More colonial resources and general map changes

[Mef]

The problem I see with Slaves as a resource is not only that it's already in the game as a civic, but slave trade has been important for civilizations far before the age of colonialism.
So if it is to be implemented, slaves should be used from the start of the game, which might bring problems with balance and might be tedious to implement.

 

[Red Boxer]

You could have the slave resources change over time. Early on they would be all over (think about where the Romans got their slaves from), but as time went on they could disappear as civs popped up and appear in new historical places.

It wouldn't be hard to just re-imagine the Slavery civic into a new word and concept that still pushes the same basic concept, but opens up the idea of Slave resource.

 

[Cosmos1985]

The problem I see with Slaves as a resource is not only that it's already in the game as a civic, but slave trade has been important for civilizations far before the age of colonialism.
So if it is to be implemented, slaves should be used from the start of the game, which might bring problems with balance and might be tedious to implement.

Agreed. And while I don't have any concerns about bringing Slaves into the game more explicitly, but I don't think any of the proposals so far, as to how to implement them, seems viable. In my opinion we need to come up with something better, if we are to bring Slaves into the game as a resourse or other similar changes.

 

[BenZL43]

Personally, I think Slaves as resources is a bit unethical...

 

[BenZL43]

What about resources like Orange/Apples? There could be a lot in China, Indonesia, Thailand etc.. Or collectively, Fruits?

Then, how about the Natural Gases? There was some kind of discussion about adding Natural Gases to DoC.. it was in Synthesis era, iirc.

 

[Mef]

Personally, I think Slaves as resources is a bit unethical...

Why? Slavery has existed since before the first real civilizations formed.
History isn't supposed to filter for ethics and Civ is supposed to resemble history.
Countless of kings, generals and warlords have committed atrocious crimes by today's standards but they are still part of history and part of the game.

What about resources like Orange/Apples? There could be a lot in China, Indonesia, Thailand etc.. Or collectively, Fruits?

Did you just compare Apples and Oranges?

I don't know if they qualify as something notable, especially apples which were the most common fruit in Europe (actually the image of the 'forbidden fruit' as an apple was created in Europe since apples were the common fruit back then).
Doesn't seem like anything special to me and we already have Bananas as an Asian food resource.

Then, how about the Natural Gases? There was some kind of discussion about adding Natural Gases to DoC.. it was in Synthesis era, iirc.

That would be a resource for the very late game I believe, I'm not sure if that's worth adding.

 

[BenZL43]

No, I just can't imagine the Graphic.. could it be black people asking for helps? Or perhaps the improvements?

 

[Mef]

No, I just can't imagine the Graphic.. could it be black people asking for helps? Or perhaps the improvements?

You mean like that?
You don't have to show any humans, just a slave collar or iron handcuffs should be enough.
The improvements could be little markets for slave trade.

 

[merijn_v1]

The improvement could be very simply the Camp.

 

[soul-breathing]

The improvement could be very simply the Camp.

I think we can use Caravan in RFC-Asia as an improvement to use slaves,and the name can turn to Slave Market

 

[Fresol]

Why? Slavery has existed since before the first real civilizations formed.
History isn't supposed to filter for ethics and Civ is supposed to resemble history.
Countless of kings, generals and warlords have committed atrocious crimes by today's standards but they are still part of history and part of the game.



Did you just compare Apples and Oranges?

I don't know if they qualify as something notable, especially apples which were the most common fruit in Europe (actually the image of the 'forbidden fruit' as an apple was created in Europe since apples were the common fruit back then).
Doesn't seem like anything special to me and we already have Bananas as an Asian food resource.



That would be a resource for the very late game I believe, I'm not sure if that's worth adding.

We don't necessarily need everything historical in the game, personally I prefer adding only the ones that improve gameplay. Coffee/tea are easier to implement, and some map changes also help the gameplay so I would like to see them come first.

If we are to add more slavery elements into the game, it shouldn't be limited to Africa and some certain time. Whenever one civilization conquers another they should be able to enslave its people and that's some fundamental change to the game.

 

[Cosmos1985]

Personally, I think Slaves as resources is a bit unethical...

As opposed to the slavery civic, fascist police states, razing cities...??

 

[BenZL43]

Did you just compare Apples and Oranges?

Sort of. I have no idea whether European or American prefer Orange juice to Apple juice or vice versa

I don't know if they qualify as something notable, especially apples which were the most common fruit in Europe (actually the image of the 'forbidden fruit' as an apple was created in Europe since apples were the common fruit back then).
Doesn't seem like anything special to me and we already have Bananas as an Asian food resource.

I was inspired by SoI which have Orange, Apple, Honey etc.. perhaps it's better for regional RFC then..

That would be a resource for the very late game I believe, I'm not sure if that's worth adding.

