Jarlaxe Baenre
Emperor
Flips do not count as cities lost. As China a few weeks ago, I gave Mongolia 2 of my cities (I thought above the lake was safe from them!) and still won the UHV.
Modscenario: Playable Byzantines, 610AD.
- Thread starter TDK
- Start date
I was an early skeptic of the "Silk" UHV, but I grew to really like it after dozens of play-test sessions, so I want to go on record as wanting to see it stay. It works really well in game play and adds an intriguing alt-history dimension.
Game play has to be the most important thing to a mod, and the Silk condition really brings the playable-Byzantines into focus. It gives a reason for focusing like a laser on Astronomy and related techs (for opening a sea route to the east) and will guide your strategy in dealing with the Arabs. And because it's not connected to territorial conquest it is not a hostage to weird and unmanageable stability issues. (Issues which are even harder for the programmer to deal with than for a player. As a poster above noted, strange things might happen if Rome and Byzantium are fighting over the same stability maps.)
Making the reconquest of Italy a goal is not as historically sound as people make out. Justinian was the last emperor to make a seriously play for the west, and it's an anachronistic goal in a post-Arab playground. Historically, the Byzantines resigned themselves to the loss of Egypt and the Levant when it became apparent that the Arab polities were too strong to be displaced, and only fought over strategic bits of ground. Why would Byzantium, even if it recovered its eastern possessions, take a different attitude toward the west and lust to retake Italy, Spain and France when those lands were clearly in the grip of new and stable regimes?
Besides, Europe is already a snakepit of competing civs. If you want to fight to conquer western Europe you already have too many choices of civs to play. Why do you have to insist on making Byzantium another player in that arena? And if you do insist on it, there's no reason you can't play a non-UHV game in this modmod and try for a late-Justinian strategy.
Finally, the Silk condition is a good motive for playing an interesting alt-history scenario by making Byzantium a colonial competitor operating from an interesting geographical position. The Turks and the Arabs competed with the Portuguese and the Dutch for control of the Indian Ocean and its trade, but that very real but overlooked competition is not part of their RFC games. Giving Byzantium the Silk UHV does introduce that competition in a new and plausible setting. A Byzantine Empire that beat back and destroyed the Arabs and survived the arrival of the Turks would have been in their position vis-à-vis the European Atlantic powers.
The Silk condition is just fun on so many levels that I think it really deserves to stay.
Game play has to be the most important thing to a mod, and the Silk condition really brings the playable-Byzantines into focus. It gives a reason for focusing like a laser on Astronomy and related techs (for opening a sea route to the east) and will guide your strategy in dealing with the Arabs. And because it's not connected to territorial conquest it is not a hostage to weird and unmanageable stability issues. (Issues which are even harder for the programmer to deal with than for a player. As a poster above noted, strange things might happen if Rome and Byzantium are fighting over the same stability maps.)
Making the reconquest of Italy a goal is not as historically sound as people make out. Justinian was the last emperor to make a seriously play for the west, and it's an anachronistic goal in a post-Arab playground. Historically, the Byzantines resigned themselves to the loss of Egypt and the Levant when it became apparent that the Arab polities were too strong to be displaced, and only fought over strategic bits of ground. Why would Byzantium, even if it recovered its eastern possessions, take a different attitude toward the west and lust to retake Italy, Spain and France when those lands were clearly in the grip of new and stable regimes?
Besides, Europe is already a snakepit of competing civs. If you want to fight to conquer western Europe you already have too many choices of civs to play. Why do you have to insist on making Byzantium another player in that arena? And if you do insist on it, there's no reason you can't play a non-UHV game in this modmod and try for a late-Justinian strategy.
Finally, the Silk condition is a good motive for playing an interesting alt-history scenario by making Byzantium a colonial competitor operating from an interesting geographical position. The Turks and the Arabs competed with the Portuguese and the Dutch for control of the Indian Ocean and its trade, but that very real but overlooked competition is not part of their RFC games. Giving Byzantium the Silk UHV does introduce that competition in a new and plausible setting. A Byzantine Empire that beat back and destroyed the Arabs and survived the arrival of the Turks would have been in their position vis-à-vis the European Atlantic powers.
The Silk condition is just fun on so many levels that I think it really deserves to stay.
kochman
Deity
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Rome and Byzantium DID fight over the same stability map!!!
The problem with the silk condition is, the mechanism of the game and this UHV combine to have zero percent to do with reality. It's really not even relevant... they didn't ever have "astronomy" in the sense of Civ4, for one thing (ocean travel)... and silk was traded, not only through "barbarian" lands, but also by "barbarians", which the game doesn't account for. Also, colonization? Why the heck would they be worried about colonizing when they were fighting for survival against Islam for centuries and centuries without respite?
I see what you are saying about the Italy idea, and I somewhat agree when I think about it, specifically with the statement that Europe is already a snake pit of competition...
BUT... Byzantium was still interested in Europe... despite the competition. They lost their possessions in Italy, for example, by force to the Normans, after 1000ad (however there is no similar force other than stability loss city revolutions to simulate this)... Had they not been facing constant islamic pressure, believe me they would have fought harder to retain these places and retake what they had lost...
