Monty gets a bad rap

[Andrei_V]

Monty is the one who is likely to pay tribute many times during the game. You just need to keep up your military, and when it's time to upgrade your units, ask Monty for financial aid. He usually agrees. If he does not, it's a clear sign to build more units.

 

[Eggolas]

Monty is the one who is likely to pay tribute many times during the game. You just need to keep up your military, and when it's time to upgrade your units, ask Monty for financial aid. He usually agrees. If he does not, it's a clear sign to build more units.

How true! It's especially gratifying to get him to cough up 2,500 gold as tribute after having to pay him twice in the early years.

 

[ArmChairAttila]

monty sux. if you're going to play aggressively why are you founding an early religion? just go take one from a neighbour. plus, first you use axes forever cuz they have no counter and then you use maces forever cuz they have no counter. i.e., you bypass swords/jags. plus, i'm starting to be convinced that starting with hunting is inferior cuz it delays worker-stealing. so you start off with hunting and mysticism which imo suck when you want to be really aggressive. aggressive trait is obviously good, but spiritual? some people like it some don't. personally, i don't. i'd much rather have financial or organized to keep up the $$ of my empire. and then the jag just sux. it's an indefensible unit. 1 less strength, a jungle bonus when jungles give a health penalty, and no iron cost when you should be securing iron anyways since you need it for maces and knights! maybe if monty was expansive i could justify leaving some jungles around... gah, monty suxxors

I go for pyramids and monotheism then bronze working to get organized religion (Judaism) and slavery. Spiritual with these 2 civics early is a very powerful force (build and whip pyramids fast on hard levels). Early religion (priest) will help befriend one boarder with a powerful civ and makes up for the $$ (financial trait). Hunting allows a fast way to make archers which you will need for pyramids early religion. Once you have pyramids whipped switch to representation until jags come out then police state/slavery. This combination will give you twice the army size of any civ on the board. It is a late strategy but with only 3 cities I have taken on the Romans (with praetorians!!!!) and Isabella in a two front war on monarch and sacked Rome! COMBINE jags (city raider) and axes (cover/formation/shock, depending on army you are fighting). They are the most powerful combo until maces come (hell they still hold there own against maces). Like I said earlier it is likely you will lose your copper or iron in early wars due to pillaging, jag makes it so this is not so much of a issue. Most my games with Monty on Noble/Monarch are usually decided by early middle ages.

Worker stealing is over-rated and often loses to barbarians or the civ you DOWed on.

Spiritual is way under-rated. With Monty on the higher difficulty levels I switch civics constantly. For diplomacy you can pacify those civs who like there civics. It is no problem to switch to building civics for 10 turns then unit production for another 10. I find on higher difficulty levels I have to switch constantly because of threat of war, economic tweaking, or diplomatic finesse. For this reason alone spiritual is a great if not the greatest diplomatic advantage in the game which will not seriously hamper your economy.

Monty is the bomb, not for noobs though I agree.

As for the others who have Monty in there games, yea you have to decide early whether to kill him or befriend him. If I feel like a diplomatic win or space race, Monty is a great ally. As some mentioned you have to befriend him early and keep a good army of your own. This usually draws many of the political lines early which I like. You should keep him advanced too and always join his wars or give him something to fight for. I have played Elizabeth, Asoka, Washington, all of which were diplomatic/space race wins with a very powerful pit bull on my side, Monty (who never turned on me ).

 

[futurehermit]

well i wouldn't say i'm a noob, i play on emperor. you make interesting arguments. i'm not saying he's not playable, i just disagree that he's that great.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

These boards give Monty a bad rap. Monty is the ultimate warrior and diplomat IMHO. Any other Monty lovers out there? Don’t care if you like to play him or like to ally him

I started my first game recently as the Aztecs just to prove a point on another thread that the Jaguar is not the worst UU. The jaguar is actually one of the best UU because even though it has lower strength, it is also cheaper than the swordsman. AFAIK, no other UU has this trait. All other UUs have the same hammer cost as their standard units.

I didn't take any screen shots, but my game has reached to 1415 AD already and it is quite an amazing feat. It was on a continental huge map, with marathon and a tropical climate (just to see if the jungle defense makes a difference). I started out on the east coast of a large continent. My first city was surrounded by clams and fish, which I harvested fairly early to race ahead in population. I then founded hinduism, and built 2 more cities nearby. I bee-lined to iron working, unlocking the jaguar. By this time (with only 3 cities), all the other civs had me surrounded and there was no more real estate to settle (it seemed as if the game was setting me up to force me to do an early war, which I was planning anyway). I had no iron in my cultural borders, but that was ok.

