Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
Ugh. I will see if I can somehow get my round played by tomorrow... I will edit and update the bullpen thread to include this in the list of games.
Monarchist Cookbook Game 3, Hammurabi of Babylon!
- Thread starter Bleys
- Start date
Just looked at TMIT's save. 
A faux-quechua rush on HC is amusing enough, but the lunatic audacity of trying it at that distance...
And the state of your economy?! 88 turns to Fishing!!!
A faux-quechua rush on HC is amusing enough, but the lunatic audacity of trying it at that distance...
And the state of your economy?! 88 turns to Fishing!!!
ranion
Chieftain
Spoiler :
not the best round, i have some things i did 'wrong' but i don't think its a bad round, however i'll let you all be the judges of that.
huerfanista
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2006
- Messages
- 1,276
OK, I found a save from 1525 BC, which I played until 1475 BC (you'll see why):
Spoiler :
) Given that I was starting with 2 work boats, I decided to tech hunting/archery before mining/bronze because I wouldn't get the worker out until around the time BW would probably finish, and there were no un-treed hills to mine.
. We're going to 3-pop whip that library anyway.
plains hills should be left unchopped if possible, the grass hills will be mined. I envision the settler going 2E 1N of the wheat, so the city is coastal, can share one of the clams, and grab both jumbos.
He'll take peace, obviously.
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
Uhm okay I have played my first round. I would've been a lot more fond of it could I play 500 more years since I am in the middle of a gambit which can very easily fail. To find out which gambit, read on....
Spoiler Report :
!futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
Diamondeye:
With so much available production, and an aggressive/organized leader, I am not sure I would support going after a cultural victory. It is a viable option, to be sure, but I just don't know that that would be leveraging what we have available to us really.
I think we can utilize our ivory
to take out two civs during the classical era. From there we should have enough land to tech peacefully or, preferably, to continue the war machine.
With so much available production, and an aggressive/organized leader, I am not sure I would support going after a cultural victory. It is a viable option, to be sure, but I just don't know that that would be leveraging what we have available to us really.
I think we can utilize our ivory
Spoiler :
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
Good thinking FutureHermit. I knew from head on that I would not be providing the best early-war save, so I tried something else. After looking at some of the other rounds, I must agree that the potential in the situation is highly weighted at early warfare...
Monsterzuma
the sly one
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2008
- Messages
- 2,984
My vote is with Dave's start aswell. Having early control of the gems town is a major boon to the game, and unlike me he isn't suffering from any awkward defenselessness from the barbarians.
Those gems should generate a tidy profit when mined... 3*6c is comparable to 2 1/2 cities running scientists full time. With that kind of money to pay armies with, the presence of Iron AND the decent production capabilities of our empire I'd say the conditions are perfect for an early rush. And given that we are pinned in between of a notorious "turtle style" defender who won't let us scout his lands AND an extremely potent financial wonder-hogging rival I'd say there isn't much of a contest as to who the target will be. Tech to writing, sign open borders, send in some warriors/scouts to take a peek, work out the boring steps, incur profit, etc, etc. Or skip those steps and hope we sacrifice more virgins to the gods than they do.
Those gems should generate a tidy profit when mined... 3*6c is comparable to 2 1/2 cities running scientists full time. With that kind of money to pay armies with, the presence of Iron AND the decent production capabilities of our empire I'd say the conditions are perfect for an early rush. And given that we are pinned in between of a notorious "turtle style" defender who won't let us scout his lands AND an extremely potent financial wonder-hogging rival I'd say there isn't much of a contest as to who the target will be. Tech to writing, sign open borders, send in some warriors/scouts to take a peek, work out the boring steps, incur profit, etc, etc. Or skip those steps and hope we sacrifice more virgins to the gods than they do.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
I think, especially with Dave's save, that we are more in line for attacking Toku first. Of course he is a harder target and will get considerably weaker over time, which would normally make HC the more likely target because he will be softer and will grow stronger over time. But our empire is laid out toward Toku... I guess we could just make sure we have a large enough army when we attack the first time, but I don't think we could our reinforcements to arrive that early. I guess we would have to build at least 1 city to the SE or take a barb one if it is there (depending on whether it is a good location or not we may need to raze...), which would help with the reinforcements.
Either way, I think HC and Toku both have to go down in the classical/early medieval era and then from there we could reassess things.
Either way, I think HC and Toku both have to go down in the classical/early medieval era and then from there we could reassess things.
ranion
Chieftain
something about toku and his land, there are alot of nice resources up there... and by that i mean gems and gold, snatching up his territory would provide a fairly substantial boost in spite of requiring a number of extra units to overcome his combat bonuses. I don't think it should come as any surprise that Dave's save looks best.
