Modding the aspects of "Game Speed"
- Thread starter King Jason
- Start date
alerum68
Priest of Hiroshima
Fachy said:I've been thinking on this like crazy for about 7 hours over 2 days, filled 2.5 big papers with small handwritten tables + playing the game to test and I got it!!!
Given the number of years must be 6050, and we're trying to increase the number of turns to exceed the Epic period, we face this problem: the minimum turn length is one year
To make this easy, let's take 2 critical points: Founding of Christianity just after 0 CE, and invention of the tank just after 1900 CE (for simplicity). I found out that Christianity is discovered after about 250 turns, and the tank about 750 turns, given a base of ~1000 turns (which I was trying to engineer)
Adjusting xianity to be found ~0 CE is easy no matter how long the game is...
NOW! No matter how lengthy we make this game, the tanks should be invented and have 150 more turns left to be played right? Because the minimum length is 1 year...
SO, if you try to make a lengthy game, normally lowering the power of research, you'd have this atrocious outcome: what was to be researched in 150 years in the Epic mode, would be researched in 150+ years, given the slower tech rate! This results in so many future technologies missed if the game ends at 2050
It is impossible to have a balanced game which exceeds perhaps even the NORMAL mode... you'd be forced to give up some late techs or simply screw the timings, have tanks at 1800 CE and/or Christianity found by 200 BC
I personally made an acceptable 900-turn model, had the research set to 225, this way I think (coz I haven't tested it yet) Christianity and tanks should be ok, but I'll spend the last 150 years with a research rate of 225, meaning I'll miss about 1/3 of the future technologies designed to end by 2050, ASSUMING I would've gotten them all in the Epic mode, which I even doubt.
Of course more details could be done at this if you took more points than my mere 2, providing more details (assuming you'd survive to post it here!)
Solutions?
Either to spam 2k with emails to mod xml files so it'd accept fractions, or,
Have some way of adjusting different research rates to each era, or,
End the game after 2050
Another solution would be to create the mod so the cost of late era techs are extremely cheap to acquire, AND have "first to discover recieves free tech" techs attached to it. Even if the AI gets it first, you can broker for it. This should help allow late era techs to almost spam out there. Just a suggestion, and yes I'm aware of how this could be abused.
No I insist on playing a historically accurate game, it's not fun when christianity has been found for 100 years and it's still 50 BC, pffft. I mean, it's 50 BEFORE CHRIST!!
Alerum the problem with that maybe is that it makes discovering techs too fast that it sucks coz you'll have to upgrade units every other turn or something, which is already faster than it should be!
Alerum the problem with that maybe is that it makes discovering techs too fast that it sucks coz you'll have to upgrade units every other turn or something, which is already faster than it should be!
I posted my latest XML in the mods forum. Anybody interested can find it here: Buey's epic game speed MOD
So far I'm having a blast with it, though the game starts pretty slow. I can't really think of a good way to speed up the beginning of the game (just the part that leads up to your first couple of settlers). If I just relaxed the values for the ancient era it'd throw off the balance of the rest of the game. I don't really mind it though, I remember having to hit enter a lot when I just started out on on epic speed, too.
I like the 6000 turn game idea, but I think it's clearly something that can't be achieved until the SDK comes out. Plus it'll take a LONG time to develop since playtesting a single game could last weeks! But I think it could happen eventually. Until then, I'll play my own 1345 turn version.
So far I'm having a blast with it, though the game starts pretty slow. I can't really think of a good way to speed up the beginning of the game (just the part that leads up to your first couple of settlers). If I just relaxed the values for the ancient era it'd throw off the balance of the rest of the game. I don't really mind it though, I remember having to hit enter a lot when I just started out on on epic speed, too.
I like the 6000 turn game idea, but I think it's clearly something that can't be achieved until the SDK comes out. Plus it'll take a LONG time to develop since playtesting a single game could last weeks! But I think it could happen eventually. Until then, I'll play my own 1345 turn version.
CivalGanjaman
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2005
- Messages
- 70
umm fachy, you seem to really care about christianity being made at 0AD. However in real life christianity was yet unknown at this point, and jesus was actually a Jew.
First, Thanks to ALL ! This has been a great thread, with alot of ideas that have been really fun to play with. I think I almost enjoy playing WITH the game more than playing it...
It seems that in order for any real, meaningful change in the game to take place, both a balance and an adjustment to the speed of discovery of technologies must take place.
Alot of threads about tech costs are here, which definitely changes the face of the game. I feel this is one of the necessities, but another way to achieve a similar result is to look at how the game uses prerequisite techs... not re-writing the tech tree, but changing how the game recognizes it's OK for you start researching the next tech up the tree.
