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Monarch Wonderspam Strategy

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by axident, Aug 11, 2007.

  1. axident

    axident Chieftain

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    Good idea to get rid of 2 birds with one stone during anarchy!

    I actually like playing bigger maps and many civs, but my slow computer and iffy graphics card means that I try to compensate by playing low sea level maps with lots of land. Unfortunately this means I'm hemmed in and we have a rather short list of candidates for capital:

    1. Paris. Already lots of settled specialists. Mucho wonders and GP output. Bureau gives +50% hammers which is very useful when wonderspamming.

    2. Sickly whipping boy Orleans. Nice cottages and not much else because it's my default place to build settlers, workers, and missionaries.

    3. Lyons. Takes on the overflow from Paris. Maybe a nice capital if I convert some farms and mines to cottages and windmills, but it's double holy and probably will be my Wall St city. So not worth moving here.

    4. Stone city. Too many bloody water tiles. Already has Moai statues, not good for Oxford/Natl Epic combo that I have mind for Paris. In some wonderspam games though I actually make my capital a cottage heaven while my wonderspamming takes place mostly in a coastal city with Moai and National Epic.

    5. The 2 cities that are barely starting out.. no way they can be capitals.

    Interestingly enough, and as a study in contrasts: in my current Emperor game (Big and Small with all defaults; Standard size; Normal speed), I am Dutch and got a very seafood-heavy and forested-hill heavy capital. I did move my capital in that game. I moved it to a faraway gold/floodplain/forests city and that's worked out well, because it frees up my former capital to be my Heroic Epic/West Point production powerhouse.

    Ironically in that game I have yet to get any wonder other than Great Library (only cause I beelined it), and I have yet to get any free great people other than from Music. Not to mention that I did not find stone, barely found iron (found it practically on the other side of my continent) and had no horses or copper anywhere near my starting position, marble got culturally taken over by my neighbor, and I am being gypped on golden ages without that +50% from Mausoleum. (I burned Music's great artist for 8 turns of golden age, and then completed a colosseums quest much later on for another 8 turns.) Lost liberalism race by about 6 turns. Got screwed by vassal system; I wanted to finish off Persia and capture the Statue of Zeus in the process, but they capitulated to Germany and then the AP owner Ethiopia forced us to declare peace. I just reignited the war by finishing off Persia and hoping Bismarck sends a ton of soldiers to die within my borders so I get no war weariness. Only Bismarck has a higher power rating.

    Like I said, it's a stark contrast to my Monarch Wonderspam game where my military sucks, I have barely fought at all, and where I have almost all of the wonders. :)
     
  2. axident

    axident Chieftain

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  3. axident

    axident Chieftain

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    As you can see, I went from 2 turns away from Currency to 5 turns, just from the latest stupid slave revolt. Thank goodness Paris will only revolt for 1 turn this time and lose only 1 pop this time. (Note: the following turn I'm back at 2 turns from Currency. So the slave revolt set me back a turn's worth of research and hammered Paris's population some more.)

    Resources trading is still anemic. At least one of my spare cows gets me some corn from Portugal.

    You can actually see my axeman raise my power rating. Everybody is still weak enough that a single unit has sharp effects on power. Good, that means that I can still get away with having virtually no military. I keep checking, and both of my neighbors still have empty hands, which is good. My vast culture gives me big land area and additional time to whip, if they do suddenly have "enough on [their] hands."

    Despite the uselessness of Great Lighthouse on this map, I still don't want anyone else to have it, and I set Rheims to Emphasize Production.

    Got Currency. If I had gone for Music, I would have a Great Artist 2 turns from now, but no Mausoleum. This way I get a useful Currency tech and then go for Music, which nobody else can challenge for since I refused to trade or give away Aesthetics early on.

    In fact, as you can see, Mausoleum and Music are now perfectly in sync--7 turns for both.

    Great Lighthouse had about 4 turns left when I got impatient and whipped. I was afraid of someone else getting it first, since I delayed getting Sailing for so long.

    I also finished Hanging Gardens via whip, mostly because I was getting impatient with it, and because I knew I had a big backlog of wonders to build and Hanging Gardens would give me back a population point anyway. After building the Hanging Gardens, Lyons went back to building the oft-maligned Chichen Itza. I forgot to take a screenshot, though.

    Nobody has anything other than Monarchy on me, and I don't really need it right now thanks to Representation from Pyramids. I definitely won't trade anything good away just for Monarchy.

    However, I am at Pleased with a few civs, so I ask them for Monarchy. All of them refused. But it was worth a try!

    Mao asks me to offend my big neighbor. I laugh in his face.

    Barely a second went by and my ungrateful Ethiopian neighbors demand Aesthetics. I say no, figuring that they'd probably rather go after last-place Inca than me if they wanted to war. And I'm itching for a fight right now anyway, so if he suddenly has full hands, I'll be waiting for him. However, I immediately checked, and he still has empty hands.

    Chichen Itza done.

