[GS] Most OP Civ for GS

Most OP Civ for GS

  • Mali

    Votes: 24 23.3%
  • Ottoman

    Votes: 16 15.5%
  • Inca

    Votes: 10 9.7%
  • Maori

    Votes: 16 15.5%
  • Sweden

    Votes: 5 4.9%
  • Phoenecia

    Votes: 6 5.8%
  • Canada

    Votes: 3 2.9%
  • Hungary

    Votes: 11 10.7%
  • Nubia is Better than All of the Options Above.

    Votes: 12 11.7%

  • Total voters
    103
Mali seems like it'll take a lot of TLC to make work well. It's not like some of the other top tier civs where you have one gimic and exploit it to Earth's end. In other words, Mali has a lot of moving parts and it seems like it's a question of how soon you can get all of them to move together.
The mali have the hansa mechanic: CH gets +2 from each HS.

This means you could an should be getting a minimum of +5 CH (make a diamond of 2 HS 2 Suguba,) and it's trivially easy (especially if you have empty desert to work with) to get them to +8, +10 or more. (Because of the rivers bonus. Sadly they lose the harbor bonus iirc.)
Add the +100% adj card and you're off to the races. You do not need desert to cheese Suguba+HS. This works just as well in the snow. The difference is you can settle two cities, move in reyna and moksha, and just buy what you want, then move to the next one. The ramp time is much faster than Germany because of this + suguba/HS come ancient/classical instead of having to wait for the medieval Hansa.

In the desert, those HS will be getting a significant fraction of 6 faith too if you picked up Desert Folklore.

To be perfectly clear: You could completely remove desert from the map and play mali identical to any other civ, and exploit the infinite gold ATM that sugubas provide.

But knights have gotten more expensive and the AI is dumb.

If you're rushing Terra Cotta warrior, you're going to get a GG by the medieval era and at 25 strength they don't get one shotted anymore.

The major problem with wars is city defenses and the Incan UU can eat through them like a fist through water.
Oh they are amazing units, I know. They just have to live with the vulnerability of being frailer and only 1 range for a medieval unit. You can totally game this against the AI. I'm just speculating that vs humans I don't think they will be the next warcart, although you'd never want to invade an incan player; he would have pulled off some BS like encampments next to Qapacs so he can teleport his double shot Waraks between cities, ensuring you can never ever take them.
 
You just described all the GS civs

Not Kristina. I think you would be hard pressed not to accidentally win a cultural victory with her. It seems like it's almost given to her. She really seems really focused on a victory condition (2 actually) compare to other GS civs who are jack of all trades type. edit: Actually Canada is probably just as strong for cultural as Kristina. I forgot about that mountie. That seems like an insta win. Just keep some space clear for those national parks later in the game.
 
The Inca seem to be quite strong, with Maori being a close second. Ottomans are also looking pretty bonkers, although late with their main bonuses. Inca > Maori > Ottomans > Sweden > Mali > Hungary > Phoenicia > Canada against AI imo
 
Just now playing random deity and got Monty. Went to attack Quinn and he had a lot of troops, banged Amani in Vilnius and for 150 gold I got 3 warriors. Why have we not been using this more?

Magnus? Started playing R&F after the balance patches so he's still good but not busted, but I imagine a lot of people still fall back to him as their first governor.
 
Can't tell you. I'll vote Mali just because I wanna show you folks how it's done.

Canada probably is going to be the worst though.
 
No, Canada's very good on Diety. You're guaranteed to survive the early game and can just focus on booming.

Your build order with Canada could be builder, settler, builder, settler. It's great.
 
Given how denounce happy the AI is, I really don't think it matters that much.
 
Oh, it matters. By the time they denounce you, you'll already have 3 cities with slingers about to be upgraded to archers.

The main advantage of Canda is that for the first 50 turns you can ignore everything military and just BOOM.

That's a HUGE edge, arguably better than Mali (if they start next to Nubia).
 
They sometimes denounce you as soon as you meet with they just don't like you.

Besides, not dying isn't very impressive when a lot of civs are focused on going on the offense.

Also doesn't help with barbs.
 
No, they actually don't. It takes 20-30 turns before denouncing, and by then most of the time they're ALREADY AT WAR WITH SOMEONE ELSE.

Sure Canada is just a generic vanilla civ, but it doesn't have to worry at all about building military in the first 50 turns of the game and that's HUGE.

Barbs are a problem but if you get a start surrounded by city states and other civs it's fine.
 
Not Kristina. I think you would be hard pressed not to accidentally win a cultural victory with her. It seems like it's almost given to her. She really seems really focused on a victory condition (2 actually) compare to other GS civs who are jack of all trades type. edit: Actually Canada is probably just as strong for cultural as Kristina. I forgot about that mountie. That seems like an insta win. Just keep some space clear for those national parks later in the game.