It is. But it is very valuable.. Anyway, I am not the one suggesting this back then Just re-posting the idea

You mean like that?
You don't have to show any humans, just a slave collar or iron handcuffs should be enough.
The improvements could be little markets for slave trade.

Yeah... hahaha
But slave collar or Iron handcuffs won't be realistic.

 

[Mef]

We don't necessarily need everything historical in the game, personally I prefer adding only the ones that improve gameplay. Coffee/tea are easier to implement, and some map changes also help the gameplay so I would like to see them come first.

If we are to add more slavery elements into the game, it shouldn't be limited to Africa and some certain time. Whenever one civilization conquers another they should be able to enslave its people and that's some fundamental change to the game.

Yeah, I agree that slavery has a lot more potential than just to be used as a resource.

When capturing a city you could be faced with the decision to either plunder, destroy and sell the population into slavery ( earning you a big reward but leaving you a destroyed city) or to keep the city intact but incur increased unhappiness from your occupation.

You could earn temporary slave 'resources' by enslaving captured cities or buying them from other civs and every slave resource you own would give +2 in all cities until civil rights are researched.

As you can see, there's a lot of potential but as you said it would involve fundamental changes and Leoreth probably doesn't consider that one of his short-term targets.

 

[BenZL43]

As opposed to the slavery civic, fascist police states, razing cities...??

My concern was because it's about us, human.
Though I am not a black myself,
what if there's a black DoC player out there?
I thought we might hurt their feeling...

So, a big penalty for civs in modern era still using Slave resources?
Slave resources only accessible/visible if running Slavery civics?
I'm on your side now -It's historical.

 

[Leoreth]

I don't know if ethical concerns are really appropriate for something that actually existed in history. I would even consider it more offensive to not portray it just for these reasons, has an Orwellian feeling to it.

Anyway, I don't really know how to correctly implement it into the game. Resources in Africa, and then? Should Mali trade them? How will they benefit you in the Americas? It would require to create completely new rules to make it work, and that's really not worth it.

 

[civ_king]

What about resources like Orange/Apples? There could be a lot in China, Indonesia, Thailand etc.. Or collectively, Fruits?

Then, how about the Natural Gases? There was some kind of discussion about adding Natural Gases to DoC.. it was in Synthesis era, iirc.

Citrus fruits?

My concern was because it's about us, human.
Though I am not a black myself,
what if there's a black DoC player out there?
I thought we might hurt their feeling...

So, a big penalty for civs in modern era still using Slave resources?
Slave resources only accessible/visible if running Slavery civics?
I'm on your side now -It's historical.

You do realize that the slave trade involved blacks enslaving blacks and selling them to white people right?

I don't know if ethical concerns are really appropriate for something that actually existed in history. I would even consider it more offensive to not portray it just for these reasons, has an Orwellian feeling to it.

Anyway, I don't really know how to correctly implement it into the game. Resources in Africa, and then? Should Mali trade them? How will they benefit you in the Americas? It would require to create completely new rules to make it work, and that's really not worth it.

Censoring history does really feel Orwellian, however not including it for balance reason is perfectly valid. It would be really hard to reconcile game mechanics with accuracy, how exactly would you represent the moral sentiments against it? How would you represent the different types of slavery?

 

[FirstThunder]

Perhaps a slaves resource isn't necessary.
Maybe it could be based on a corporation(or two considering what I have in mind).

The first would be restricted to Africa and would only spread to cities that will be involved in the slave trade. In order to keep all of Africa from being a source of slaves, you could create a new tile(s)( duplicates of the standard tiles i.e. desert, plains, etc) that will be replace tiles in Africa to define the slave-trading regions. The corporation can only spread to cities founded on these tiles(a simple boolean check right?).

Since these cities are the sources so I think it is only fair that the corporation gives them a trade bonus or gold and very little production. Perhaps an increase in the number of trade routes too.

As for the production boost, only cities trading with the source cities get the boost(this could be done with that second corporation I was talking about).
Also if the player controls a source city, then trade routes with the player's cities should be given higher priority.

This will probably be difficult to code; but that aside, I think it should be based on a corporation not a resource.

 

[civ_king]

If one could make it so that it gave one resource per every x population that would be great and then another corporation gave x/resource that could work

 

[Mef]

You do realize that the slave trade involved blacks enslaving blacks and selling them to white people right?

It is correct that slavery per se had nothing to do with racism.
What brought racism into it was the fact that America was founded on the principle of 'all men are created equal', which was also adopted in other countries, so to justify slavery, black slaves had to be regarded as 'less than men'.


Giving colonies in the Americas more through slave trade doesn't seem wrong to me, it could help the Americans grow into a superpower, like in reality.