Moral Cowards!

I don't think I understand the distinction you're drawing there. Obviously a Nation is never an actual "tribe", it's too big for that, but I don't see how you could deny, or have even attempted to deny, that the reason why nations, or football clubs, or whatever else work, is that humans are tribal, and that it is easy to tap into that tribalism, whether it is done intentionally or not. And that's all that Akka has said there, that it is obvious that people are tribal in nature, and have a tendency to identify with groups or entities.
A tribe is the structure which built up our psyches. We are able to project it a bit further than a 100-people group, but the underlying structure is still here. The "in-group" vs "out-group" still works. And even more shocking : we are able to feel part of MULTIPLE groups, some included in others, some overlapping, some completely different (close family, company, country, city, species, hobby, sport team, game group...).

It's so friggin' obvious I'm always wondering when people act as if we're revealing some brand new unproved hypothesis, are being purposely blind or just in denial based on "reality clashes with my political desires of how the world should be so I'll pretend to not notice it".
I mean, for some of our most militant members, I don't have a doubt considering their entire personality seems to be constructed around denial, but for some others the jury is still in the air.
I appreciate that I'm a bit late in responding to this, but for the record, to make my position clear:

I don't dispute that humans are tribal. At least, I don't dispute that people tend to form groups, and that they to mentally construct those groups in terms of in-groups and out-groups, and that there's some sort of chemical reward for that whole process. I'm content to call this "tribalism" for the purposes of this discussion.

What I dispute is that this tribalism is sufficient or even, necessarily, a very useful way of explaining how nation-states work, or how nationalist politics work. Even the smallest nation-states are complex, bureaucratic and impersonal constructions, they don't simply happen, and certainly not because a semi-arbitrary group of people have decided that they feel very strongly about a flag and a song. While states may exploit or manipulate people's tribalistic tendencies to legitimise themselves or their actions, that is a small and secondary element of how states establish their legitimacy. It has to be; "tribal" identities are, as I've said, rooted in the personal, in recognised faces, and that's hard to pull off even in a nation of a few million, let alone tens or hundreds of millions, so "tribalism" when manifested at this scale tends to be ephemeral, a temporary burst of excitement in unusual circumstances. Far more important is the existence of robust institutions which are generally perceived as rational, just and consistent, which individuals feel are accountable to the public and over which they have some influence, however indirect, and, almost more than anything else, which simply exist, which make themselves a persistent fact of life. The most important thing that any state, any institution can be, is consistent, and "tribes" of more than a few hundred members, whose interactions are not regular and direct, are anything but consistent.

Stable nation-states, or at least stable regimes, tend to rely more on what I'll broadly call "republican" identities, which stress the relationships between the individual and public institutions, even when those identities are framed in national or even nationalistic terms. These are identities based on and intending towards regularity and consistency, of clearly-stated relationships and boundaries, rights and responsibilities, predictable and reliable, consistent. In contrast, strong appeals to tribalism tend to be found in regimes that struggle to establish legitimacy through other means, which lacks stable or robust institutions, in which institutions are distrusted or resented, or which simply struggle to make themselves felt in society. From below, it expresses an alienation from or distrust of public institutions, and a consequent attempt to assert force over those institutions by claiming political legitimacy as the dispensation of the group, the "tribe". In both cases, "tribalism" is a response to social and political conditions in which regular and predictable relations seem impossible or self-defeating. If tribalism was the rule, if it was the basic organising logic of even political society, we'd expect it to manifest consistently and in mundane circumstances, where in reality, it only strongly manifests itself in periods of anxiety or crisis, to which espousing a fluid, emotive and personal identity may seem more appropriate response than a more fixed, rational and institutional identity. People don't get "tribal" when they feel things are going their way.

Looking at xenophobic nationalism and saying "well, people are tribal" is not an explanation so much as a refusal to give an explanation, a thought-terminating cliché. It treats the nation-state as something that just is, and the way people think or feel about the nation-state as a product of dumb instinct, as if public institutions were not ongoing processes in which people actively participate, as if man was not a political animal. It's not a useful or productive way of thinking about human societies.
 
