Monty Island (Deity Isolation)
- Thread starter krikav
- Start date
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
This is lean, indeed, and obviously well managed. Maybe it was too lean.
You have 2 settlers for 5 city spots. I don't care much about Agri and AH but I don't think we can skip Pottery. Taking the Granary hits asap would make it a lot easier to complete the settling. The first two cities have 20 food surplus combined. Your 3rd has 10F surplus as well. Skipping Pottery basically delays those Granaries by 20 turns.
Caste border pops are great but perhaps the tech is premature, here ?
There's also some tension between :
- GLH and controlled expansion ;
- Monotheism and less cities.
We have trade routes and a lot of infra to set up. I think production (hence : Garnaries) >>> everything else.
On Caste itself. Krikav went the same route. I understand the appeal. I'm not 100% sure it's better than Monarchy that lets us whip harder (esp under Org Rel). But I get the appeal. I can see CoL being the right tech to research first.
In the end, what matters is the pop count and infra set up, say, around 1 AD. Earlier cities will have more time to set up.
It's possible I overvalue the early Granaries. I can see that, too
You have 2 settlers for 5 city spots. I don't care much about Agri and AH but I don't think we can skip Pottery. Taking the Granary hits asap would make it a lot easier to complete the settling. The first two cities have 20 food surplus combined. Your 3rd has 10F surplus as well. Skipping Pottery basically delays those Granaries by 20 turns.
Caste border pops are great but perhaps the tech is premature, here ?
There's also some tension between :
- GLH and controlled expansion ;
- Monotheism and less cities.
We have trade routes and a lot of infra to set up. I think production (hence : Garnaries) >>> everything else.
On Caste itself. Krikav went the same route. I understand the appeal. I'm not 100% sure it's better than Monarchy that lets us whip harder (esp under Org Rel). But I get the appeal. I can see CoL being the right tech to research first.
In the end, what matters is the pop count and infra set up, say, around 1 AD. Earlier cities will have more time to set up.
It's possible I overvalue the early Granaries. I can see that, too
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I think if you want to optimize for early CoL, you better have a settler and a missionary on that iron/rice/oasis spot ready to run specialist for two turns and pop borders. That would unlock overseas forreign traderoutes which is the prize we are looking for.
I too doubt that granaryless approach is worth it but that all depends... Earlier contact, earlier trades.. Maybe some good tech trade comes up.
Pacal had dye for me right away, maybe he have something else too.
Btw... the western helper city (can share clam, sheep, marble) is likely not worth it until biology.
Capital is very greedy...
If that spot is to be settled, it should be settled way early when happycap is a big problem.
I too doubt that granaryless approach is worth it but that all depends... Earlier contact, earlier trades.. Maybe some good tech trade comes up.
Pacal had dye for me right away, maybe he have something else too.
Btw... the western helper city (can share clam, sheep, marble) is likely not worth it until biology.
Capital is very greedy...
If that spot is to be settled, it should be settled way early when happycap is a big problem.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
To me, the good "helper" is crabs+forests. It's already to the East, so it reduces travel time.
It doesn't need a border pop, it can contribute boats, missionaries and workers.
edit : on that city : I'm pretty sure I stacked up to 5 whip anger in that spot, and for longer than a whip cycle. So, yeah, useful.
It was my third. I know you guys improved on this map since then.
It doesn't need a border pop, it can contribute boats, missionaries and workers.
edit : on that city : I'm pretty sure I stacked up to 5 whip anger in that spot, and for longer than a whip cycle. So, yeah, useful.
It was my third. I know you guys improved on this map since then.
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Yeah, thats a good city! It did a whole lot in my game, that poor city was always low in pop and never got anything for itself, but it contributed a whole lot.
I have also contemplated a city with fish/rice in second ring early, it's super nice to get those peaks under culture! Spawnbusting on a budget.
I have also contemplated a city with fish/rice in second ring early, it's super nice to get those peaks under culture! Spawnbusting on a budget.
soundjata
reluctant warrior
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2011
- Messages
- 2,283
Yeah agreed.
