More Important to Russian History

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  • Lenin

    Votes: 18 51.4%
  • Stalin

    Votes: 17 48.6%

  • Total voters
    35
RedRalphWiggum said:
Right, well if one uses that logic, you can't say Usain Bolt is a great runner because theoretically in his absence someone might have run even faster. If you are evaluating history you deal with what someone achieved, not what some hypothetical other person could have achieved in a parallel universe.

Its economics really RRW now. I'm sure Cheezy could provide us with a good basis in evidence for supposing what Trotsky would have done (which he has). And using that and the existing trajectory of the Soviet economy we could estimate a likely result using Soviet economic models if we wanted to. Besides, I thought this would have been the kind of argument you embraced. At best, it allows the possibility that Stalin's policies did help industrialise the Soviet Union despite the blood and at worst stops all speculation to the contrary.
 
In reality, Stalin stole much of his concrete plan from the would-be challengers and rivals in the Party. Lev Trotsky is the largest contributor, but so are Nikolai Bukharin and Grigory Zinoviev. In fact, the whole idea of the Five-Year Plan for Industrial Development is a Trotskyist initiative. But you would not know it, from Stalinist propaganda. The slanderfest organized against Trotsky is thus highly ironic, claiming Trotskyism to be a social-democratic rightist deviation, whilst the propagators pursued a program that Trotsky himself dreamed up, though in a perverted and overly concentrated form. The opposition from Trotsky came, first and foremost, from his own denunciation and subsequent exile, but there were also legitimate concerns about the perversion of his plan that I have alluded to above. According to him, things were overly centralized and full of bureaucratic overlap and other nonsense, which contributed to a top-heavy bureaucratic mess that snuffed out participatory economics. He was also critical of the forced collectivization of agriculture, it being the opinion of both Trotsky and Lenin that such participation was to be purely voluntary, though heavily propagandized in favor of. It was Stalin, by playing on the kulak bogeyman, who initially drew support to himself by calling for forced collectivization, criticizing the voluntary system as proceeding towards socialism "at a snail's pace," a criticism he later leveled on the NEP as a whole (which leads the the above). He was not specific in his criticism of the NEP, however, about what should be done instead, and really had nothing but vagaries until he had finished ruining Trotsky's reputation, after which he adopted the rough outline of the Five Year Plan, and turned Trotskyism into another vague bogeyman, claiming it to be Bonapartism and reactionary social-democracy, but never explaining why. It should be obvious why they never explained. Similar things were done to Nikolai Bukharin, who was fearlessly and vocally critical of the forced collectivization campaign in the early 30s, and advocated a rather large de-collectivization campaign with explanations why (he was quite the interesting economist). Stalin repeated the slander campaign against this new challenger, which ended in Bukharin's execution. He then repeated the follow-up to Trotsky's denunciation, which was to adopt Bukharin's ideas somewhat, as if they had been his all along. Subsequent retreats from collectivization followed, and were added to the singular monolith of absolute Stalinist wisdom.

EDIT: So to summarize, things would have been quite different, but not wholly unrecognizable, had Stalin's wings been clipped. The biggest difference would probably have been the Purges and GULAG system, though I think much of the starvation that occurred between 1927 and 1933 might still have happened.
Interesting Cheezy, though I wish you'd broken it up into more paragraphs ("my eyes, the goggles do nothing!). But I was thinking more of Trotsky's foreign policy;while I didn't know the details of his industrialisation plan, I was aware of the fact that Stalin opposed it, only to steal much of it later.

From what I understand of Trotsky's views on foreign policy - and this may well be Stalinist propaganda in its own right, I don't know - he was more likely to pursue an openly aggressive policy from the outset, whereas as Stalin was more strategic and opportunistic; I don't see Trotsky making friends with Britain and France out of fear of Germany, for example, or vice versa. I see him pushing openly for communist revolutions, rather than the less obviously dangerous popular fronts that Stalin had international communists form. I also see him invading neighbouring countries to spread the revolution, even though this was an unsuccessful strategy that Stalin abandoned. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Its economics really RRW now. I'm sure Cheezy could provide us with a good basis in evidence for supposing what Trotsky would have done (which he has). And using that and the existing trajectory of the Soviet economy we could estimate a likely result using Soviet economic models if we wanted to. Besides, I thought this would have been the kind of argument you embraced. At best, it allows the possibility that Stalin's policies did help industrialise the Soviet Union despite the blood and at worst stops all speculation to the contrary.

I'm not saying this on the basis that it offends my sensibilities about the USSR, I just think when you are evealuating someone contribution to history, there is little value in basing that evalution on what might have happened in their absence. I understand the temptation to do it, but I don't think it's of much value really. This is not USSR-specific, I'd say the same about FDR, James Connolly or Jesus.
 
