Most interesting period of history?

I would claim that the First World War is more interesting than the Second because it's not so damn overdone.

First World War? That was probably the most pointless war in history... I mean really? A Bosnian-Serb nationalist kills the Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria, so lets all fight Germany and the Central Powers! Plus, WWI wasn't even much of a world war, look at these two maps of participants in WWI and WWII
(for the first image, most of Africa were still colonies of Europe, so those couldn't be counted towards it being most of the world at war, just more European powers)

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and

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Anyways, check out this hilarious article from the Onion :D
 

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First World War? That was probably the most pointless war in history... I mean really? A Bosnian-Serb nationalist kills the Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria, so lets all fight Germany and the Central Powers!
There are many pointless wars. That wasn't one of them. The war was not fought solely because elements of the Serbian government assassinated the heir to the Austrian throne. That's actually a large part of the reason as to why it is interesting to me: the entire shape of the July Crisis and of the events of early August 1914.
Joecoolyo said:
Plus, WWI wasn't even much of a world war, look at these two maps of participants in WWI and WWII
(for the first image, most of Africa were still colonies of Europe, so those couldn't be counted towards it being most of the world at war, just more European powers)
Both of them had major engagements all over the world. The 1914 naval campaign was quite large in scope, actually. And there was actually fighting in many of those African colonies, just like in World War II, so I don't see how it doesn't make sense to 'count' the colonies - especially when many of them contributed manpower to their metropolies' forces on the European front lines as well. They were colonies during the Second World War as well so it's silly to be able to count them for one conflict but not the other. ;)

Besides, many countries declared war in the Second World War near the end, in late 1944 and early 1945, and contributed little to no troops or resources to the war effort. Doesn't make much sense to be able to count them either. :p
 
For me, the 17th and 18th centuries. And the Crusader States of the Levant
 
There are many pointless wars. That wasn't one of them. The war was not fought solely because elements of the Serbian government assassinated the heir to the Austrian throne. That's actually a large part of the reason as to why it is interesting to me: the entire shape of the July Crisis and of the events of early August 1914.

Both of them had major engagements all over the world. The 1914 naval campaign was quite large in scope, actually. And there was actually fighting in many of those African colonies, just like in World War II, so I don't see how it doesn't make sense to 'count' the colonies - especially when many of them contributed manpower to their metropolies' forces on the European front lines as well. They were colonies during the Second World War as well so it's silly to be able to count them for one conflict but not the other. ;)

Besides, many countries declared war in the Second World War near the end, in late 1944 and early 1945, and contributed little to no troops or resources to the war effort. Doesn't make much sense to be able to count them either. :p


Well, they are both interesting in their own ways... I was thinking more along the lines that they weren't separate countries and were just forced into the conflict because their homeland was in, while they decided to declare war by themselves for WWII. I was always taught that it was b/c of the whole assassination... not b/c of anything else. Whats the July crisis though?
 
I dont really consider it all that more pointless than any other war.
Not that it matters to me, the tangle of alliances are quite interesting from a political standpoint, and for some reason I find the German- Ottoman relationship to be nothing short of fascinating, but thats just me.
 
Well, they are both interesting in their own ways... I was thinking more along the lines that they weren't separate countries and were just forced into the conflict because their homeland was in, while they decided to declare war by themselves for WWII.
Well, they technically weren't really separate countries in the Second World War either. ;)
Joecoolyo said:
I was always taught that it was b/c of the whole assassination... not b/c of anything else. Whats the July crisis though?
There were a lot of things that were building up in Europe before the First World War that induced the various participants to fight in 1914. There's obviously the nationalism one that every mediocre historian likes to cite first and foremost, compounded by Social Darwinism. There was also the Anglo-German naval arms race of the past ten-odd years (compounded by Anglo-German colonial spheres of influence clashing somewhat, especially in the Middle East), and the Franco-German rivalry over Alsace-Lorraine. Russia and Austria-Hungary were rivals in the Balkans. Italy wanted stuff back from Austria-Hungary. All of the participants had social problems that they could use a jolly nationalistic war to quiet down (nationalism at this juncture trumps class consciousness). There's that nice alliance system as well which linked various parties to one another, so as to keep any one power from being able to go to war with any one other power without other powers intervening. That sort of thing.