My last game lacks a quick 4th city (unleash full trade route potential)
No obvious spot :
- Crab is ok but 1 "power" tile only.
- I also like fish / rice 2nd ring but it has to start on a brown mine for 10 turns...
Finally my original game with a quick western helper was a good choice ! (also generated a GS) lol
No granary is dubious. It hurt my eyes whipping the good tiles around the capitol so I thought : let's not whip.
But I think BIC is correct I put too much emphasis on
vs. 
It's hard for me to optimize without a goal
What are we looking at ?
- Settle all cities ASAP ? (how many?)
- Improve all food ASAP ?
or
- Reach Steel ASAP ?
Maybe with a powerful rex (like @krikav last game), engineering rush is feasible...
Edit: There is another beeline to explore
My last game lacks a quick 4th city (unleash full trade route potential)
No obvious spot :
- Crab is ok but 1 "power" tile only.
- I also like fish / rice 2nd ring but it has to start on a brown mine for 10 turns...
Finally my original game with a quick western helper was a good choice ! (also generated a GS) lol
No granary is dubious. It hurt my eyes whipping the good tiles around the capitol so I thought : let's not whip.
But I think BIC is correct I put too much emphasis on
vs. It's hard for me to optimize without a goal
What are we looking at ?
- Settle all cities ASAP ? (how many?)
- Improve all food ASAP ?
or
- Reach Steel ASAP ?
Maybe with a powerful rex (like @krikav last game), engineering rush is feasible...
Edit: There is another beeline to explore
Spoiler :
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BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
I count 10 cities. I'm not big on sharing tiles on a map like this. It requires double the infrastructure, adds maintenance, loses food to an otherwise strong city and we're already looking at a high city count.
All food asap, yes. We have knowledge of Granaries, Lighthouses, Libraries, Temples and, eventually, Forges, Altars and more. We also have access to happy cap.
Finally, GLH says our cities are basically free.
Steel asap. I think this is more a result of the tech path than it is dependent on the settling pattern. Steel is a long way ; more cities sooner will get us there faster.
It's a little different for CoL asap. I can see us taking a light approach between cities 7 and 10, so as to speed it up. Then settling the last 3 in a quick wave.
10 turns working the mine (waiting on border pop) represents a workboat and half a Granary. I don't think it's that bad to hammer those out of the way. It's conceivable to complete the Granary at size 1, actually.
You're right that the crab is a weak tile before the Lighthouse is done. The city has an instant 3 forests, however, and that's a big help to set it up quickly.
I think it's important to consider how those first cities can contribute to the settling of others and not just their long-term potential.
Some cities are not in an urgent need of a border pop and that's a big plus. Stone+Sheep, for example, is a nice one. We don't have many of those, actually, only 2
The Colossus going obsolete with Astronomy is a let down.
All food asap, yes. We have knowledge of Granaries, Lighthouses, Libraries, Temples and, eventually, Forges, Altars and more. We also have access to happy cap.
Finally, GLH says our cities are basically free.
Steel asap. I think this is more a result of the tech path than it is dependent on the settling pattern. Steel is a long way ; more cities sooner will get us there faster.
It's a little different for CoL asap. I can see us taking a light approach between cities 7 and 10, so as to speed it up. Then settling the last 3 in a quick wave.
It also hurts my dotmap (I want that one riverside, 1S of the rice) but it is conceivable to settle this fish 1st ring with a workboat from Teotihuacan.... Gotcha, you grab the iron with that spot and that eases up the location for sheep/marble. I think the plains mine is ok to start with. It's convenient to have some amount of natural hammers in a double food city. Actually, the more I look at this spot, the more I like it (even without the iron).
10 turns working the mine (waiting on border pop) represents a workboat and half a Granary. I don't think it's that bad to hammer those out of the way. It's conceivable to complete the Granary at size 1, actually.
You're right that the crab is a weak tile before the Lighthouse is done. The city has an instant 3 forests, however, and that's a big help to set it up quickly.