She doesn't have any bonuses to artistic Great People though so filling those Great work slots to theme them in the first place demands some effort on your part.

Compare that to Korea which can win you a Science victory as you watch Netflix.
 
I think people are often a little absorbed with raw yield boosts in vacuum forgetting that you actually need to leverage them to win, and in practice victory conditions matter far more than that 1:1. It's why I dislike the concept of comparing uniques without the proper context. Yield boosts aren't everything.

Mali is definitely powerful, but it is not any stronger than any other civilization. Mali itself has a lot of yields, but they have a significant production malus which reduces the effective benefit. They are greatly dependent on hills and their optimal settling spots are very prone to droughts. Mali can get a very big boost from desert tiles, but desert tiles are also very weak outside of one Petra city. Mali will want to settle some cities near coast to leverage the doubled trade route bonuses, but they have a desert requirement to make use of their abilities so they are very dependent on RNG to make use of both. In the average case, the gold output benefit from all those deserts and hills won't make up for the loss from the naval trade routes. Even if they settle just far enough to get that Harbor later in the game, they would still have to maintain a navy which will put a strain on their resources. It might not be worth it.

And Mali is unquestionably very weak in the early game when gold is minimal and production is paramount. They are very slow to roll out cities, and absolutely NEED Monumentalism while having zero golden age potential in the ancient era. On deity, they'll fall over pretty quickly if not played really well. Kill on sight on multiplayer.

Still played properly they are very potent. That gold doesn't necessarily help you towards any victory, but it can be used to aid you in other victory conditions.

Now look at Canada. Canada doesn't have any direct yield bonuses to regular gameplay, so on first glance they may seem weaker than Mali. However they gain a massive amount of diplomatic favor for completing emergencies which as we've seen occur quite often. They can gain even more favor by trading tundra resource yields. They can gain even more favor on top of that through sheer tourism. All that favor can then be used to sway the world congress in your favor. You can then support or yourself effectively increasing your yields OR put a dent in someone else. We've seen a world congress session which can massively reduce gold and/or faith purchase costs. That would really make Mali hurt in a way no other civ would.

Now look at Phoenicia, another civ without raw yield boosts. They get some trade route bonuses that are guaranteed from their unique, although Mali can potentially gain more from theirs much later in the game. However Phoenicia can really suppress Mali in the early game by having far more efficient settling (they have a malus, Phoenicia has a bonus), settling virtually anywhere and deny settling spots to Mali through their own pressure. A Mali that tries to make use of naval trade routes to double their trade route yields may find themselves overwhelmed by Phoenicia's navy, their trade routes constantly plundered. Modifier bonuses from colonial policies and wonders may overshadow the benefit gained from Mali's core cities, as modifiers become more potent than scalar values as the game progresses.

So no I wouldn't say Mali is OP or stronger than any other civilization in practice. Neither is Canada underpowered. This thread is fun, but ultimately pointless.
 
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Canada can't get declared on in the first 50-100 turns by AI. That's their ONLY bonus early on, but it's huge.

Not as OP as Inca btw, but it makes Canada middle of the pack in Deity play. It means you can focus entirely on building scouts and expanding.
 
Canada can't get declare on in the first 50-100 turns by AI. That's their biggest bonus, but it's huge.

AI usually denounce anyway if they dislike you. This bonus will however protect you indirectly by giving you more time to prepare for an assault.
 
Have you played on Deity? It's a HUGE bonus because it means you don't have to worry about "the dreaded warrior rush," which is the ONLY time an AI can win militarily.

Also, delegations. You can always send a delegation when you meet, which guarantees they WON'T dislike you (until it's too late).
 
Have you played on Deity? It's a HUGE bonus because it means you don't have to worry about "the dreaded warrior rush," which is the ONLY time an AI can win militarily.

I get denounced by hostile civilizations pretty often before a war declaration.

I didn't say it's insignificant, but it's not immunity as you imply.
 
Not in the first 50 turns.

EDIT: It IS immunity, for the first 50 turns, WHICH IS WHEN IT MATTERS.
 
Not in the first 50 turns.

EDIT: It IS immunity, for the first 50 turns, WHICH IS WHEN IT MATTERS.

I've definitely been denounced by an AI in the first 50 turns. Yes, they do very often surprise war you early, so it will definitely help early on (especially if they don't have special AI for it - I can imagine if they don't code it special you're going to see an AI lining up their troops at your border, and just sit there because the code doesn't let them denounce you, but they're not going to be able to surprise war you). But it definitely is not guaranteed protection for 50 turns.
 
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