The July Crisis was the diplomatic maneuvering in the Great Power capitals that resulted from the Habsburg ultimatum to Serbia following the assassination. Austria-Hungary's foreign ministry saw this as an opportunity to gain a measure of control over Serbia, which was being dangerously assertive in the Balkans and which had previously been a Habsburg puppet state (until 1903). Serbia made an equivocal response over the ultimatum, which allowed the crisis to be prolonged by negotiation. Russia started leaning towards honoring its obligation to its ally (and Balkanian sockpuppet) Serbia. Without Serbia they wouldn't be able to project as much power into the Balkans, which was Russia's main field of interest. They'd also lose a lot of street cred at home, where strikes were increasing in number and intensity. As the Russian government looked to be cornering Austria-Hungary, Germany stepped in to give the Habsburg monarchy a guarantee that they'd back them up, worried that in a one-on-one between the Habsburgs and the Russians, the Habsburgs would lose. (Further, the Germans were worried about their colonial project, the Berlin-Baghdad Railroad, which passed through the Balkans and which would be endangered by any extension of Russian power into the region.) And then France started getting worried that Russia would be alone against Germany, so they started making noises about backing up the Russians over Serbia. And since the German war plan against a Franco-Russian alliance involved invading Belgium to hit the French in the side, the British (who were against anybody getting control of Belgium, because Belgium makes a good springboard for an invasion of Britain) started edging closer to the French. There had been a few diplomatic crises before in the previous years (the 1908-9 Bosnian annexation crisis, the 1911 Moroccan crisis, the 1912 and 1913 standoffs over the Balkan Wars) but where those had been somewhat equivocally resolved this one wasn't, and boom go the cannons.
 
First World War? That was probably the most pointless war in history... I mean really? A Bosnian-Serb nationalist kills the Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria, so lets all fight Germany and the Central Powers! Plus, WWI wasn't even much of a world war, look at these two maps of participants in WWI and WWII
(for the first image, most of Africa were still colonies of Europe, so those couldn't be counted towards it being most of the world at war, just more European powers)
I feel it was pretty pointless in hindsight as well, or maybe the right words are: more unnecessary, avoidable and wasteful than most wars. But the topic is still of interest to us, maybe for these reasons, as all history is of potential interest to us. Regarding the range of the conflict, certainly the vast majority of it was confined to Europe. They never called it WWI until WWII, (fancy that :mischief:) it was simply known as the Great War, supposedly to end all wars. But the degree of participation was still widespread globally, and Dachs already made the point about colonial empires. They were caught up in it as well.

There were engagements worldwide, but to complete the comparison with WWII, it was pretty limited, obviously since Japan was our ally in this one. There is the Middle East campaign in Palestine, the Levant, and Mesopotamia of course, which compares to that of North Africa in WWII, and the Caucasus front, but Gallipoli on the European side was a bigger operation than both of those. The Tanganyika campaign is very notable because at one time it tied down about 6 allied divisions, but other than that there was only a brief resistance in SW Africa (Namibia) and Tsingtao in the far east. Likewise the naval campaign; von Spee's small cruiser squadron had some success in the Pacific before being annihilated at the Falklands. Only the dramatic escape and depredations of the Emden, and a couple of low rate merchant raiders, continued for awhile. Even the submarine war was mostly confined to the western approaches of Europe.

Actually the Seven Years War was the first real world war, with major actions in North America, the Caribbean, India, and even a few places in Africa and the Pacific Rim. Ditto for the American Revolution, though it was confined in Europe to naval engagements or joint operations like Gibraltar. Much more so the Napoleonic Wars; add South America and the Middle East, and you could include the War of 1812.

I think there is a different kind of emphasis when we say WWI was 'pointless', or unnecessary. As Dachs succinctly stated, there are many pertinent reasons it escalated. Europe was a powder keg ready to blow, something probably would have happened sooner or later anyway. I can only speak to what did happen, but the points I want to make are on a different level.

The outcome of these alliances and cross-ultimatums was far out of proportion to the original cassus belli . There was no act of aggression by a major power. It lacked the just cause for the nations of Europe to engage in a dust-up, just like the pre-nationalism alliance wars of previous centuries. With a taste of what war would be like in the modern age starting at Crimea, Solferino, Sadowa and others, one would think a minimum of diplomatic effort could have kept this to a regional dispute with both Russia and Austria-Hungary able to protect their interests, and other parties arbitrating. But Germany was ambitious, and France was spoiling for another round in the Franco-Prussian War, as long as there were some powerful allies to back her. Whatever the reasons, the nations cheerfully mobilized for what they thought would be a short, decisive war; and their leaders failed them again by inadequately anticipating what they were getting in to. As a percentage of those engaged, WWI by far exceeded the casualty rates suffered by the participants of WWII. Even the percentages of Russia and Germany were at least comparable, (not counting Japan - since its involvement in WWI was little more than a police action by comparison). The total death and disabled toll to Britain and its Commonwealth allies was three times as high, and to France there is no comparison. The territory that changed hands, was again completely disproportionate to the cost; a band of mud-soaked fields 30-50 miles in depth on the western front, and mostly marsh and woodland along the borders of the eastern front, before the Russian collapse. What did it gain ? The realignment of Germany's borders to pre-Bismarck days, the collapse of the old orders, and fragmentation of the empires into new states. In its wake came the 'Spanish' influenza epidemic, the Bolshevik revolution, and the rise of Fascism. Making it for me, the most lethal, and futile, conflict in history. Remembrance Day (Veteran's Day in the US) marks its end, but I think the original meaning was lost. No wonder the writers of the day coined the term the 'Lost Generation'. :sad: In 20 years the western democracies would fail to prevent an even bigger war. But this time there was little of the disillusionment and demoralization of WWI, except for the Axis once they started losing badly.