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Tribes mainly exist because of continuity. I.e., that anyone will have been part of a specific tribe will mostly be, because this person has been born into one and that there are a lot of obstacles in the way of finding or joining a new one, while the existing one can be trusted to give certain benefis and offer certain functions.

Stable tribes rest on strong social institutions. These are identities based on and intending towards regularity and consistency, of clearly-stated relationships and boundaries, rights and responsibilities, predictable and reliable, consistent.

Appeals to tribalism only happen under extreme conditions, when the group is otherwise not functional anymore or threatened from the outside.

There for, while tribes may exploit or manipulate people's tribalistic tendencies to legitimise themselves or their actions, that is a small and secondary element of how tribes establish their legitimacy.
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The point I am making, is, that of course tribalism doesn‘t provide any sufficient understanding of human groups, let alone nation-states. It is a vague principal tendency of humans, and as such, it has its fingers everywhere. And I mean everywhere. That is, how humans work. An inter-mingled mess. One that does ot lend itself to the imo artificially contained and boxed up version of tribalism you presented and used. I don‘t think a „tribal identity“ has to be rooted „in the personal, in recognised faces“. I think it can also be rooted in a mere idea, or a vague feeling. I think at its utmost basic, tribalism is plainly feeling connected to a group, in contrast to another group. And how we all are connected to a nation-state is implicit in virtually anything it does, and shows all the time in public debates. It is its social modus operanti.

So while you are right that nation-states rest on a lot more than „tribalism“, the question is also not how much tribalism can explain any specific state (the answer is: poorly, as you will agree), but how much it can explain the existence of nation-states as a whole. Just like any specific tribe can not be explained with tribalism, but tribes as such can.
 
What I dispute is that this tribalism is sufficient or even, necessarily, a very useful way of explaining how nation-states work, or how nationalist politics work.
Well, denial and wishful thinking are also deeply ingrained in human nature.

Your description of state is about the working and mechanisms. These are nice and all, but a state can only exist and survive if it has legitimacy and the people feel part of it. If they don't, then it fragments (usually along other tribal ties) and dies. That's why culturally homogenous states survive several centuries or millenia, and even experience rebirth from total destruction, while samely-organized states without the same common "tribal" roots (i.e. : heterogenous) only last as long as the central power can enforce military domination. Basically bottom-up vs top-down origins (though of course the government can manage to enforce cultural unity if it's strong enough, at which point it basically merges the different tribes into a larger one, which is still basing the state on tribalism).
 
That's why culturally homogenous states survive centuries or millenia, and even rebirth from total destruction, while samely-organized states without the same common "tribal" roots (i.e. : heterogenous) fragment and die.

The longest-lived states in history have all been ethnically heterogeneous.
 
Still hard at work replacing reality with your fantasies.

You see you're wrong, and then you refuse to respond, instead accusing the other person of being crazy or something.

I think it's hilarious but people who like discussion probably don't appreciate the sense of humor.
 
You see you're wrong
Yeah, you got me.
I mean some guy who shown times and again he's ready to bend reality backward ten times if needed just to make it fits his agenda, comes and makes an empty claim without any evidence or support and which actually flies in the face of history. It certainly proved me wrong. Ouch it burns. My oh my. Such a powerful rebuttal certainly humbled me.
 
Could do with some examples here. Surely China/Han Chinese has to be the standard others are compared (unfavourably) with?

Indeed, ethnically heterogeneous Imperial China lasted close to two thousand years in various forms. Ditto the Roman Empire. All the major dynastic empires were culturally heterogeneous. Indeed, I can't even really think of any long-lasting, far-reaching state that wasn't culturally heterogeneous. Perhaps the classical polis would count as a culturally homogeneous polity, but to my knowledge none of those makes the list of longest-lasting states in history.

Of course, I suspect that evidence and examples from history may be beside the point here. The law has been stated, thus:
That's why culturally homogenous states survive several centuries or millenia,

Therefore, any state that survived for several centuries or millennia will be determined retrospectively by Akka to have been culturally homogeneous, regardless of the reality.
 