One thing I REALLY dislike, which has been mentioned here numerous times, is getting to an era ( medieval ), and finding out another civ has riflemen already. Changing the cost of techs may prolong this, but won't address how the civ got there so fast ahead of you. Because both the AI and the Human player beeline for specific "pet" techs, the current open tech tree allows for onesided, lopsided and strange occurences in the Civ 4 world of technology. By changing how prereq techs work, we can limit this, allowing for those matched, era specific elongated military conflicts we all seem to long for.
In the tech tree, techs that require a tech, ( prereq ) have an AND or an OR modifier in the XML file.
An example: Monarchy
In the original tech tree, one can get to monarchy by researching priesthood OR monotheism. There isn't an AND modifier at all. This means a one sided approach to the tech is possible, allowing you ( or the AI ) to beeline one side of the tech tree and completely ignore the other. The same is true for alot of the game changing techs as well, ie Military Tradition, Assembly Line, Gunpowder...
While this creates what some would call "strategy", I just found it far to easy to beeline, which in my book makes it "manipulation". Get to the key techs and dominate... I think it also makes you "tip your hand", so to speak. Your agenda is revealed in the techs you choose, as well as the agenda of the AI civs. I think the AI already have a disadvantage due to the traits they're given. You know, as a human player, that Montezuma is going to war, and as your closest neighbor, you'll follow a military strategy, at least until he's gone. ( I think that that's a whole other thread, so I'll end it here...) Suffice to say that changing the prereqs forces the AI to utilize techs outside their traits, which makes them all the more formidable.( I would think this to also be the case in a MP game, where knowing the beelines would allow you many clues of another players intentions...)
In keeping with the thread, I sought to balance the techs out, create a more level playing field ( not only for you but for the AI ), and make it so a player was rewarded for a sound scientific strategy, wether they be human or not.
To do this, I changed every single OR prereq tech to an AND prereq tech. Instead of choosing one tech to research before Monarchy, you now have to research them both. In the grander scheme of things, it means you MUST run the whole tech tree. Not only do you have to decide what will really benefit you now... you have to figure out what you're going to do while your researching that tech you always used to let go, because it was obsolite before you got it...
I found I had to totally change how I had to play, and a focus on tech was now a real necessity. In addition, I found the eras to last that little bit longer due to having all of the players going back in the tree to those techs they usually didn't research. This leads to what we're all looking for, extended time with the different unit types. ( I also played with tweaking costs, era's etc... which really allowed for prolonged action with the medieval era. I don't go far past 500 turns for a game, and still had over 100 turns with to play with these units...
A TANGENT: To suit my own personal tastes, I added some prereqs for the era changers in order to lengthen the time with Cavalry, Riflemen and Cannon, and then again to Assmembly Line so I could have Machine Gunners, Infantry and Artillery together for a time. I basically required techs from the other side of the tree that would be required in the real world if you think about it.
An example would be the Assembly Line tech. I made Railroad, Steel, and Steam Power required techs. Henry Fords first assembly line was after we had the railroads criss-crossing the whole country... In my mind, requiring these just puts the tech in the timeline where it should be in relation to history.
Negatives....
I play 500-550 turn games, so alot of what I put here is related to that...
1) There is still not enough time with the Cavalry/Rifleman era for my tastes, even though historically you could say it's acurate due to their real time in the real world... I run around 70 turns in each of the last 4 eras, 3,2,1,1 year per turn respectively... and it still seems like I'm into Machine guns and Infantry way too quickly. ( Machine gunners are available with Assembly Line ) If I wanted to go to 600 or 700 turns, I could change my years per turn to 1 and expand this era a bit. It's nice to have that option...
2) The AI still blow you away in the early game, especially with tech trading allowed. I had never been one for dedicated cities, but a science city is a MUST if you want to keep up with the AI. Once past Guilds, my style of play comes into its own, and I'm able to get some techs first, which allow me to trade pretty well for awhile. Once into Rifleman, I usually break away from the pack, and the research issue is nonexistant.
3) The inevitable tech every 3-5 turns... Because I play shorter games, and had a reformat of the hard drive I've been playing with the original tech costs. In the past, I raised tech prices by 10% an era from renaissance on, and this worked pretty well. Now that my computer is back and healthy, I'm going to delve more into Doskei's ideas of individual tech pricing....
4) Sometimes you just don't have a whole lot to choose from. In the past, you'd have 8 or 9 techs to go for. You have that now in the early game, but as the game progresses, the stop gaps on the key techs ( because they have additional prereqs ) can lead you to some times of 3 or 4 choices. To me, it just means I'm doing OK, and that I'm near the end of an era. To some, they may want to have some more choice, even if it means you're attacking Machine guns with knights.... Note that this has more to do with the TANGENT above than with the original tech tree...