Interesting Cheezy, though I wish you'd broken it up into more paragraphs ("my eyes, the goggles do nothing!).

I tried, but there seemed no opportune place.

But I was thinking more of Trotsky's foreign policy;while I didn't know the details of his industrialisation plan, I was aware of the fact that Stalin opposed it, only to steal much of it later.

What is important to remember is that Stalin primarily opposed people, not ideas. He either stole other peoples' ideas (examples already given ) or did what he was told (as Pravda editor in April 1917 when he did a total about-face after the April Theses).

From what I understand of Trotsky's views on foreign policy - and this may well be Stalinist propaganda in its own right, I don't know - he was more likely to pursue an openly aggressive policy from the outset, whereas as Stalin was more strategic and opportunistic; I don't see Trotsky making friends with Britain and France out of fear of Germany, for example, or vice versa. I see him pushing openly for communist revolutions, rather than the less obviously dangerous popular fronts that Stalin had international communists form. I also see him invading neighbouring countries to spread the revolution, even though this was an unsuccessful strategy that Stalin abandoned. Correct me if I'm wrong.

This is essentially correct. Since the repudiation of the Provisional Government in the April Theses, the Bolsheviks were essentially acting like Trots. They were disavowing the orthodox Marxist path of social and economic development, which was defended in Russia by the Mensheviks. The point of this was essentially that Lenin had realized the great opportunity that had been handed the working class, and pursued really the only policy left for anyone who actually believed in ending capitalist oppression. I think he was right in doing so.

What the Mensheviks expected to happen was that through dvoevlastnie (dual power), the Soviet, which was the organ of the working class and soldiers, could press on the throat of the Duma (the Provisional Government, or bourgeois organ of power) and guide the capitalist phase of development. The Bolsheviks said "look, we've got the power, we've got the chance, their power is unconsolidated, let's just do it NOW for God's sake! Who wants to wait around?" Their ideas were initially not so popular, but after April more and more of the working class came to realize that the Provisional Government was not so different from the Tsar, and in some ways were worse. Where the Tsar had been positioning to try and sue for a separate peace, if only in a vague way, the bourgeoisie, who owned the factories manufacturing things for the war effort, had contracts for several years into the future which they intended to have fulfilled, and thus designed to keep the war going, when the people so desperately wanted out. They also showed no interest in solving the land problem, something the Tsar had been carefully sidestepping since 1905, and they cared little for the basic needs (food!) of the poor and peasantry, already having enough for themselves. The Kerensky Offensive was the first great proof of this "new boss, same as the old boss" reality.

But I'm wandering. The whole point of the October Revolution was to consolidate socialist power in Russia while the workers actually had the power to do so; it was realized from the outset that Russia would not get far without help from Europe, where Lenin and Trotsky maintained that the real revolution was yet to come. But when those revolutions did come, they were small and easily snuffed out. The exception is the Hungarian SSR, which lasted for several years, but which the Russians were too distracted by their own Civil War to come to the aid of (they were territorially cut off by the Whites). So once Capital had been overthrown in Europe, which, if you'll remember, is where Marx said it should be, and the working class began laboring for collective benefit, rather than national or individual, then the Russians would get help from their European brothers in coming up to speed with them. So until that happened, Russia would have to kind of prepare itself as much as it could, and even might have to bring the revolution to Europe itself. All Bolsheviks understood how imperative European revolution was, because Sovnarkom could not survive long against such adversaries by itself. Trotsky, like all Bolsheviks in the 1920s, sought to carry the revolution to Europe and beyond, it was only a matter of time. But they also came to understand that the revolutions in Britain, Germany, Italy, and Hungary had been stomped out for the time being, and that, at least for the mean time, Russia would have to start doing things herself, and bolster against the next attempt by the West to destroy socialism before socialism destroyed it. Whence came the NEP, then the Five Year Plans.

I think that Trotsky might have been more aggressive internationally, and of course I would rather that it was so. But I don't know that he would have had the prudence of Stalin in not antagonizing the West extensively during the rise of Nazism. We don't know that a more aggressive USSR would not force Britain and France into cooperation with Nazi Germany, if only tacitly, against it first. While USSR stood against the Nazis, I don't think it could have against all of them. But then, we cannot be sure just where he would be aggressive. Some supported undermining the Imperialists by way of their colonies; maybe there would have been Soviet actions towards India and the Persian Gulf? Who knows. But what is certain is that Stalin did not pursue territory until it was duly advantageous to do so, and in a way and time that the West could be angry about but not so angry as to choose the Soviets as the worse of two evils. Trotsky may have carried the revolution too fast, and caused an undue burden on the USSR.
 