Which leads us to the problem, they were facing constant pressure from islam... which has to be considered. In my games, I have spent the majority of the time fighting to control the near east... therefore, this should focus on defeating Islam perhaps...
So... in conclusion...
1) The Silk UHV is completely unrealistic and doesn't fit (maybe a certain number of all sorts luxury resources instead of just silk?)
2) Perhaps controlling Italy again is not the best alternate...
3) Not losing a city is ok, but... kind of boring (spam spearmen/pikes)...
4) In the end, I think we need some other suggestions for what is best...
Here are the current UHVs...
UHV:
Build 2 Christian Cathedrals by 1100 AD
Secure through trade or take control of 3 silk resources by 1450 AD
Be the first to discover Astronomy, Chemistry and Philosophy
Cathedrals by 1100ad is good, and challenging!
Silk... no
Teching... pretty cool, but philosophy? Shouldn't that have already been done by the Greeks? How about...
I think the Silk desperately needs to be replaced by a war/territorial condition... possibles...
*Retake Italy and the Levant
*Control S. Italy/Sicily, Carthage, Anatolia, and Levant
*Control islands of Cyprus, Crete, Sicily, Anatolia and Levant
*Control Black Sea, Anatolia and Levant
*Control traditional "Eastern Roman Empire"... meaning Levant, Egypt, Greece, Anatolia, Sevastopol
*Or, the classic "roman/byzantine" dream that was never successful but often attempted... capture Baghdad and/or defeat Persia/Parthia
Like I said, if you want a war game in the West you can always turn it into a war game in the West. That's what you'd have to do if you were going for a Domination or Conquest victory anyway. But why force the UHV-oriented player to do the exact same thing? Isn't that one of the points to having UHV conditions: That you don't have to do the exact same thing that a Domination-oriented player would? Give the player different ways of winning that demand different strategies, tactics, and developmental paths. Otherwise there is no point to having different kinds of victories.
Your complaints that "they didn't have Astronomy!" and "they traded for Silk through intermediate lands!" also miss the point. There is nothing new in RFC about having UHV conditions that go beyond what a civilization historically accomplished or was even interested in accomplishing: the Greeks never had Optics so they never circumnavigated the globe, and why would they want to? Anyway, if you want to be "realistic" about what the Byzantines had and did then the 3rd UHV condition should be "Slowly collapse like a flan in a cupboard" [/Eddie Izzard reference].
Your critiques of the UHVs also overlook the way they and the Byzantines' geostrategic position interlock:
1. Your relations with the Arabs will always be bad. You have to destroy them.
2. Destroying the Arabs opens up a sea path to the East, which is the most secure form of trade route.
3. That sea route is not fully secure until you discover Astronomy.
4. Astronomy also grants the units which will enable a colonization/conquest descent on the resources of the East.
If you grant the first counterfactual--if you grant that the player might actually beat back the Arabs--then the other points not only open up as gameplay options but as alt-history possibilities as well. It seems to me perfectly plausible that a Byzantine Empire that recaptures the East but faces a hard-to-conquer West, and finds that the Atlantic powers are beating their way around Africa to capture and monopolize its resources at their source, would not be content to keep trading through intermediaries who would no longer be secure suppliers, and would instead use its access to the Indian Ocean to make a play at colonizing and dominating those same sources. This is a kind of game that other civilizations in that area--the Babylonians, Persians, Arabs, and Turks--are not encouraged to play. That's another thing that makes this modmod gratifyingly unique.
Your complaints that "they didn't have Astronomy!" and "they traded for Silk through intermediate lands!" also miss the point. There is nothing new in RFC about having UHV conditions that go beyond what a civilization historically accomplished or was even interested in accomplishing: the Greeks never had Optics so they never circumnavigated the globe, and why would they want to? Anyway, if you want to be "realistic" about what the Byzantines had and did then the 3rd UHV condition should be "Slowly collapse like a flan in a cupboard" [/Eddie Izzard reference].
Your critiques of the UHVs also overlook the way they and the Byzantines' geostrategic position interlock:
1. Your relations with the Arabs will always be bad. You have to destroy them.
2. Destroying the Arabs opens up a sea path to the East, which is the most secure form of trade route.
3. That sea route is not fully secure until you discover Astronomy.
4. Astronomy also grants the units which will enable a colonization/conquest descent on the resources of the East.
If you grant the first counterfactual--if you grant that the player might actually beat back the Arabs--then the other points not only open up as gameplay options but as alt-history possibilities as well. It seems to me perfectly plausible that a Byzantine Empire that recaptures the East but faces a hard-to-conquer West, and finds that the Atlantic powers are beating their way around Africa to capture and monopolize its resources at their source, would not be content to keep trading through intermediaries who would no longer be secure suppliers, and would instead use its access to the Indian Ocean to make a play at colonizing and dominating those same sources. This is a kind of game that other civilizations in that area--the Babylonians, Persians, Arabs, and Turks--are not encouraged to play. That's another thing that makes this modmod gratifyingly unique.
kochman
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The bottom line is, 3 silks is not a good UHV condition for the Byzantines. It should be changed... it's really bad, despite your far fetched imaginary scenario describing why it is good.
