[NFP] Monopolies and Corporations Game Mode Discussion Thread

[Lord Lakely]

I tried Russia with this. Legit won it before I got Cossacks.

Although that may also be the result of the AI not building a single theatre square, so i got every GWAM out there.

 

[Francel]

I have seen “economic victory” popping up lately, and I’m wondering, what might an economic victory entail? Personally I am intrigued, but am unsure how it would work. Amass 100,000 gold? Control every resource type?

Also, one of the complaints I have seen for the new mode is lack of downside to industries/corporations. Without a dramatic overhaul, are there any tweaks that could remedy this concern? Maybe require 3 builder charges instead of 1 to make an industry? Needing the great merchant to make a corporation isn’t trivial imo. You need either hubs or else other large sources of gold and/or faith to patronize, plus you lose the great person perk.

 

[InsidiousMage]

I have seen “economic victory” popping up lately, and I’m wondering, what might an economic victory entail? Personally I am intrigued, but am unsure how it would work. Amass 100,000 gold? Control every resource type?

Not a designer but I figure it would be something like an econ domination mode with buyouts and what not. Corporations would need a rework, like you can found a corporation for every certain numbers of CH/Harbors and they provide a bonus based on how many shares you own. Shares can then be bought at scaling costs without input of the civ that owns the Corporation.

You could also emphasize resources for power consumption so players have to use power. Old World had a market mechanic were you sell resources into a shared pool which then could be bough by other players without having to make direct trade deals. Have some incentives for buying and selling resources into how corporations function, like getting more resources for owning more shares or something.

A very rough sketch of an idea but basically, you own a certain percentage of all corporations, possibly combined with enough control of the resources used for power (either through buying or conquest), that all other civs are dependent on your economy. No idea how hard this would be programed and designed though.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I have seen “economic victory” popping up lately, and I’m wondering, what might an economic victory entail? Personally I am intrigued, but am unsure how it would work. Amass 100,000 gold? Control every resource type?

Under the current circumstances (that is, not develop everything from scratch), I would imagine a reutilization of "Domestic Tourism vs. International Tourism" mechanics into "Domestic Production vs. International Dumping".

Similar to Cultural Victory, every civ will have a pool of consumers, and some kinds of "product generation" tied to CH, Harbor, luxuries, trade routes, Great Merchants, Gold-based projects, specific Wonder only unlocked by reaching X gold per turn, Corporations and Monopolies, etc.

The pool of consumers will enjoy their own Products (cf. Great Works) in the beginning, while every civ's Gold-generating Districts, Products, Luxuries, Corporations, Monopolies, etc. can generate Economical Pressure (cf. Tourism Pressure) towards everyone else's consumer pool. If one can flood all these consumer markets with their own products, then it is an "economic" win.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I'm actually more interested in fewer victory conditions, one eventually. One unified victory roughly based on the current historic moment s. Alpha centuari spaceship, or taking a capital, or founding a megacorp, would all contribute to overall "greatness."

 

[InsidiousMage]

I'm actually more interested in fewer victory conditions, one eventually. One unified victory roughly based on the current historic moment s. Alpha centuari spaceship, or taking a capital, or founding a megacorp, would all contribute to overall "greatness."

Set the turn limit to 300, turn off all other victory types except Score and that's exactly what you want.

 

[8housesofelixir]

I'm actually more interested in fewer victory conditions, one eventually. One unified victory roughly based on the current historic moment s. Alpha centuari spaceship, or taking a capital, or founding a megacorp, would all contribute to overall "greatness."

Humankind's Fame system does work like this, a.k.a. "What if Era Score system actually works instead of merely favoring National Park Spammers and Religious Warmongers".

 

[Aurelesk]

I am convinced that the formula for Tourism is broken. In a sense that the formula doesn't do what the developer intended. But I can't figure it out how it work. Has anyone found it? I am sorry if someone has posted: I missed the message (send me a link if so!). It seems to follow this formula:
[Tourism boost] = 5% × [Number of enemy Civilization not exploiting the ressource] × [Number of Monopolies] × [modifier]

And that [modifier], I believe it seems to be the number of copy of the "first" monopoly in your civilization, and first seems to be quite hasardous when you don't have a monopoly on the Industry / Corporation in your Capital.