All in all, It's a little work, but I believe the result is well worth the time. By balancing out the tree in this way, the AI and the player must both deal with the same obsticles. The AI respond very well to this, as their tendancy to value strange or useless techs is minimized, while the human player now has to deal with the same strange and useless techs they'd otherwise beeline past. Combined with cost changes, wether they be tech specific or era specific, the change really comes life. Even with the shorter games that I tend to play, I have had many, many satisfying medieval battles over many, many turns.
Tim aka....antracer
It seems that in order for any real, meaningful change in the game to take place, both a balance and an adjustment to the speed of discovery of technologies must take place.
Alot of threads about tech costs are here, which definitely changes the face of the game. I feel this is one of the necessities, but another way to achieve a similar result is to look at how the game uses prerequisite techs... not re-writing the tech tree, but changing how the game recognizes it's OK for you start researching the next tech up the tree.
One thing I REALLY dislike, which has been mentioned here numerous times, is getting to an era ( medieval ), and finding out another civ has riflemen already. Changing the cost of techs may prolong this, but won't address how the civ got there so fast ahead of you. Because both the AI and the Human player beeline for specific "pet" techs, the current open tech tree allows for onesided, lopsided and strange occurences in the Civ 4 world of technology. By changing how prereq techs work, we can limit this, allowing for those matched, era specific elongated military conflicts we all seem to long for.
In the tech tree, techs that require a tech, ( prereq ) have an AND or an OR modifier in the XML file.
An example: Monarchy
In the original tech tree, one can get to monarchy by researching priesthood OR monotheism. There isn't an AND modifier at all. This means a one sided approach to the tech is possible, allowing you ( or the AI ) to beeline one side of the tech tree and completely ignore the other. The same is true for alot of the game changing techs as well, ie Military Tradition, Assembly Line, Gunpowder...
While this creates what some would call "strategy", I just found it far to easy to beeline, which in my book makes it "manipulation". Get to the key techs and dominate... I think it also makes you "tip your hand", so to speak. Your agenda is revealed in the techs you choose, as well as the agenda of the AI civs. I think the AI already have a disadvantage due to the traits they're given. You know, as a human player, that Montezuma is going to war, and as your closest neighbor, you'll follow a military strategy, at least until he's gone. ( I think that that's a whole other thread, so I'll end it here...) Suffice to say that changing the prereqs forces the AI to utilize techs outside their traits, which makes them all the more formidable.( I would think this to also be the case in a MP game, where knowing the beelines would allow you many clues of another players intentions...)
In keeping with the thread, I sought to balance the techs out, create a more level playing field ( not only for you but for the AI ), and make it so a player was rewarded for a sound scientific strategy, wether they be human or not.
To do this, I changed every single OR prereq tech to an AND prereq tech. Instead of choosing one tech to research before Monarchy, you now have to research them both. In the grander scheme of things, it means you MUST run the whole tech tree. Not only do you have to decide what will really benefit you now... you have to figure out what you're going to do while your researching that tech you always used to let go, because it was obsolite before you got it...
I found I had to totally change how I had to play, and a focus on tech was now a real necessity. In addition, I found the eras to last that little bit longer due to having all of the players going back in the tree to those techs they usually didn't research. This leads to what we're all looking for, extended time with the different unit types. ( I also played with tweaking costs, era's etc... which really allowed for prolonged action with the medieval era. I don't go far past 500 turns for a game, and still had over 100 turns with to play with these units...
A TANGENT: To suit my own personal tastes, I added some prereqs for the era changers in order to lengthen the time with Cavalry, Riflemen and Cannon, and then again to Assmembly Line so I could have Machine Gunners, Infantry and Artillery together for a time. I basically required techs from the other side of the tree that would be required in the real world if you think about it.
An example would be the Assembly Line tech. I made Railroad, Steel, and Steam Power required techs. Henry Fords first assembly line was after we had the railroads criss-crossing the whole country... In my mind, requiring these just puts the tech in the timeline where it should be in relation to history.
Negatives....
I play 500-550 turn games, so alot of what I put here is related to that...
1) There is still not enough time with the Cavalry/Rifleman era for my tastes, even though historically you could say it's acurate due to their real time in the real world... I run around 70 turns in each of the last 4 eras, 3,2,1,1 year per turn respectively... and it still seems like I'm into Machine guns and Infantry way too quickly. ( Machine gunners are available with Assembly Line ) If I wanted to go to 600 or 700 turns, I could change my years per turn to 1 and expand this era a bit. It's nice to have that option...