    Stone/fish city (Rheims) I have set to make a Confu monastery. My pre-forge build order is usually granary-libraries-courthouse-monastery, because I expect to get the Apostolic Palace hammer bonus soon, and monasteries are cheap sources of +10% beakers, +2 culture, and +2 hammers. Plus with Spiral Minaret, Univ of Sankore, and Sistine Chapel, they throw off even more gold, beakers, and culture. I also have Lyons take a wonder-building breather and make a monastery. Maybe I can culturally annex that Portugese city with my next border pop!

    But then I realize that I forgot to build the Moai statues. I expect that at least one of the 3 remaining religions (Christianity, Islam, and Taoism) will end up headquartered in Rheims, so I plan to have it be a Wall St/Moai city if Orleans doesn't get double holy. So Rheims starts on Moai statues even before the monastery.

    My whipping boy, Orleans, created a defective missionary to Marseilles. Bah, I could really use as many production bonuses as I can get, including Organized Religion's +25%.

    Nobody has anything other than Monarchy to trade. Except Justin's HBR tech, which I also don't need right now.
     
  4. Scaphism

    Scaphism Boondoggle

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    These are excellent, thanks for the updates so far Axident. I'm itching to go home and start up a new game myself!
     
  5. Kev

    Kev Hired Goon

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    An interesting direction for a Monarch game. I suspect that the slower teching in BTS might lend itself more to something like this..

    I do not have BTS, but is it possible that another civ or 2 is using espionage of some sort to start these rebellions and other issues at Paris. Not sure how that works. Regardless, would a spy on station in Paris be helpful?
     
  6. bovinespy

    bovinespy Chieftain

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    I continue to applaud your efforts, and to follow your updates, but I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop.

    Maybe it's just my post-traumatic stress disorder :crazyeye: speaking, but I know that if I took your exact same 4000BC savegame, in my hands, I would have been ground into Portuguese or Arabian dust centuries ago. I've played 2 games recently where I had really nice, developed peaceful empires going, and in each case, even though I thought I was ready, my armies and navies were swept away in a flash by the AI back-stabbers.

    Good luck on your continued quest for Ultimate Wonder Spam!
    You're going to need it! ;)
     
  7. axident

    axident Chieftain

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    I have a commanding tech lead, which makes one think that the game is pretty advanced already--but it's not! The game is actually fairly young as you can see the significant impact even one axeman has on the power graph. So someone with double my power has, what, a stack of a 1-2 axes, a chariot, and a spear, probably. No big deal.

    If an enemy did declare on me, I'd have a) ample warning ("enough on our hands"), b) several turns to whip thanks to my massive cultural output that creates lots of space around my cities, c) 2 strong production cities that when not building wonders can build units fairly rapidly, and d) I have high cultural defense. I check to see if my neighbors' hands are full literally every single turn.

    The AI tends not to declare war on another civ unless there is nowhere else to expand and there are not barbarian towns nearby. Therefore:

    1. I intentionally didn't try to grab too much land out west, so Ethiopia eventually squeezed in one more city southwest of Paris.

    2. Barb towns are gifts of peace--for you that is. There was a barb town northeast-ish of Ethiopia which probably got the attention of lots of AIs in the region (Inca, Ethiopia, and maybe USA).

    Now in most wonderspam games I've had, the Portugal of that game is seething mad and attacks, I whip some units and my high +% defense from culture helps. If someone else dogpiles I do the same for them. Peace breaks out. I combine my stacks and invade Portugal, utterly annihilating them if I can, suing for peace and techs if I can't. This game I'm playing weak military because both of my neighbors--including Portugal!--somehow got my state religion. If I can get Ethiopia to Friendly, and I fully intend to do so, then I don't have to worry about that flank at all, since almost all AI leaders never declare on Friendly.

    Furthermore, I fully intend to get Apolostic Palace very soon, which makes me nigh-invulnerable to attack from anyone with Confu, as I can vote for peace 2 turns after they invade. (Usually my state religion doesn't spread far, so I dominate voting.)

    And hey we're all learning. I learned about forests and whipping hammers. Also don't do what I did and use prophets on unnecessary shrines--what a waste that was. I also screwed up with Hagia Sofia as you will see later.
     
  8. axident

    axident Chieftain

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  9. axident

    axident Chieftain

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    Paris somehow got its governor turned off. I turn it back on to make the Mausoleum on the same turn that I get the Great Artist from Music. I wonder if this is why Paris looked to take 15 turns on the Mausoleum when I first tried to build it? Maybe I should have gone for Music first, if Paris would have had a much shorter build time. Oh well.

    Perfect syncing, golden age here I come. I go for Theology, which takes just 4 turns to research after my golden age takes effect.

    In the meantime, Orleans is still courthouse-less and making yet another missionary. Maybe this time I can convert my own stupid city to my own state religion, hmm?

    Boudica demands that I stop trading with the USA. I consult my charts first. Then I tell Boudica to buzz off. She's Buddhist and already hate Saladin, and now she hates the USA too. So even if she hates me, I'll be no higher than no. 3 on her hitlist. And she's far away anyway.

    My relations chart shows that I've cultivated decent relations with everyone so far.