In a game, I have all monopolies at 100%:

• Continent #1: 4 types of luxuries with 9 available.
• Continent #2: 4 types of luxuries with 4 available.
  
• Continent #3: 4 types of luxuries with 4 available.
  
• Sea: 2 types of luxuries with 14 available.
• In total: I have 14 monopolies, and 14 Corporations.

Currently, my [Tourist boost] = +1890%, which is 5% × 3 × 14 × 9, so [modifier] = 9. If I take out a civilization, it drops to +1260%, which is 5% × 2 × 14 × 9. Why [modifier] = 9? I believe it is the Number of Copy of the Luxury Ressource of the Corporation from my Capital. Which makes no sense at all why it should be this way.
If I remove any improvement as long it not the Olives (Capital corporation) nor loosing the monopoly, I stay at +1890%. If I removed 1, 2 or 3 Olives, then the [Tourist boost] fall to +1680%, +1560% and +1440%. At 5/9 Olives, I do not have the Monopoly anymore, and fall to +780% (so 15% × 13 × 4). Why the [modifier] = 4 and not 5? I guess it jump to the next monopoly, which seems to be 4.

If I get the formula right, it is really really wrong:

• The 5% shouldn't increase with the number of civilization. +25% from Open Borders isn't +250% when your are playing against 10 civilizations. It means that more players are around, more quickly you are going to win the Tourism victory.
• I think the [modifier] was intended to weight the 5% down, depending how muany of the luxuries you own. But I guess it has a typo in it and instead of being [number of copy]/[total amount], it is just [number of copy]. Plus it should weight every monopolies one by one, not take one monopoly at random and apply the "weighting" to all.

I guess they will change the 5% × [Number of enemy Civilization] to 25%, and correct the formula so the weighting will no multiply your Tourism to a crazy amount. 25% is still huge: if you control one continent and all land luxuries, then you have +100% (as long you improved all luxuries). Following that correction, the +1890% from that game will be +350% instead, which is fair since I control all luxury ressources in the world and the game is over a long time ago.


The gold per turn is 25 per monopoly, weighted by the percentage you own, and rounded to the closest 5.


Edit: How 'Magnificent Catherine' is better in this mode? Sure, she gets Culture from improved luxury ressources, but her Project does not enjoy neither positive nor negative tourism modifier. It is a flat 50 Tourism per excess luxuries.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Set the turn limit to 300, turn off all other victory types accept Score and that's exactly what you want.

I mean not really though

 

[InsidiousMage]

I mean not really though

How so? I mean fundamentally what you want is a game where you win when you reach a certain "score" which is like 90% the same thing as just lowering the turn limit to a reasonable number. I'm not opposed to that kind of victory but they are kind of fundamentally the same, get a certain number of "points" to win.

Personally, getting rid of the various win conditions would lead to a very boring game with no reason to actually have different civs that specialize in different things because those difference wouldn't change how you win the game.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm actually more interested in fewer victory conditions, one eventually. One unified victory roughly based on the current historic moment s. Alpha centuari spaceship, or taking a capital, or founding a megacorp, would all contribute to overall "greatness."

Don't forget converting the world to fund and watch your megachurch.

 

[Silmarillion]

Just had a moment of genuine shock stemming from this new Game Mode, and had to share it here (have not read the entire thread, so, might be normal, sorry).

First time playin' with this thing enabled. Not sure what to expect, Patch Notes Info on it is quite unclear. At some point, I get the option to put a new improvement on a Luxury, with nice yields, cool.

All proceeds as normal, I meet everyone else in the world, Renaissance Era begins. Very soon, a notice pops up that I became dominant in Tourism over another civ. I don't worry about it too much, they're probably one tiny city in the middle of nowhere, so that might make sense.

A few turns later, I become dominant in Tourism over two other civs. Now I become truly baffled, since I haven't even built ONE Theater Square yet. I casually check my Tourism Numbers... WHAT My Wonders and Heroic Relics have about 50 to 60 Tourists already, which I never even get in my other games in the Atomic Era! And then I mouse over my Tourist Percentages with the other civs... and find my answer Oh. I seem to have a one-thousand percent multiplier with everyone due to monopolies (which I apparently have), and am gonna win in 16 Turns (on Marathon).