2) The AI still blow you away in the early game, especially with tech trading allowed. I had never been one for dedicated cities, but a science city is a MUST if you want to keep up with the AI. Once past Guilds, my style of play comes into its own, and I'm able to get some techs first, which allow me to trade pretty well for awhile. Once into Rifleman, I usually break away from the pack, and the research issue is nonexistant.
3) The inevitable tech every 3-5 turns... Because I play shorter games, and had a reformat of the hard drive I've been playing with the original tech costs. In the past, I raised tech prices by 10% an era from renaissance on, and this worked pretty well. Now that my computer is back and healthy, I'm going to delve more into Doskei's ideas of individual tech pricing....
4) Sometimes you just don't have a whole lot to choose from. In the past, you'd have 8 or 9 techs to go for. You have that now in the early game, but as the game progresses, the stop gaps on the key techs ( because they have additional prereqs ) can lead you to some times of 3 or 4 choices. To me, it just means I'm doing OK, and that I'm near the end of an era. To some, they may want to have some more choice, even if it means you're attacking Machine guns with knights.... Note that this has more to do with the TANGENT above than with the original tech tree...
All in all, It's a little work, but I believe the result is well worth the time. By balancing out the tree in this way, the AI and the player must both deal with the same obsticles. The AI respond very well to this, as their tendancy to value strange or useless techs is minimized, while the human player now has to deal with the same strange and useless techs they'd otherwise beeline past. Combined with cost changes, wether they be tech specific or era specific, the change really comes life. Even with the shorter games that I tend to play, I have had many, many satisfying medieval battles over many, many turns.
Tim aka....antracer
SythKainyn
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2005
- Messages
- 2
Thanks King Jason! This is exactly what I was looking for. A way to make the years pass more to what I wanted. 
(and the other stuff was usefull as well)
Now if I can find a way to steal tech... I miss that...
(and the other stuff was usefull as well)Now if I can find a way to steal tech... I miss that...
Rabbit_Alex
Prince
It's not exactly what I wanted, but it's the way to go. I'd still prefer to have production of units increased so you could have epic ancient wars using axeman and the like.
Are a lot of folks using FedFX's Mod? I'm going to give it a go with my next game:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=150408
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=150408
Hey guys, I'm not sure if this has been brought up in another thread I'm not aware of, but there is a reasonably simple, if ugly, way of leaving the calendar set to years and still obtaining partial years per turn.
All you need to do is have a have a -long- set of gameturninfo's like:
<GameTurnInfo>
<iYearIncrement>0</iYearIncrement>
<iTurnsPerIncrement>1</iTurnsPerIncrement>
</GameTurnInfo>
<GameTurnInfo>
<iYearIncrement>1</iYearIncrement>
<iTurnsPerIncrement>1</iTurnsPerIncrement>
</GameTurnInfo>
(Which gives you .5 years per turn)
And, of course, you can get other fractions (on average) like .4 with
patterns like: 0100101001
Using this method I've got a speed running at 5 times the length of a "normal" game using an exact match in era length. Civ has no difficulty coping with having turns back to back that are the same year that I've run into. It's possible some of the autosaves might write over each other, but meh. Hope this was useful.
All you need to do is have a have a -long- set of gameturninfo's like:
<GameTurnInfo>
<iYearIncrement>0</iYearIncrement>
<iTurnsPerIncrement>1</iTurnsPerIncrement>
</GameTurnInfo>
<GameTurnInfo>
<iYearIncrement>1</iYearIncrement>
<iTurnsPerIncrement>1</iTurnsPerIncrement>
</GameTurnInfo>
(Which gives you .5 years per turn)
And, of course, you can get other fractions (on average) like .4 with
patterns like: 0100101001
Using this method I've got a speed running at 5 times the length of a "normal" game using an exact match in era length. Civ has no difficulty coping with having turns back to back that are the same year that I've run into. It's possible some of the autosaves might write over each other, but meh. Hope this was useful.
Elhoim
Iron Tower Studio Dev
It is that or the amount of hammers a great engineer gives?
Old thread but I just found it...
What about in the *.civ4worldbuildersave file that launches the game, and you have the calendar set up for weeks. How does the incremental movement described in the last part of the file get effected by that, when it lists the moves as <yearsincrement>??
What about in the *.civ4worldbuildersave file that launches the game, and you have the calendar set up for weeks. How does the incremental movement described in the last part of the file get effected by that, when it lists the moves as <yearsincrement>??
well... one year later! is there a version of real "epic" style, everyone can agree on? its maybe a little bit to easy to ask for it, simple like that, after so many people spent a lot of their freetime to find an answer to this pretty old thread! so, anyone is really happy with his modding results (and wants to share it for public? 
)
greets
Olli
so, anyone is really happy with his modding results (and wants to share it for public? )greets
Olli