Having looked at the saves posted thus far, I want to say well done to all contributors. 
Every save has a lot going for it (sheer comedy value in TMIT's case), and I'm finding it very difficult to decide which is best.
Obviously, if we want to choose the absolute strongest one, we should look no further than Dave's contribution.
But, given that we asked Sis to find a map that would present a lasting challenge, and that vale has been told his saves won't be considered because he trounced the last MC, it would seem a little silly to take our crucial first round from a such a master of the game.
Also, trying to decide which of the non-Dave options is strongest has forced me to look much more closely at where they might be taken; at the possibilities each player has opened up for the future.
This is one of the best things about the format, imo, and it'd be a shame if it was rendered academic every time a top player decided to submit a save.
I've already learned some valuable lessons from looking at his save, but if Dave is going to continue playing along with us (which would be fantastic), I think there'll be much more educational value in watching him deal with our less-than-ideal foundations, rather than us taking advantage of his superior play.
Come to think of it, what I'd really love to see is Dave taking a shot at TMIT's save.
Every save has a lot going for it (sheer comedy value in TMIT's case), and I'm finding it very difficult to decide which is best.
Obviously, if we want to choose the absolute strongest one, we should look no further than Dave's contribution.
But, given that we asked Sis to find a map that would present a lasting challenge, and that vale has been told his saves won't be considered because he trounced the last MC, it would seem a little silly to take our crucial first round from a such a master of the game.
Also, trying to decide which of the non-Dave options is strongest has forced me to look much more closely at where they might be taken; at the possibilities each player has opened up for the future.
This is one of the best things about the format, imo, and it'd be a shame if it was rendered academic every time a top player decided to submit a save.
I've already learned some valuable lessons from looking at his save, but if Dave is going to continue playing along with us (which would be fantastic), I think there'll be much more educational value in watching him deal with our less-than-ideal foundations, rather than us taking advantage of his superior play.
Come to think of it, what I'd really love to see is Dave taking a shot at TMIT's save.
Monsterzuma
the sly one
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2008
- Messages
- 2,984
FutureHermit said:
It is still an option to attack Tokugawa. Personally I am very reluctant to, though. It's particularly the lack of pre-war scouting that puts me off. Who knows what we'll end up smacking ourselves into; protective archers and agressive axes on hills? And what if we end up with a bunch of poor plains/hills heavy city sites that we're better off without? Consider the fact that we're on a tectonic style map: hill clusters abound. Would you trust the AI to pick out city sites for you on a map like this? That's the kind of question we have to ask ourselves when we decide wether or not war with Toku is an option.
r_rolo1
King of myself
From what I remember of my game ( [shameless selfpromo mode] it looks that I did a more extensive job on scouting than the vast majority of the posted saves [/shameless selfpromo mode] ) none of the Toku cities in there were in a hill, but the mountains funneled attacks pretty badly.
I'm not son keen to the idea of rushing Toku as well....
I'm not son keen to the idea of rushing Toku as well....
ranion
Chieftain
Having looked at the saves posted thus far, I want to say well done to all contributors.
Every save has a lot going for it (sheer comedy value in TMIT's case), and I'm finding it very difficult to decide which is best.
Obviously, if we want to choose the absolute strongest one, we should look no further than Dave's contribution.
But, given that we asked Sis to find a map that would present a lasting challenge, and that vale has been told his saves won't be considered because he trounced the last MC, it would seem a little silly to take our crucial first round from a such a master of the game.
Also, trying to decide which of the non-Dave options is strongest has forced me to look much more closely at where they might be taken; at the possibilities each player has opened up for the future.
This is one of the best things about the format, imo, and it'd be a shame if it was rendered academic every time a top player decided to submit a save.
I've already learned some valuable lessons from looking at his save, but if Dave is going to continue playing along with us (which would be fantastic), I think there'll be much more educational value in watching him deal with our less-than-ideal foundations, rather than us taking advantage of his superior play.
Come to think of it, what I'd really love to see is Dave taking a shot at TMIT's save.
this certainly raises a good point. If the idea of the format is to try and force us to learn better play, then always leaping from a save that is a clear winner doesn't make much sense because we'll just coast along on the 'leavings' of players better than us. At the risk of delving into discussion thats better left for the bullpen thread, maybe we need to institute a policy of dropping the best and worsts saves and picking from the rest. Since this round of the monarchist cookbook seems to have picked up a large number of new followers, myself included (i've played out a few rounds from some of the previous games, but never posted one) there is almost a plethora of saves to choose from and losing one or two probably wouldn't hurt...
at any rate, if we're looking for a non Dave save, i think Bleys with his settler poised to settle a city at the gems is probably a good save to consider, however i think we need to start building the comparison tables for this round to know for sure where everyone stands.
