More Important to Russian History

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  • Lenin

    Votes: 18 51.4%
  • Stalin

    Votes: 17 48.6%

  • Total voters
    35

madviking

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Me and my parents got into this discussion of who was more important to the history of Russia: Vladimir Lenin or Joesph Stalin.

I personally feel that Stalin is more important by a bit. I think Lenin as an opportunist (he was in exile when the revolution started IIRC), however, his contributions to the revolution cannot be underplayed I feel.

On the other hand, Stalin was the man who got the USSR through World War II. Even though his legacy is very bad, his impact was greater.

But, you guys can debate.
 
Lenin is not nearly as important as a leader, espeically since a decent amount of power was actually deferred to others during his brief rule unlike Stalin which was much more totalitarian.

As for actual ideas and principles of the USSR, Lenin seems to be more important in that he was was much more influential on all the leaders after him. With the possible exception of Brezhnev everyone else seems to have made more attempts to move away from Stalinism.
 
The interesting thing about making some sort of ranking of historical importance is that the earlier figure, in almost every case, is going to be more important insofar that it's impossible to say where the latter would be without the earlier.
 
The interesting thing about making some sort of ranking of historical importance is that the earlier figure, in almost every case, is going to be more important insofar that it's impossible to say where the latter would be without the earlier.
Exactly. The only situation in which this wouldn't be true would be if the figures were pretty much completely unrelated. I doubt Alexander the Great's conquests had any effect on Meso-America, for example.
 
All of the above were more important to Russia's destruction than its construction. The only thing useful about bringing communism to Russia was that it prevented its complete destruction at the hands of the Germans during WWII, albeit only narrowly. If any of the two are bigger opportunists, it's Stalin, who turned the organs of government into his personal tools to aggrandize himself and his power base. At least Lenin can claim ideological motivation, and could only have been looking out for the country as a whole when he introduced the NEP.
 
I'd go for Lenin, i refuse to buy the whole 'he who came first was more important' in any of these types of questions.

I think that while of course Stalin changed the USSR an incredible amount and weilded probably more power than any human before or since, Lenin changed the country he took over more fundamentally than Stalin did.
 
All of the above were more important to Russia's destruction than its construction. The only thing useful about bringing communism to Russia was that it prevented its complete destruction at the hands of the Germans during WWII, albeit only narrowly. If any of the two are bigger opportunists, it's Stalin, who turned the organs of government into his personal tools to aggrandize himself and his power base. At least Lenin can claim ideological motivation, and could only have been looking out for the country as a whole when he introduced the NEP.

Oh, Stalin surely had as much ideological motivation as Lenin. The difference is just that Stalin was both more ruthless and far more paranoid than Lenin. And I guess that Lenin regarded the NEP merely as a temporary, necessary expedient, as much as Stalin regarded the grain requisitions and exports during the 1920s (begetting him the whole "holdomor" thing) to get the capital to build up the industry, in the same way. Lenin got lucky, history-wise, to have his name associated with the popular one.

Who was the most influential? I'd say Stalin just because he ran the country for far longed that Lenin did. And he certainly had his own... distinctive ideas about how to do it, wasn't just an "heir" to Lenin.
 
Oh, Stalin surely had as much ideological motivation as Lenin. The difference is just that Stalin was both more ruthless and far more paranoid than Lenin.

That is the product he tried to sell to the party while in power, which I don't buy but you do.

Stalin demonstrated many times that he would change his ideological position whenever it suited to discredit an opponent, then change it again to suit a different adversary. He never had any cohesive ideology other than to place himself at the center of power with no possibility of competition. The collectivization and industrialization he employed were simply means to that end. If industrialization and collectivization led to countless deaths, all the better as that would reduce the number of people that could oppose him.

The Soviet Union survived WW2 DESPITE Stalin, not because of him. And his centralization indirectly led to the USSR's downfall, as it made the government so inflexible as to be wholly unable to deal with changing times.

It's anyone's guess what Lenin would've been capable of had he been in power longer, but I tend to believe that he was more interested in the state and not in his own personal self.
 
We can't be sure if it wouldn't have happened in his absence.
 
