Monarchist Cookbook Game 3, Hammurabi of Babylon!

[Winston Hughes]

I can't be bothered doing stats for so many games (I'd be guaranteed to make umpteen mistakes anyway), so I thought I'd try something with screenshots.

I don't know how well this'll work, but I'm pretty sure they show most of the relevant info...

 

[Winston Hughes]

Bleys:

Spoiler :

DaveMcW:

Spoiler :

Diamondeye:

Spoiler :

futurehermit:

Spoiler :

 

[Winston Hughes]

huerfanista:

Spoiler :

humppa:

Spoiler :

Rameau's Nephew:

Spoiler :

Ranion:

Spoiler :

 

[Winston Hughes]

r_rolo1:

Spoiler :

Schwartz:

Spoiler :

TheMeInTeam:

Spoiler :

Winston Hughes:

Spoiler :

 

[Winston Hughes]

I just looked at the time taken by each player.

Well done to Ranion for crushing my measly 2 hours 49 minutes with a truly majestic 6 hours 6 minutes.

I stopped to paint a bedroom. What's your excuse?

Diamondeye wins the award for quick play with a lightning fast 19 minutes, beating TMIT and humppa into joint second place by 1 minute.

 

[ranion]

check my autolog/report,

it starts at 10:47 and goes to 11:25, had to go out and about with my mom and sister to help my sister look for an apartment, i thought i had saved the game and quit, but i obviously didn't follow through on confirming that i quit. i got back at 4:45ish and instead of reloading my save i just kept playing. all told it took me about an hour, but it's clocked at 6

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You can pause the game if your keyboard has a button for it...

 

[ranion]

You can pause the game if your keyboard has a button for it...

didn't know that, granted the game is turn based so its not like its going anywhere, and i don't play for my game timer so i don't think it matters that much, i mean really is the computer going to use all that extra time to think up uber strategies to beat me with, and if it did would it really be a bad thing?

that said, as far as the saves go, if we aren't going with Dave McW's save then I'd say Bleys or Winston have the 'best' saves.

my main metric for the quality of the save is the tech rate, followed by city placement and what techs the beakers went into.

Bleys Save:

Bleys had the second highest tech rate out of all the submissions for that round, after Dave, with 1559 beakers invested across his choices, i like that he has mysticism, and he's close to pottery. Sailing means his gem city will be connected as soon as its settled, and then all he has to do is tech iron working and those gems are ready to go. I like the location of Akkad...
Sorry, thats only partly true, I like the location of Akkad for the short and mid term, the clam it ninjas from Babylon will fuel some nice growth for whipping. It loses some of its luster in the long term because of its overlap with the capital, specifically the clam, but aside from that coastal tiles don't matter that much really.

Spoiler :

also it misses the iron, but thats not really a big deal, another city can grab that just as easily.

the only 'con' i see is that he's dumping hammers into the great wall, which isn't really a 'con' necessarily, but its a few hammers that could easily be another settler or worker, especially given that we're in a good place barb wise, bowmen are pretty killer anti barb units with their built in anti melee, and we're well enough sandwiched by the AI's that the number of anti barb units needed would be relatively few if we filled up the empty spaces quickly enough. While its not what i would have done (obviously) that is sorta the point

Winston's save:

Admittedly i don't like Winston's save as much as Bleys', however it does have alot going for it, Winston also had a fairly strong tech rate that round (tied with me for 4th place with 1516 beakers invested (FH was #3 with 1519 ) and his push for the GLH makes a lot of sense considering that our relatively narrow stretch of continent is going to be filled out with cities that are almost exclusively coastal for quite some time. His placement of Akkad is interesting, with plenty of food from the wheat and poaching one of the clams and it claims the meager strategic resource pool that we have.

Spoiler :

including our iron, so its not really so meager after all.

Winston's Akkad has similar problems to Bleys', however it's overlap is, again, likely to be fairly negligible in the long run.

Problems with Winston's save involve mainly the fact that Dur-Kurigalzu, while a good city leaves little food for a city between it and the capital, further there is no city up near toku and the gems, and as such (especially given the focus on the GLH) we would be unlikely to settle a city up there. Babylon's growth is well timed to avoid unhappiness, but i cant help but feel like he could probably eke out more production to hurry up the GLH by a few turns (although the workers will have the forests mined pretty soon iirc 5 turns and 10 turns respectively) Also, those cows need to be pastured asap to take advantage of the hammers and food.

those are my thoughts, I'd also like to point out that after closer examination of all the saves, while Dave's is clearly the strongest I'm no longer really convinced that it is so significantly better than the rest as to be game breaking. That said, I'd still like to forgo its use in favor of a more middle of the road save, the 'best of the rest' if you will.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I've had less problems with memory nonsense when pausing it...along with the timer one reason I pointed it out .