Edit:
Regarding the next course of action discussion, why is everyone so bent on rushing? our 'nearest' neighbor is toku who would be horrendously difficult to rush. our next nearest neighbor (or equidistant in most saves) is hc and he's not particularly near by. even with settling the gems city there is no reason that its set up for an immediate war. sure, its an aggressive city site, but its one that has longterm economic benefits that far outweigh the cost of settling it early, and by no means guarantees war immediately.
Unfortunately OTAKU, who did those awesome tables for us before, isn't around right now. If I get time later on tonight, I'll could try to do a quick summary of the key details. Just don't expect anything flashy or comprehensive.
Before I do that, though, I'd like to know for sure whether or not we're going to use Dave's start. I don't mind spending the time doing some stats if helps aid a decision, but I can't be arsed if it's just for show.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
I don't think we should rush Toku, but an army of catapults, elephants, and bowmen can trounce whatever opposition we run into. Of course, attacking HC is a viable option as well, especially depending on the save we pick.
I do think it would be worthwhile to put some thought/assessment into which is the best save, especially in this first/crucial round. What do the different saves gives us in both tangibles (e.g., production/turn, beakers/turn, etc.) and intangibles (e.g., plans of action, strategic possibilities)?
I do think it would be worthwhile to put some thought/assessment into which is the best save, especially in this first/crucial round. What do the different saves gives us in both tangibles (e.g., production/turn, beakers/turn, etc.) and intangibles (e.g., plans of action, strategic possibilities)?
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,995
Having looked at the saves posted thus far, I want to say well done to all contributors.
Every save has a lot going for it (sheer comedy value in TMIT's case), and I'm finding it very difficult to decide which is best.
Obviously, if we want to choose the absolute strongest one, we should look no further than Dave's contribution.
But, given that we asked Sis to find a map that would present a lasting challenge, and that vale has been told his saves won't be considered because he trounced the last MC, it would seem a little silly to take our crucial first round from a such a master of the game.
Also, trying to decide which of the non-Dave options is strongest has forced me to look much more closely at where they might be taken; at the possibilities each player has opened up for the future.
This is one of the best things about the format, imo, and it'd be a shame if it was rendered academic every time a top player decided to submit a save.
I've already learned some valuable lessons from looking at his save, but if Dave is going to continue playing along with us (which would be fantastic), I think there'll be much more educational value in watching him deal with our less-than-ideal foundations, rather than us taking advantage of his superior play.
Come to think of it, what I'd really love to see is Dave taking a shot at TMIT's save.
. I'd feel bad for him. I don't have archery and I'm strung out. There's a barb city between my 2 cities, and the AI will likely capture it long before that position can field anything but warriors. Stopping barb axes with warriors is good times .Go go attacko! IMO archer rushes are viable at this level and emperor (I've done them successfully multiple times with an actually DECENT aftermath), but warrior rushes need too many units outside of culture borders, badly draining tech. They're not hammer-efficient for attacking archers at all, unless you're using Inca.
Cover archers with protective, on the other hand, are a real possibility. Particularly for aggressive toku and his cheap barracks.
Edit: Aggressive CR swords can rush protective pretty decently. There's no need to hold off on toku, although a case could certainly be made for peaceful expansion till there's no room for that, THEN knocking heads.
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
I will be absent from tomorrow and ten days forth, so don't expect a 2nd save submission for me. I also think we should consider ruling out Daves save (no offence, merely because it is far above Monarch level), and I'd be glad to see some statistics on saves.
ranion
Chieftain
i'll take a look and see what i can do re: statistics, but i cant promise much of anything, at least not until later tonight.
edit: i just grabbed all the saves so i can look at them later, and we have 12 submissions for this round (including dave), so there is plenty to choose from... but its going to be a pain to sort them all.
edit: i just grabbed all the saves so i can look at them later, and we have 12 submissions for this round (including dave), so there is plenty to choose from... but its going to be a pain to sort them all.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
- Messages
- 5,724
I am moving next week and won't have internet for a few days in there and will be packing/unpacking etc. so I doubt very much that I will have a 2nd save submission unless a decision is reached on a save and I can get some time to play this weekend, which could happen.
Similar threads