Sorry for getting on the soap box and saying what you all doubtless already know, but I just had to add my own perspective. There aren't many good films on WWI, but of course there is the story told from a German soldiers point of view All Quiet on the Western Front Both the original and the remake with Richard Thomas and Ernest Borgnine are highly recommended, along with Kubrick's Paths of Glory. Even the modest budget Canadian production Passchendaele is worth seeing, that 'miracle' really happened apparently.
 
It's not like Germany could have fought a global war. However hard she tried to expand the conflict and strike at the soft bits of the allies.
 
Mmmm... Good question. I'm between the Augustan Age and the Scientific Revolution. However, the reign of Ashoka or Qin Shi Huangdi would have been also cool periods to live. Finally, the age of the three unifiers of Japan (Oda Nobuanaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu) and the golden age of Angkor under the Khmer Empire are also at the top of my list.
 
After listening to this series of podcasts (easily the best ones I've heard), I've become a big fan of the Byzantine empire. Special focus on the Justinian/Belisarius attempted reconquest of the West, Heraclius and the last of the Roman/Persian wars (after which Islamic Arabs picked up the pieces), and the final siege of Constantinople. Great podcast, suggest it for everyone.

http://www.12byzantinerulers.com/
 
EnlightenmentHK said:
After listening to this series of podcasts (easily the best ones I've heard), I've become a big fan of the Byzantine empire. Special focus on the Justinian/Belisarius attempted reconquest of the West, Heraclius and the last of the Roman/Persian wars (after which Islamic Arabs picked up the pieces), and the final siege of Constantinople. Great podcast, suggest it for everyone.

You were lost and now found!
 
It's not like Germany could have fought a global war. However hard she tried to expand the conflict and strike at the soft bits of the allies.

No - if anything Germany was far more vulnerable globally than the allies were. Their colonies, other than Tanganyika, were easily picked off. They actually had some pretty choice pieces in Africa and the Pacific, but they wrere greedy for more. It was bad strategic foresight to risk losing them all, the only assets that really justified the investment in a High Seas Fleet, which they also lost.
 
vogtmurr said:
No - if anything Germany was far more vulnerable globally than the allies were. Their colonies, other than Tanganyika, were easily picked off. They actually had some pretty choice pieces in Africa and the Pacific, but they wrere greedy for more. It was bad strategic foresight to risk losing them all, the only assets that really justified the investment in a High Seas Fleet, which they also lost.

Germany had written of the colonies in just about any wartime scenario conceivable, they were not allocated serious numbers of troops or anything worth anything at all. It's fortunate that in one case the Hun were to stubborn for their own good :p.

However, Germany did try and expand the war beyond the European theater. She made a number of attempts to woo peripheral nations in on her side to feed on the allies undefended colonies and strike at them in other ways. She was in a position to promise them whatever it was they took, it's not like she was going to be able to hold the accumulated colonies of France and Britain (or even France for that matter). If she could expand the theaters of the war she benefited, if she couldn't well it didn't hurt her she was already at war and didn't really risk anything by being caught in most cases.
 
After listening to this series of podcasts (easily the best ones I've heard), I've become a big fan of the Byzantine empire. Special focus on the Justinian/Belisarius attempted reconquest of the West, Heraclius and the last of the Roman/Persian wars (after which Islamic Arabs picked up the pieces), and the final siege of Constantinople. Great podcast, suggest it for everyone.

http://www.12byzantinerulers.com/

Thanks - great link !
 
Sounds like something to listen to after I finish up with ma boy Treadgold's monster A History of the Byzantine State and Society. ;)
 
Actually the Seven Years War was the first real world war, with major actions in North America, the Caribbean, India, and even a few places in Africa and the Pacific Rim. Ditto for the American Revolution, though it was confined in Europe to naval engagements or joint operations like Gibraltar. Much more so the Napoleonic Wars; add South America and the Middle East, and you could include the War of 1812.


Actually I consider the Mongol invasions to be the first world war, with action taking place in Asia, Africa, Europe, India, Indonesia, Japan, etc. Really the only place that wasn't touched by the Mongolia was the Americas, which in 1200 no one knew about (except the natives :D )
 
I've been looking into the Indo-Greeks as of recent. Some interesting stuff. It's a shame they left so little stuff of use to historians behind!
 
Actually I consider the Mongol invasions to be the first world war, with action taking place in Asia, Africa, Europe, India, Indonesia, Japan, etc. Really the only place that wasn't touched by the Mongolia was the Americas, which in 1200 no one knew about (except the natives :D )

The thing is that the Mongolian invasions weren't one giant war. They were a series of wars that took place over a few centuries. Perhaps you're correct in saying that the Mongols were the first to invade almost every part of the globe, but the Seven Years' War was the first conflict where all of that happened simultaneously and for the same reason.
 
The thing is that the Mongolian invasions weren't one giant war. They were a series of wars that took place over a few centuries. Perhaps you're correct in saying that the Mongols were the first to invade almost every part of the globe, but the Seven Years' War was the first conflict where all of that happened simultaneously and for the same reason.
War of the Grand Alliance pl0x
 
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