 

[Winston Hughes]

Nice analysis, ranion.

With regards to my own save, I agree that Dur-K could've been better placed. If I'd explored just a bit further down the coast, then I might have realised that in game. Meh, such is the price of choosing a worker, rather than a warrior, to start.

I am a little surprised, however, that no-one else went for my Akkad spot.

While the long-term prospects are not as good as Dave/fh's plains hill position, I still rate it the best short-term option, being the only (coastal) site with immediate access to food (from the borrowed clams) whilst securing the elephants for immediate improvement. I'm definitely one for coming out of the blocks as fast as possible, so I tend to pay little (if any) heed to long-term considerations when choosing a site for my second city. That it will also secure the iron (after a border pop), is an unanticipated but very welcome bonus.

As for the best ball, I'm still undecided.

Had he remembered to provide for some kind of barb defence, then rolo's save would probably be my first choice. Securing both the gems and the GLh would mean we keep a very strong tech rate, whilst expanding quickly to fill the remaining (half-decent) sites, and preparing for a possible war.

As it is, though, I believe we are about to reach (or have already reached) the point where barbs start to cross our borders. I'd guess that some players would get lucky and see no barb incursions, while others might lose a city (probably the unguarded Dur-K), or at least have their development severely curtailed. If it was just me playing, then I might well take the risk, but it's better, imo, not to leave the best ball competition to rely so heavily on luck.

The other three I'm mulling over are those of Rameau's Nephew, Diamondeye, and Bleys. Each of them offers a quite different prospect for the next round and, potentially, the rest of the game. If I have time later on, then I'll give a better explanation of why I'm attracted to these saves.

At the moment, like you, I'm leaning towards Bleys. But I'd like to take another look, and hopefully to hear some other players' assessments before I cast my vote.

 

[futurehermit]

The thing with the gems site in Bleys and Rolo's games, however, is that that city is going to be useless to us until we get IW (unlike in Dave's game) and it makes us more susceptible to getting attacked by Toku before we are ready. Also, I suspect we would lose the GW in Bleys', which would give us cash, but I wonder if other builds could've taken priority.

Obviously, based on my contribution, I'm a bit opposite from Winston playing more for the medium-term than the immediate short term. I figured our land is not great, so it is best to try to get the most out of it that we can. I also think the hammers available to the settling-on-the-plains-hill city shouldn't be discounted.

I'm not sure which save I like best tbh as I have different concerns about each one. I do think that whichever save is picked, it should be one that leads us to getting the GLH. I think that is an important wonder for this map. I also agree that the save should have some defenses in place to deal with barbs. City placement and the presence of perhaps badly placed barb cities is also an issue for me with many of the saves.

That's what I'm thinking at this point.

 

[Winston Hughes]

The thing with the gems site in Bleys and Rolo's games, however, is that that city is going to be useless to us until we get IW (unlike in Dave's game)

A very good point, and one which might well have an effect on how I cast my vote. I'd be less concerned that we couldn't hook up the gems immediately, than that the city won't even have food until some time after IW. That's a total junk city for, potentially, 30+ turns. Having only two working cities for a big chunk of the next round is rather unappealing, now you come to mention it.

Also, I suspect we would lose the GW

You think so? That would definitely count heavily against Bleys' save. But given it would only take five turns to complete (if we worked the mines instead of the clams), and that Stonehenge hasn't even been built yet, I'd be surprised if we missed out.

Obviously, based on my contribution, I'm a bit opposite from Winston playing more for the medium-term than the immediate short term. I figured our land is not great, so it is best to try to get the most out of it that we can. I also think the hammers available to the settling-on-the-plains-hill city shouldn't be discounted.

I figured our land is not great, so lets make the best of it in the short term, and go steal someone else's land as soon as we're in a reasonable position to do so.

Oh, and it's a minor point, but in my estimation the hammers from whipping off the clams comfortably outweigh those from settling on the plains hill. Edit: In the short term, anyway.

 

[Rameau's Nephew]

I agree with fh that the GLH is a top priority. Thus, I probably like Winston's and rolo's submissions best. The caveats with each being rolo's lack of barb defense, and Winston's city placement. (Personally, I'm OK with missing the Gems site, and Akkad is in decent location as far as I'm concerned, but I agree with ranion on Dur-whatever's spot.) I also consider Bleys' save to be a strong possibility. I'd probably put it in first if the GLH were the wonder he had half-done, but I'm concerned that the time put into the GW will cost us the (IMO) more useful Wonder.

 

[Rameau's Nephew]

By the way, I'll probably miss the next round. Gettin' married this weekend. The honeymoon isn't going to start until the following week, but the wife probably has other plans for my free time between now and then.


