan in order to get that program! (...and Maryland doesn't allow small loans!)

Say what? I got XMLSpy completely free?!?! Where are you looking? Sure it's not the professional version with all the bells & whistles, but it does the job!

Aussie.

 

[EmperorFool]

Is that like using a regular spy instead of a great spy?

 

[SJSerio]

Couple Hundred is outrageous? I'd call that a bargain. It would cost a lot more to pay programmers to write a custom GUI than it would to pay for an existing one.

If the programmers on already on the payroll, then where is the extra costs? Now, instead, if I want to be able to have a chance of editing or modding, I have to pay a fortune to do so? To be honest, all I hear is excuses! I haven't heard one good rationalization for why Firaxis can't create an editor. Other companies have done it! It is not so hard for a company with the direct resources to be able to do something. Instead, it appears that they would rather leave it on the shoulders of the fans...

To be honest, it is a slap in the face. This angers me because I feel that they just want to stifle creativity and reserve it for the gifted few. Programming isn't something that can be learned over night! It takes much time... I've tried to teach myself. I don't have the time for classes right now (unless I want to cancel out any and all leisure in my life). And I am NOT a programmer. I know that Sid Meier believes that a good designer is a programmer, but I cannot disagree more... with all due respect to Mr. Meier. A programmer and a Designer are two different things, no matter how you slice it.

And yes, XML is programming. As far as I am concerned, if you use a text file to write it and it is lines of code (be it C++ or XML) it is programming.