    Then Ethiopia shows up and demands that I stop trading with Mao. This is a "request" that I cannot afford to ignore, since Ethiopia is right next door and has a decently-sized army. I regretfully inform Mao that I can no longer trade with him due to my interest in not dying by my neighbor's hand. With any luck, Ethiopia will eventually be Friendly and thus not a military threat.

    Both my neighbors continue to have empty hands.

    Perhaps my building Chichen and now Statue of Zeus gives me a power rating boost? I don't know. Paris starts building a Confu monastery in preparation for Apolostic Palace's hammer bonus.

    I get a Great Scientist. Paris is pretty weak in terms of cottages, but I Academy him there anyway because it's my settled-GP place/Bureaucracy place/future place for Oxford. That action alone gave me just enough beakers to get Theology in 1 turn rather than 2.

    Lyons is busy with Paya.

    Christianity takes up shop in Tours.

    I go after Civil Service next, as a no-brainer tech. Bureaucracy with no anarchy due to the Golden Age, plus I have no serious competition for Philosophy or Paper, the only other must-have-soon techs that I can research.

    Meanwhile, the Confu spreading is reaching epidemic proportions, with worrying implications for my Apolostic Palace voting power.

    Even with golden age, Orleans will take forever to make those missionaries that my newest cities need. I may need to whip during the golden age--something I hate doing because whipping effectively costs more during golden ages, as each citizen that you whip away was producing more than normal.

    Don't ask my why my sheep/copper and cow/horse/oasis cities were making markets. I'm not sure why, either, except I got sloppy and was racing through each turn.

    Moai statues finishes.

    I whip out a missionary at Orleans and switch it into making a chariot to help control unhappiness. It had no military units on it for ages!

    The free Christian missionary I got failed to spread it to Paris. Also, note that Ethiopia founded a city near Paris. Good. You know what I said earlier--if the AI thinks that it can still expand peacefully, it is less likely to wage war. I wasn't going to settle any tundravilles, not when my core cities weren't even all up and running yet, but I'm glad the AI saw an opening and hasn't declared on me yet.

    I finally accept an offer for Monarchy, which I will need to get to Guilds and eventually Economics. I did it as cheaply as possible--with Code of Laws. I only did so because Inca apparently also got CoL and thus I lost my monopoly power over it.
     
  10. axident

    axident Chieftain

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    Well I've posted practically every turn for the world to see, including my less-efficient moves like shrining instead of settling prophets, and it should be clear that it's my game to lose at this point. So I think my job is mostly done now in that I've shown that neglecting Alphabet is quite viable, and that it is possible to monopolize wonders.

    If anyone wants me to post more I think I'll do one or two more full-scale ones and then fast forward by skipping a few turns at a time, cool?

    Ending: lost the game in 1360 AD when Portugal declared war on me and I was in anarchy and could not whip.

    Just kidding. :)
     
  11. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    Continue "sound of popcorns being chewed" , continue.... :lol: . Quite imformative so far :goodjob:
     
  12. UncleJJ

    UncleJJ Chieftain

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    Keep going. I want to see when you decide to cash in all those chips you've won and buy the casino :D . This game is going to explode like a firecracker when you finally decide to go for it. One thing I would counsel is watch out for WW unless you wait until you have jails... although I guess a change to Police State (from The Pyramids) might halve the problem anyway. So you are pretty much clear to expand whenever you have a suitable military technological advantage.
     
  13. Florian

    Florian Chieftain

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    Hail to you, Demo Monarch Louis InlandSeaLow.
     
  14. Archaelicos

    Archaelicos Chieftain

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    I'm not familiar with this jargon, what does it mean to have full hands?
     
  15. axident

    axident Chieftain

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    Talk to a rival civ. Ask them to declare war on someone.. if there is any option in white, then they aren't planning on war with anyone. If ALL options are RED that might be a bad sign.. so put your mouse over some of those names. If the civ says stuff like "we couldn't betray our close friends!" that's fine. If the civ says stuff like "we have enough on our hands right now" that means they are about to declare war on someone--could be the barbarians, another AI civ, or YOU. If they are your neighbors, it probably means YOU.
     
  16. alex sword

    alex sword Raging Barbarian

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    A suggest imporvement of world wonders strategy.

    1. Play Incas - industrial (wonders) + financial (techs) + early uniqie unit
    2. Start quecha rush in the beginning. As soon as the city reaches size of 2, it is possible to generate one quecha per 6 turn at maraphon. Don't build workers or barracks, only quechas.
    3. Start early war and capture at least 2 AI capitals.
    4. while your own capital needs to be developed, captured ones are good and have already captured worker. Start WW spam there while developing your own!
     
  17. axident

    axident Chieftain

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    Incan works fine as well and I've quecha rushed before, but I don't play marathon/epic much anymore and it's not as effective on Normal.

    Also I am done with playing various Industrious leaders, time to move onto new strategies.. though I still spam as many wonders as I can:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5847973
     
  18. UncleJJ

    UncleJJ Chieftain

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    Have you finsihed with this game? I see you have another thread going on a game following an espionage theme :p
     
  19. Simon_c

    Simon_c Chieftain

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    I liked the thread. Thanks for some new ideas.
     
  20. axident

    axident Chieftain

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    You're welcome more coming!
     

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