Yeah, you got me.
I mean some guy who shown times and again he's ready to bend reality backward ten times if needed just to make it fits his agenda, comes and makes an empty claim without any evidence or support and which actually flies in the face of history. It certainly proved me wrong. Ouch it burns. My oh my. Such a powerful rebuttal certainly humbled me.

So you accept that what I said was a vapid and meaningless response?
 
So you accept that what I said was a vapid and meaningless response?
Yeah, I certainly accept that what you said was vapid, that's for sure. Not really sure it's what you actually wanted to say, but I'll take it as some subconscious realization.
 
Yeah, I certainly accept that what you said was vapid, that's for sure. Not really sure it's what you actually wanted to say, but I'll take it as some subconscious realization.

No, perfectly intentional.

What then is substantially different between "you're wrong" and "you're wrong" said by you, dressed up as something about reality?
 
Well homogeneity and heterogeneity are... difficult topics. I actually think that Akka is right that a successful nation-state needs a certain level of homogeneity. However: in a qualitative, not quantitative, manner. And: It will not be a "natural" homogeneity, but tied to the things Traitorfish described.
 
but if a person cannot even admit to themselves the consequences of their actions, does not think about why they hold the position they hold, then I have to say, in my opinion, those people are not acting on a moral framework at all - those people are acting on what feels good to them, not on what creates results.

Maybe I'm a bit hazy on the definition, but surely there is an element of "what feels good" in any moral decision or argument? Making a decision based solely on what creates results would be logical, not moral.

Maybe "moral" lies somewhere on a spectrum between the extremes of "feelz" and "realz", which is why it's usually so hard to pin down what the moral action actually is.
 
Ah yes. The thread in which you pretended to be adult while doing all sorts of childish whining.

You don't want immigrants, fine. Your country will just decline into insignificance over time. You really want to be poor and vulnerable, that's your choice.

But at the least stop pretending that your position on the issue exists in any sense other than the fact that you irrationally hate other people for no other reason than that you are not mature enough to not irrationally hate other people.

Lol. Top trolling there. Unless you were... serious?
 
The longest-lived states in history have all been ethnically heterogeneous.

I suppose it depends what you mean by homogeneous and heterogeneous. The example given, China, although it has many different ethnic groups, is 92% Han Chinese, and this has fallen slightly during the last 60-70 years (94% in 1953).

In pre-industrial, autocratic states it was quite common to have different groups under one king/emperor, or even to have a subject population ruled by a foreign élite.

In modern democracies, however, this is much rarer, and it requires a lot of compromises and concessions to accommodate the different groups and their interests. Even then, there are often movements that seek independence.
 
Well, denial and wishful thinking are also deeply ingrained in human nature.

Your description of state is about the working and mechanisms. These are nice and all, but a state can only exist and survive if it has legitimacy and the people feel part of it. If they don't, then it fragments (usually along other tribal ties) and dies. That's why culturally homogenous states survive several centuries or millenia, and even experience rebirth from total destruction, while samely-organized states without the same common "tribal" roots (i.e. : heterogenous) only last as long as the central power can enforce military domination. Basically bottom-up vs top-down origins (though of course the government can manage to enforce cultural unity if it's strong enough, at which point it basically merges the different tribes into a larger one, which is still basing the state on tribalism).
wilhelm-i-of-prussia-is-proclaimed-german-emperor-in-the-mirror-room-g39pkr.jpg


...Sure.

I suppose it depends what you mean by homogeneous and heterogeneous. The example given, China, although it has many different ethnic groups, is 92% Han Chinese, and this has fallen slightly during the last 60-70 years (94% in 1953).
In the Zhou dynasty?

History didn't begin in 1900, we can't assume that how things appear on the edge of living memory is just how they've always been.

In pre-industrial, autocratic states it was quite common to have different groups under one king/emperor, or even to have a subject population ruled by a foreign élite.

In modern democracies, however, this is much rarer, and it requires a lot of compromises and concessions to accommodate the different groups and their interests. Even then, there are often movements that seek independence.
Most modern states were either drawn around ethnics borders, have spent centuries creating artificially homogeneous populations, or a combination of both. Our predecessors have rather loaded the dice, on this one.
 
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