(Edit: Apologies for the double-post. I intended to add the above as an edit to my first post, but had a brain fart and typed in the quick reply area instead of the edit area.)

 

[futurehermit]

Congrats on the wedding

 

[futurehermit]

I just wanted to say that I think with Dave's submission discounted because of its greatness that the decision-making becomes much more interesting I like it a lot because we get to see different decision making with pros and cons to each. That is what we set out to do and I like what we've come back to here

 

[futurehermit]

I figured our land is not great, so lets make the best of it in the short term, and go steal someone else's land as soon as we're in a reasonable position to do so

The problem for me is this: How do we take over an opponent in the shortterm with: no copper, no horses, and iron-working unresearched? We had some players who tried but I think it proves too costly. However, we have ivory so after hbr and construction we can do a lot of damage. That is why I chose to play more for the mid-term

 

[Winston Hughes]

I just wanted to say that I think with Dave's submission discounted because of its greatness that the decision-making becomes much more interesting I like it a lot because we get to see different decision making with pros and cons to each. That is what we set out to do and I like what we've come back to here

I couldn't agree more. I am slightly concerned about the number of saves we'll have for the next round, though, what with everyone leading such full and interesting lives.

While I'm on the subject...

Gettin' married this weekend. The honeymoon isn't going to start until the following week, but the wife probably has other plans for my free time between now and then.

Congratulations! You must pass on our regards to the future Rameau's Niece in Law.

 

[Bleys]

I am a little surprised, however, that no-one else went for my Akkad spot.

I thought about it, but then decided that I would need that wheat to feed an inland city if a resource pops near there (and Iron actually does).

While I am not "unhappy" with my save, I dont think its the best of the non-Dave saves. I like Winstons better, to be honest, and a couple others are easily as strong.

A few more comments, some about my choice of the GW, plus some strat thoughts.

1. This map is going to be hard to "settle-fogbust", and there is just too much of it to unit-fogbust as well. There are many huge areas where there is not enough food to support a real city, but you KNOW the Barbs will plant cities there. This will lead to many many roaming barb units. I have successfully used the GW as a passive-offensive weapon in the past. Barbs go by my land, I pick off a few for some XP, then laugh as they crush new cities of my opponents. See the Ramesses Nobles Club game for a perfect example. Every city Zara settled by me was crushed by barbs.

2. Spy points are going to be nice with so many AIs closeby. None of the AIs are close enough to "rush" IMHO, but they are close enough for a Cat-Sword or even Treb-Mace assault. Thats going to happen post-Alpha, so Spys can revolt potential targets for us. Also, all this talk about our first target, and no one has mentioned Darius? I found him, he is around the Gulf of Mexico (sort of, if you look at that round harbor-gulf to the SW), and I think HE is a likely first target. Need to keep him from Horses though.

3. This is not a "rich" map either, few strong commerce tiles other than the Jungle. I actually interuppted the GW multiple times for units, on the theory that the gold from failing would allow me to deficit-tech for a while.

Sure, I could have put those hammers into another settler, and would have, to be honest, had the Barbs not settled to the East where they did (my bad, poor fogbusting on my own signs, grr, horrid mistake), but once that city appeared, I immediately thought "get the gems, get IW, hope for Iron, take out Barbs".

BTW, after checking other saves, and seeing where Toku put his gem city, I checked my save again, and moved the Wood II warrrior toward Toku. Sure enough, he has an Archer-Settler pair 1 NW of the gems, and will likely settle it IBT.

Spoiler Toku Settler pic :

Now, we can out-culture him there easily, and it will be worth keeping eventually, clams, shared gems, and cows up there, so its not a big deal, but its there. Actually might be a plus, since I think we will culture-push right up next to his city, and can launch from our own borders directly.

Anyway, to wrap it up, I vote Winston, but it was NOT an easy vote. I like schwartz's eastern cities (right on my signs, LOL, we think a lot alike, man, I notice that in our SGs), and I like the GLH push saves as well. For the record, my intention was to go STRAIGHT into the GLH after the GW, and chop-whip overflow it out. That is how I play most of my openings. Start a Wonder in my high-food cap, and whip units into it, using workers and settlers to stall growth as needed. I HATE not working all my best tiles, and will rarely come off those 5F clams, even if it means letting a whole settler build while whip-anger fades.

 

[Winston Hughes]

The problem for me is this: How do we take over an opponent in the shortterm with: no copper, no horses, and iron-working unresearched? We had some players who tried but I think it proves too costly. However, we have ivory so after hbr and construction we can do a lot of damage. That is why I chose to play more for the mid-term

My idea was to get to that point sooner, hence skipping Mysticism and waiting to whip Libraries for the border pops, while building the GLh to increase the tech-rate.

Whichever approach is better, it certainly makes for an interesting comparison.