Well, that game is over a couple eras earlier than I had wanted. Great. The only good news is that I checked the achievements, and I will have all of them relating to this broken nonsense when the game is over, so I can thankfully deactivate it in all my future games now and never look back. Wow.

 

[AntSou]

@Silmarillion That's pretty much been the main topic of this thread. It's probably broken and we're expecting they'll fix it.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

About alternate Victories & specific control over any Victory conditions or calibrated modifiers that lead to complex re-balance of the ruleset -- which really is not far from a valid solution to the Tourism/Culture loophole created by this new Mode.. there are actual mods (at least a dozen) that already tried such fine-tuning devices.

Sooooo.. just to name a few;

1) Sejick's Alternate Score Victory // https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1277839848
2) p0kiehl's Extended Eras // https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2123444827
3) Infixo's RealTechTree --or-- RealStrategy(AI) // https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=871465857
4) ETC...

It wouldn't take much work to adapt some of the above Logic or create whatever hybrid code into a dedicated gimmick that would fix those Early-Culture-Win problems, AFAIC.

I'm not a "skilled" enough Modder (( Heck i just made ONE very small QoL-UI trick with GSco_R_ow // https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1687314303 )) to attempt such project.. but there's surely someone out there interested by such a challenge that could.

 

[Stringer1313]

If you aren't inclined to turn cultural victory off to play this mode, I suggest setting resources to "rare." This actually made it impossible for me to get a monopoly until way in the late game where I waged a whole war just to get one more amber. So the benefits of the monopoly I really had to fight to earn. And the AI civs also improved their luxuries (I think not till late in the game) and one had a monopoly of their own. This made the game more enjoyable for me.

I also agree with the other poster that some improvements, like industries, should require more than one build charge. The ski resort spam always felt a little off to me (yes, I know, i suppose it's no more weird than spamming farms but for some reason it feels different).

 

[Abaxial]

Really, there IS an economic victory. It's just that "tourism" is used as a catch-all term for all cultural influence; it's not just people turning up with their cameras. Recall how in Civ 5, as you were approaching a cultural victory, leaders would pop up complaining "our young people are buying your blue jeans". That is "tourism" but not in the sense that people are turning up at the Levis factory. There isn't really any convenient term for a "unit of cultural influence" so "tourists" has to make do. Hence the "tourism" boost from monopolies. If you are the only one with citrus, everyone will have to come to you for orange juice.

To divide off economic victory from more classical tourism would require a much more radical overhaul of game systems than could be done in a mode. Where is balance of trade? How can you do economics without involving traders? Where is protectionism? Where is currency manipulation?

 

[aieeegrunt]

Set the turn limit to 300, turn off all other victory types except Score and that's exactly what you want.

This is basically how I play now

 

[Horizons]

I'm disappointed it only affects luxuries?

Commodities like copper, iron, coal, oil should all be fiercely fought over too!

 

[bengalryan9]

How so? I mean fundamentally what you want is a game where you win when you reach a certain "score" which is like 90% the same thing as just lowering the turn limit to a reasonable number. I'm not opposed to that kind of victory but they are kind of fundamentally the same, get a certain number of "points" to win.

Personally, getting rid of the various win conditions would lead to a very boring game with no reason to actually have different civs that specialize in different things because those difference wouldn't change how you win the game.

The problem is the way score is calculated in this game stinks - it's way too heavily skewed towards conquering your neighbors and having a huge empire than it is with how well you actually play the game.

 

[InsidiousMage]

The problem is the way score is calculated in this game stinks - it's way too heavily skewed towards conquering your neighbors and having a huge empire than it is with how well you actually play the game.

I mean, the game biases towards large empires so it makes sense that the scoring would as well. Plus, there are a lot of way to "play the game well" that are mutually contradictory, just compare any two tier lists, and any scoring method biased towards certain playstyles. Not to mention that how you play game changes the higher up the difficulty levels you go.