What to change it to is the question. I am not claiming to have the answers, though I provided several and you compared the very mention of controlling areas to conquest/domination victories, which is pretty far from what I am talking about.
What to change it to is the question. I am not claiming to have the answers, though I provided several and you compared the very mention of controlling areas to conquest/domination victories, which is pretty far from what I am talking about.
kochman
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Actually, I don't need to convince anyone. You are the only person to support the 3 silk idea that I have seen. So, perhaps you can craft another far flung scenario where it becomes reasonable for us since the first one fell flat.
Regarding the creator of the mod... Actually, I have already given TDK great credit for this work. I will do it again! I love this mod, and was estatic to see it, download it, and play it. Thanks again, TDK!
I am also giving constructive criticism... sorry that bothers you, Mxzs, but I guess you will just have to deal with it. I wasn't rude to the creator of this mod...
You on the other hand
Regarding the creator of the mod... Actually, I have already given TDK great credit for this work. I will do it again! I love this mod, and was estatic to see it, download it, and play it. Thanks again, TDK!
I am also giving constructive criticism... sorry that bothers you, Mxzs, but I guess you will just have to deal with it. I wasn't rude to the creator of this mod...
You on the other hand
usi
Shogun
If someone updates the mod to the latest patch, I'll be fully convinced that the UHV conditions in the mod are the most logical and historically accurate ones...
kochman
Deity
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The thing about resources from the FAR east, any, is Byzantine didn't really have trade routes with China... nor colonies out there...
They traded through intermediaries, and the game doesn't really allow for that.
On the other hand, incense would be a HUGE resource for them to get, due to its heavy usage in orthodox ceremony.
That does bring up a good question, though, usi.
Will this be updated to the most current and apparently final RFC patch?
They traded through intermediaries, and the game doesn't really allow for that.
On the other hand, incense would be a HUGE resource for them to get, due to its heavy usage in orthodox ceremony.
That does bring up a good question, though, usi.
Will this be updated to the most current and apparently final RFC patch?
AOS9001
Slightly over 9000.
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There is incense in Egypt... It goes hand in hand with some of the re-conquering goals that might replace the 3 silk.
mechaerik
Tuturuu!
Italy shouldnt be too hard to make (just check if you control Romes core), the Levant, on the other hand would be harder to check for, youd have to define what the Levant is.
See what I said about the Levant above...
A check to see if you control Arabia and/or Persia shouldnt be too hard either.
If you want me to try my hand at making these, I could, but itll be hard and might take a while. I can try though. Which do you want me to attempt?
kochman
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Wow, thanks for the offer!
For the easier modding answer, it would probably be conquering Baghdad and Persia/Parthia areas.
For the harder modding answer, I think control Anatolia, Levant (Lebanon, Israel of today), Egypt, and Italy.
What do others prefer?
And, Mechaerik, what do you prefer?
For the easier modding answer, it would probably be conquering Baghdad and Persia/Parthia areas.
For the harder modding answer, I think control Anatolia, Levant (Lebanon, Israel of today), Egypt, and Italy.
What do others prefer?
And, Mechaerik, what do you prefer?
mechaerik
Tuturuu!
I think I can do any of them actually (key word is think). For the "harder" modding answer, it should be pretty simple: Check if you control Turkey's, Greece's, and Rome's core (ala Germany OR Arabia, I don't think Germany counts vassals), and run a check if you control the Levant (which is actually bigger than I thought it was. I always thought it was just Israel, Lebanon, that small area, but its actually much bigger):
Is this mod-mod updated to the latest (last) patch yet? Because I wouldn't bother editing any UHVs before it is. Surely someone could do this? (I'm not volunteering myself because my modding skills are pretty much contained to Python at this point. But if you guys need any help with Python, then I could probably assist. Just holler, but of course mechaerik has point on this. 
)
)
mechaerik
Tuturuu!
AFAIK, UHVs are entirely python. Just one file in fact (Victory.py), and a few lines per condition, so if its ever updated, it will be easy to update the victory as well.
This is of course correct, but unless you are running an outdated version of RFC you won't be able to run the mod-mod yourself. And others will have limited use for your edits. If I'm understanding this correctly, the mod-mod isn't even available anymore...
But I wasn't discouraging you from doing any modding.
I merely reflected on the need to update this piece of abandon-ware... (I might actually use it as a template for a scenario of my own.)It also occurred to me that there should be a custom DLL included - someone needs to update that. And why they are at it - why not port this mod-mod to RFC Marathon? (That mod-mod is bound to become the next big RFC version. I can't see any reason for anyone not to use it for playing - and modding. Because you can always choose regular speed if you like, but will have the option of changing it.)
mechaerik
Tuturuu!
Its available (I think)... And why wouldnt I be able to run it? Its not an addon to RFC, it stands alone. Just like DoC, just because you have a newer patch doesnt mean you cant play it. It just means you cant play it with the new patchs features and fixes.
Oh, my mistake! I never downloaded it myself, so I missed that its self-contained... It deserves to be updated, none-the-less.