Industrialization that was accidentally achieved despite itself. By this I mean brutally enslaving political prisoners by the hundreds of thousands and forcing them to work until they were dead, building projects that were haphazardly planned.

Mind you, this was not the first instance of crash industrialization. Japan, for example, had achieved likewise in the 19th century but at a far lower cost of human lives and with far greater efficiency.
Just because people suffer and are killed an industrialization my not be called ineffective. In fact Stalin recklessness is part of the reason why it grew so crazily fast. And in fact I would argue a really rapidly proceeding industrialization will make the people suffer inevitably.
I would turn your argumentation even around: It is very cost-effective to let slaves build railroads. They don't have to be paid.

I have read an interesting book on the topic a while back which was concerned with Planned Economy under Stalin and which came to the conclusion that a Planned Economy works quit well for building up heavy industry. I believe this conclusion to be true. I assume this is also the reason why East-Germany got ahead of West-Germany at the very beginning.
 
Just because people suffer and are killed an industrialization my not be called ineffective. In fact Stalin recklessness is part of the reason why it grew so crazily fast. And in fact I would argue a really rapidly proceeding industrialization will make the people suffer inevitably.
I would turn your argumentation even around: It is very cost-effective to let slaves build railroads. They don't have to be paid.

What I should have said is "inefficient". All that human capital lost that could've continued in use. And slavery is not efficient in an industrial economy, or else it would still be widespread today in the first world.
 
What I should have said is "inefficient". All that human capital lost that could've continued in use. [/QUOTE
On the long run, sure, it may be called ineffective I suppose.
But we were referring to the WWII, not the overall economical development of the SU.
And slavery is not efficient in an industrial economy, or else it would still be widespread today in the first world.
Slavery is efficient to build stuff, especially regarding heavy industry where the consumer aspect is quit irrelevant yet. It is impossible for me to believe that you don't grasp that.
Another "I know all about Soviets" guy... :scan:
This is reasoning totally independent of any knowledge of Soviet history. :p
 
SiLL said:
Slavery is efficient to build stuff, especially regarding heavy industry where the consumer aspect is quit irrelevant yet. It is impossible for me to believe that you don't grasp that.

I'm yet to see any evidence that it is or that it was integral or even necessary to the Soviet Unions economic growth. I'm just seeing assertions that it was desirable and useful based on nothing.
 
I'm yet to see any evidence that it is or that it was integral or even necessary to the Soviet Unions economic growth.
Nothing of the like has been said or even suggested.
I'm just seeing assertions that it was desirable and useful based on nothing.
Based on really simple and primitive logic. Effective means cost-effective. Slavery is the most cost-effective workforce available for simple tasks of handcraft.
Don't tell me I have to go into detail on this. I mean it is so self-explanatory.
 
SiLL said:
Nothing of the like has been said or even suggested.

Its certainly been intimated by yourself.

SiLL said:
Based on really simple and primitive logic. Effective means cost-effective. Slavery is the most cost-effective workforce available for simple tasks of handcraft.

Opportunity cost? I could have 5000 normal workers value adding an average of $15 an hour or alternatively I could have 5000 slaves value adding $5 an hour. Which is better? Hint: It isn't the slaves. It gets even more ridiculous when I could use those additional wages to buy a tractor which eliminates the need for the slaves in the first place.

SiLL said:
Don't tell me I have to go into detail on this. I mean it is so self-explanatory.

Its stupid quasi logic because it ignores the possibility of change.
 
But we were referring to the WWII, not the overall economical development of the SU.

Which is it, the economics of slavery or Stalin's horrid mismanagement of the war that nearly cost the USSR the war?

If the latter, the Soviets only won the war despite Stalin, not because of him. He had already slaughtered most of the officer corps in a wave of paranoia and failed even to react promptly to the German attack. The Red Army only started winning when he let his generals actually do their job and plan campaigns. They were also fortunate to be facing an equally incompetent imbecile, Hitler, who simultaneously prevented his general staff from acting accordingly while Stalin allowed them.

If the former, you are obviously woefully ignorant of economics. Had you not noticed slavery disappearing throughout the world c. mid-19th century? Did you think that the entire planet suddenly had an attack of altruism after thousands of years of rapacious cruelty? No, what came along were industrial machines that could do work on a scale not possible by mere manual labor, and were a more valuable investment than feeding, housing, and guarding an army of slaves. Hint: it is a lot cheaper to pay people for their working time at machines than it is to pay for their entire existence from cradle to grave.
 
Aleksey_aka_al said:
There was no slavery. No slavery of any possible form.