Using my second city, Teotihuacan, as a production city with barracks, surrounded by mined hills, I slave rushed a horde of jaguars. After lulling the Egyptians into a false sense of security, I declared war and beelined right to their capitol. They were only defended by archers, which didn't stand a chance against jaguars that had an automatic combat I and city raider I promotion (remember those barracks?). Once I took their capitol, the rest was easy. In fact, my jaguars become even more fearsome because I kept giving them city raider promotions. This added to their natural city attack bonus. By 150 BC, I had conquered the entire Egyptian civilization and had expanded from dead last to around 3rd place. Over the next several hundred years, I built up my infrastructure, built Chichen Itza, and changed civics until I managed to get vassalage and theocracy. With that in mind, I set my sights on my other neighbor, the French.

The French were listed #1 on the board, and we had favorable relations because my religion, Hinduism, had spread far and wide, and I had the Kashi Vishwanath. Nevertheless, I put the smack down. Despite it being the middle ages (c. 1200 AD), I recycled the jaguars for yet another rush attack, the only difference now was that I could promote them out of gate to city raider II. I also had catapults. Even though the French defended with longbows, it was a cinch, so long as I kept churning out jaguars. I rarely even attacked with suicide catapults, as I needed to keep up the advance. I moved so quickly and relentlessly that I had consumed the entire French Empire in 200 years. All using jaguars and catapults. I dropped the French from #1 to dead last and became #1 instead. I also managed to capture the Pyramids, Colossus, and the Great Library, and the holy city of Islam. I was also able to keep up in tech, because I moved my forces so fast that the French were rarely able to pillage.

This should prove that the jaguar is one of the most awesome units, and when used with proper effect (barracks, promotions with city raider, etc), can be absolutely devastating.

 

[Disco Bandit]

Let me preface this post by saying I rarely play as Montezuma -- I typically play a civ that has Financial, Organized, or Spiritual -- I find aggressive not to my liking.

One of the earlier posts in the thread mentioned that "Jags suck, but so do Panzers, so it's ok." That seems a counter-intuitive argument -- just because another civilization's UU sucks, you're going to use one that doesn't suck quite as much? Seems rather silly.

I think Jags can be used very effectively. They are extremely useful if you find yourself without metals. I frequently play overcrowded maps -- say, a small map with 10 civilizations (small maps because my computer is not the best, can't handle larger maps very well.). With 5 people on a small continent it can be hard to get metal unless you start with one very close to you.

However, I do find swordsman to be more effective if you do have metals. Complementing an early axe rush with some later swordsman can be very effective -- let the swords take care of archers and the axemen take care of melee.

To cut short a rather lengthy post (from me at least), Montezuma is a little underrrated -- if you use his abilities (i.e. his traits and UU) to their fullest with their uses in mind from the beginning, he can quickly dominate. I simply find that with a little more strategy, other civiilizations can dominate just as quickly and have traits which can more easliy handle the large amount of cities you acquire. Financial and Organized can make a huge empire very manageable.

Edit: Forgot to touch on Montezuma as an ally/enemy. If Monty starts right next to me, I normally take him out immediately -- he typically builds a boatload of troops that can be annoying to deal with later. Plus, I like to take his capital as A. he typically founds a religion there, and B. enemy capitals often have a lot of resources. However, if he starts on the other end of the continent from me or even on the other continent, I usually befriend him as he can become a useful and powerful ally.

 

[ArmChairAttila]

It is a matter of game taste, some like large empires with 12+ cities. I cannot stand that much micro, I like to micro my armies not my cities. Some others like it the other way around or both and that is perfectly fine. I setup 3 core cities, conquer 5 to 7 more. That’s about all the cities I want. Monty is not setup to be a huge empire that is for Washington. Monty is not setup for tech lead either, I am perfectly fine with being third or fourth in tech. The only time I want a tech lead is for assembly line and pentagon. I will switch to cast system and pump scientist in all my cites, also save a lot of gold for 100% research all for assembly line. I also save engineers for this wonder and will not trade in prerequisite techs for it. After my core 8 cities I raze every city to the ground except religious centers and capitols. Razing everything (including roads, this slows down new AI settlements) brings in so much gold that my science and unit upgrades explode during war against a well developed empire. I will let the AI fill in the lose areas with cities. If I need to connect those far off conquest, well then I will do what the Aztecs do best, go to war and connect them. Seriously with the Aztecs I have never built more than 2 settlers. By the time renaissance comes around I have razed almost half the major cities on the map. Yea a bunch of little cities popped up in there place, but who cares they do not compare to my core and conquest cities.

It is all to game style and I prefer to micro and build a powerful army and very experienced elite units over 25 cities.

 

[realitytvfreak]

I honestly don't like playing as the Aztecs. Mainly because the UU Jaguar has a strength of 5 instead of the Swordsman's strength of 6. Its like replacing a unit with a weaker version. Plus, I cut almost all my forests and jungles for the shields and then I usually build cottages once I can. However, its same time I can build a Jaguar, so I also have to forget about the jungle defense bonus. Same reason I never give my units Woodsman. Playing as another civ, if your existing borders don't have metals build a scout to find some, a settler, and a worker. When you find a metal build a city next to the metal so it is in your territory, and have the worker connect the new city to your empire, build a mine and connect the metal. If the metal, is in rival try to find a resource you don't need and trade it for the metal. Just remember do not declare war on that civ until you either find your source of metal or you research gunpowder. If its in barbarian territory, bring in a few archers and attack the barbarian city as they're easy to capture.