I think it's important to consider how those first cities can contribute to the settling of others and not just their long-term potential.
Some cities are not in an urgent need of a border pop and that's a big plus. Stone+Sheep, for example, is a nice one. We don't have many of those, actually, only 2
I don't see it but maybe
The Colossus going obsolete with Astronomy is a let down.Spoiler :
Regarding sharing and double infra...
Spoiler :
Won lib (took Astro), also won the Economics merchant which was super nice.
Lost Taj, don't even have nationalism.
Trying to beeline to kremlin, had a super smart plan too.
Went 90% into HBR and Drama, then finished one of them with maximum overflow, traded for PP with Pacal and next turn (when I rolled into HBR too for one more turn of overflow) I wanted to trade for SciMeth with Asoka.
Would have been glorious, but the evil fiend thought I was becomming too advanced. :'(
I need the Kremlin...
Good thing Saladin is putting a dagger into his back.
T148 status:
Spoiler :
@soundjata closest save I had was T98... Workers was mostly busy making the long road east.
Spoiler T98 tile improvements :
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Whipping 11 pop in a single turn 
Whipping a size 25 city 
What have you done ?! We want revenge !! We want blood for our oppressors !!
Whipping a size 25 city What have you done ?! We want revenge !! We want blood for our oppressors !!
@BornInCantaloup This was the idea about whipping the capital... Multiple bulidings whipped with +75% bonus (Bur+OR), they then had alot of overflow.
If these are released outside of Bur/OR, the overflow is not divided by 2 (bur+or+forge) but instead by 1.25 (just forge).
I then rolled the overflow along until I was ready.
Pacal the fiend got to communism a few turns before me and immediatly started kremlin (wouldn't trade, "We have our reasons..."), but he does not have stone so I have a fair chance.
If these are released outside of Bur/OR, the overflow is not divided by 2 (bur+or+forge) but instead by 1.25 (just forge).
I then rolled the overflow along until I was ready.
Pacal the fiend got to communism a few turns before me and immediatly started kremlin (wouldn't trade, "We have our reasons..."), but he does not have stone so I have a fair chance.
Spoiler Capital has recovered... :
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
I see, this is a cunning plan, indeed ! Those farms are very good-looking, by the way 
Still, this was a good and fun experience
Heavy replays will have that effect. At some point, a map will be dropped incomplete.I think it is time to throw the towel
Still, this was a good and fun experience
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Yeah, it's extremly hard to keep engagement/involvement with the map if you replay alot. Some of the magic is lost and it's more of a fun puzzle instead.
Thank you so much for sharing the experience, really fun that you both saw GLH as essential from the start when I thought it was nonsense... And it does indeed turn out like it's more or less essential.
Pre optics traderoutes can do miracles.
Thank you so much for sharing the experience, really fun that you both saw GLH as essential from the start when I thought it was nonsense... And it does indeed turn out like it's more or less essential.
Pre optics traderoutes can do miracles.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
I'll agree that this was very enjoyable as a collaborative effort, a rare thing (!).
I'll side with Soundjata and consider myself done with playing turns on this map (actually since the end of last week - I'm not going to reload 40 turns or replay from t0).
We can find other maps, if we want. There's no lack of those.
Still, replaying, refining those openings are great ways to improve. Map knowledge skews things. I think it should be more about mechanics. I don't consider myself drilled, esp as war is concerned, but participating in such a thread sure helps (some players don't need to be drilled - I do - that's another subject).
I'll side with Soundjata and consider myself done with playing turns on this map (actually since the end of last week - I'm not going to reload 40 turns or replay from t0).
We can find other maps, if we want. There's no lack of those.
Still, replaying, refining those openings are great ways to improve. Map knowledge skews things. I think it should be more about mechanics. I don't consider myself drilled, esp as war is concerned, but participating in such a thread sure helps (some players don't need to be drilled - I do - that's another subject).
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Yeah, I could. Do you have something in mind or ?
, no? Similar threads