Its de-facto slavery. But if it pleases you we could call it: prison labour or whatever. It doesn't really matter.
 
It is very cost-effective to let slaves build railroads. They don't have to be paid.
But you do have to pay people to fix the railroad that slaves built poorly.
 
Its de-facto slavery. But if it pleases you we could call it: prison labour or whatever. It doesn't really matter.

In % scale there were less prisoners in USSR than in modern USA. Prison labour is not a slavery, it hardly cover maintance costs of prisons. Prison labour was highly insignificant compared to other forms of labour.
 
Whatever, I'm not American so I don't particularly care how you propose to morally equivocate it away. But if even a fraction of say One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich is correct then you might as well call it slavery.

Aleksey_aka_al said:
Prison labour was highly insignificant compared to other forms of labour.

I think you need to read my arguments.
 
Its certainly been intimated by yourself.
That is you not having fully comprehending the context. I was replaying to the notion that the massive industrialization of the SU were possible despite Stalin. To support that argumentation slavery had been mentioned.
I merely argued and argue, that it is insubstantial to argue that without slavery the industrialization would have been even stronger in its progress by pointing that it could be actually beneficial to make use of salvery.
Especially regarding a planned economy, where the preferences of the consumer / single worker are of not much (if any) importance at that stage.
Opportunity cost? I could have 5000 normal workers value adding an average of $15 an hour or alternatively I could have 5000 slaves value adding $5 an hour. Which is better? Hint: It isn't the slaves. It gets even more ridiculous when I could use those additional wages to buy a tractor which eliminates the need for the slaves in the first place.
Those workers could very well also require a triple (or more) of the value a slaves becomes as wage (wage for the slave means basic food supply, housing etc.).
Its stupid quasi logic because it ignores the possibility of change.
Explain please.
If the former, you are obviously woefully ignorant of economics. Had you not noticed slavery disappearing throughout the world c. mid-19th century?
Slavery was disappearing to make work force free for the factories n the city. There many employees would had gladly enslaved them again if political possible (and also did so in a practical sense as far as possible).
So I wonder who is ignorant here.
Did you think that the entire planet suddenly had an attack of altruism after thousands of years of rapacious cruelty? No, what came along were industrial machines that could do work on a scale not possible by mere manual labor, and were a more valuable investment than feeding, housing, and guarding an army of slaves. Hint: it is a lot cheaper to pay people for their working time at machines than it is to pay for their entire existence from cradle to grave.
First, through wages you pay for exactly that.
Second, you mix up our discussion about Stalin's industrialization and general economics (and even with his military skills :confused:) and as a consequence put my claims in a context never intended. See my reply to Masada.

And third: Just consider this: In the SU a Planned Economy was practiced, choking most possibilities of individual initiative. This means whatever happens with the economy is in the end a result of central planning, of which Stalin was the head of naturally.
For decades Russia was gravely getting outpaced by the West, so there does not seem the be a natural trend towards industrialization in Russia/SU at the time. Yet under Stalin industry grew even stronger than it did in most other countries.
The country now became industrialized at a hitherto unprecedented pace, surpassing Germany's pace of industrialization in the 19th century and Japan's earlier in the 20th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Soviet_Union

Hence alone form this general perspective it seems an utmost wild claim that the industrialization succeeded despite of Stalin.
What is also ignored is the huge amounts of voluntary labor, by people who truly believed in what they were doing.
Is this really a factor of much importance? I imagine that the fulfillment of plans was not based upon volunteering.
On the other hand I can see how this increased effectiveness. It is hard to measure something like that.
 
SiLL said:
I merely argued and argue, that it is insubstantial to argue that without slavery the industrialization would have been even stronger in its progress by pointing that it could be actually beneficial to make use of salvery.

Its obvious you don't understand basic economics. That's fine. But use some common sense because your position is ridiculous.

SiLL said:
Especially regarding a planned economy, where the preferences of the consumer / single worker are of not much (if any) importance at that stage.

This has nothing to do with it. Best use of human capital does.

SiLL said:
Those workers could very well also require a triple (or more) of the value a slaves becomes as wage (wage for the slave means basic food supply, housing etc.).

What? That makes no sense. You have a skilled actuary. Dude under normal circumstances could value add $15 a day to his factory, equipped with a shovel he value adds only $5 a day. The net cost to the economy is $10 a day. Multiply these costs over a hundred and you can probably buy a bulldozer that replace all the slave labour. It makes almost no sense to use vast amounts of labour like that when it can be replaced by minimal amounts of capital.

SiLL said:
Explain please.

Look up best use or opportunity cost. This is like the most basic economic principles imaginable. Even Marxist economics makes use of them.
 
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