 

[binhthuy71]

I like having Monty in a game because you can count on him. You can count on him to attack if your Power is less than his but you can also count on him in war if he's allied with you.

As for the Jaguar, no need for Iron and fewer hammers to build means that when playing as Monty I can usually get there "firstest with the mostest."

Besides, Monty is the only Leader with a sneer - ya' gotta love that.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Yeah he looks like a reject from a "Twisted Sister/Village People" tribute band audition

 

[djjeffmaddox]

Montezuma is one of my favorites, actually... I just like the militant religious nut strategy.

 

[naterator]

i like monty's trait combo and starting techs. i think i'm really going to like the sacrificial altar (-50% pop rush unhappiness). i hate the jaguar with a passion. sometimes i build one and fortify him in an interior city forever, to remind me of my civ's aztec heritage. for war, i substitute them with city raider axemen.

 

[tadster]

I hate the bastard. I cringe whenever he's in my games (which seems like all of them). I adopt an 'exterminate with extreme prejudice' policy when dealing with him.

Excellently said! I totally agree. If in my initial scouting run I find Monty, I immediately begin to develop plans to cripple him with intent to eventually destroy. If I am unable to muster the necessary military might (for instance, I'm Ghandi), then I make friends with other civs (read: do my best to manipulate them to do my bidding!) and we crush Monty together.

Just because we both like to "exterminate with extreme prejudice" doesn't mean that Monty isn't an awesome leader. He adds lots of excitement (or sheer terror). He gives an otherwise boring scenario some zing. Like BBQ sauce.

 

[Sisiutil]

Excellently said! I totally agree. If in my initial scouting run I find Monty, I immediately begin to develop plans to cripple him with intent to eventually destroy. If I am unable to muster the necessary military might (for instance, I'm Ghandi), then I make friends with other civs (read: do my best to manipulate them to do my bidding!) and we crush Monty together.

Just because we both like to "exterminate with extreme prejudice" doesn't mean that Monty isn't an awesome leader. He adds lots of excitement (or sheer terror). He gives an otherwise boring scenario some zing. Like BBQ sauce.

Or jalpeno peppers? Looking for a culturally appropriate metaphor...

Just because you're playing as Gandhi doesn't mean you can't kick some tail. Find copper, build Axemen, and Tenochtitlan is your oyster.

 

[El Koeno]

Monty can be really cool to have around. I had him as my primary ally one game and my only problem was the "you've traded with our worst enemy" diplo penalty with all other civs who had met Monty. I think he's a nice guy at heart, he's just had a troubled youth and is misunderstood.

 

[wioneo]

And he likes slaughtering his own people. Montezuma's greatest advantage, as I think, was a VERY early Jaguar rush. If you get warlords, he won't be able to do this as effectively anymore.

 

[El Koeno]

And he likes slaughtering his own people. Montezuma's greatest advantage, as I think, was a VERY early Jaguar rush. If you get warlords, he won't be able to do this as effectively anymore.

I'm not quite sure how monty's ability to do anything at all gets hurt in Warlords, could you please explain?

 

[Watiggi]

Monty is going to be great in Warlords. His UB will help wonders with managing the large empire he will end up with from Jaguar rushing.

...Despite it being the middle ages (c. 1200 AD), I recycled the jaguars for yet another rush attack, the only difference now was that I could promote them out of gate to city raider II. I also had catapults. Even though the French defended with longbows, it was a cinch, so long as I kept churning out jaguars. I rarely even attacked with suicide catapults, as I needed to keep up the advance. I moved so quickly and relentlessly that I had consumed the entire French Empire in 200 years. All using jaguars and catapults...

If the Praetorians are the giants in the game, then the Jaguars are the ants in the game. Their ability to swarm is what makes them powerful. If you can swarm and still do damage, then it doesn't matter what their strength is.

Something people may not realise with the Jaguar: Because they are strength to strength weaker, and because it is the Jaguar strategy to mass produce them (like ants), they tend to attack with lower odds while the player doesn't really care as to whether they live or not. As such, they clock up a lot of experience.

@Nanocyborgasm: Something else I do is give them Combat promotions instead of City Raider promotions. Believe it or not, the odds aren't much different (at least Combat I, City Raider I vs Combat I & II isn't much different) and it also gives access to other promotions. Give it a go. Give them Combat promotions instead. Also, a Combat IV Jaguar has a strength of 7 where a fresh Axemen will have a strength of 7.2 against a Jaguar - and it only requires 10 xp for a Jaguar to have Combat IV! If you give them Combat promotions instead of City Raider promotions, they'll become actually strong instead of just being strong in certain circumstances like city attack. It works great

Watiggi