We can't be sure if it wouldn't have happened in his absence.
We can pretty much be sure that the only man likely to take his place, Trotsky, would have pursued a very different policy though. I don't know much bout Trotsky, but I do know he wasn't keen on Stalin's "socialism in one country" plan.
 
As we all know, Ivan the Terrible and Stalin are reincarnations of a same person, who saved Holy Russia multiple times, defending it from the vile corrupt West and its Judeomasons. That person will arrive soon in his third incantation, and forever bring a period of happiness and joy for Russia and torture to her enemies. Lenin will have no future reincarnations, thus Stalin is more important.
 
We can't be sure if it wouldn't have happened in his absence.

Right, well if one uses that logic, you can't say Usain Bolt is a great runner because theoretically in his absence someone might have run even faster. If you are evaluating history you deal with what someone achieved, not what some hypothetical other person could have achieved in a parallel universe.
 
As we all know, Ivan the Terrible and Stalin are reincarnations of a same person, who saved Holy Russia multiple times, defending it from the vile corrupt West and its Judeomasons. That person will arrive soon in his third incantation, and forever bring a period of happiness and joy for Russia and torture to her enemies. Lenin will have no future reincarnations, thus Stalin is more important.

The third incarnation already exists:

8947_838d.jpeg
 
We can pretty much be sure that the only man likely to take his place, Trotsky, would have pursued a very different policy though. I don't know much bout Trotsky, but I do know he wasn't keen on Stalin's "socialism in one country" plan.

In reality, Stalin stole much of his concrete plan from the would-be challengers and rivals in the Party. Lev Trotsky is the largest contributor, but so are Nikolai Bukharin and Grigory Zinoviev. In fact, the whole idea of the Five-Year Plan for Industrial Development is a Trotskyist initiative. But you would not know it, from Stalinist propaganda. The slanderfest organized against Trotsky is thus highly ironic, claiming Trotskyism to be a social-democratic rightist deviation, whilst the propagators pursued a program that Trotsky himself dreamed up, though in a perverted and overly concentrated form. The opposition from Trotsky came, first and foremost, from his own denunciation and subsequent exile, but there were also legitimate concerns about the perversion of his plan that I have alluded to above. According to him, things were overly centralized and full of bureaucratic overlap and other nonsense, which contributed to a top-heavy bureaucratic mess that snuffed out participatory economics. He was also critical of the forced collectivization of agriculture, it being the opinion of both Trotsky and Lenin that such participation was to be purely voluntary, though heavily propagandized in favor of. It was Stalin, by playing on the kulak bogeyman, who initially drew support to himself by calling for forced collectivization, criticizing the voluntary system as proceeding towards socialism "at a snail's pace," a criticism he later leveled on the NEP as a whole (which leads the the above). He was not specific in his criticism of the NEP, however, about what should be done instead, and really had nothing but vagaries until he had finished ruining Trotsky's reputation, after which he adopted the rough outline of the Five Year Plan, and turned Trotskyism into another vague bogeyman, claiming it to be Bonapartism and reactionary social-democracy, but never explaining why. It should be obvious why they never explained. Similar things were done to Nikolai Bukharin, who was fearlessly and vocally critical of the forced collectivization campaign in the early 30s, and advocated a rather large de-collectivization campaign with explanations why (he was quite the interesting economist). Stalin repeated the slander campaign against this new challenger, which ended in Bukharin's execution. He then repeated the follow-up to Trotsky's denunciation, which was to adopt Bukharin's ideas somewhat, as if they had been his all along. Subsequent retreats from collectivization followed, and were added to the singular monolith of absolute Stalinist wisdom.

EDIT: So to summarize, things would have been quite different, but not wholly unrecognizable, had Stalin's wings been clipped. The biggest difference would probably have been the Purges and GULAG system, though I think much of the starvation that occurred between 1927 and 1933 might still have happened.
 
Don't you think that the industrialization of the SU might have come in handy in WWII?

Industrialization that was accidentally achieved despite itself. By this I mean brutally enslaving political prisoners by the hundreds of thousands and forcing them to work until they were dead, building projects that were haphazardly planned.

Mind you, this was not the first instance of crash industrialization. Japan, for example, had achieved likewise in the 19th century but at a far lower cost of human lives and with far greater efficiency.
 
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