Most useful wonders
- Thread starter madscientist
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obsolete
Deity
Very strange you go after this gimmick and yet you never care for Angko Wat...
In any case, Parentheon is one where I am always torn. It's nice to have double GPs, but it causes so much pollution often it's almost not really worth it. According to the algorithm, it should contrib just 1 pt for Great Artist probability, but I noticed, even with 10 pts for Prophets, I am getting far, far more artists than 10-to-1. I have suspected a bug in the code somewhere for a while now on this.
Or I am just the unluckiest player every time with this junker. Often when I built it, I am actually HOPING it becomes obsolete ASAP! How many times do u build a wonder and expect that, let me ask you...
Now if you are going for cultural, then perhaps it has its uses.
Each wonder producing thing produces an equal chance of having that type of GP generated, regardless of the amount of GP points it generates. So, let's say your 10 prophet points are generated from 2 wonders and 2 specialists. You've got parthenon, presumably also national epic. So, that's 4 things generating prophet points, 2 things generating artist points, so a 1/3 chance of each GP being an artist, 2/3 chance prophet (even though the artist things are generating 3 points as opposed to 10 for the prophets).
Also, with the most recent patches, the obsolesence of a wonder will not eliminate it's GP points or it's contribution of a "share" in the determination of the type of GP generated.
Also, with the most recent patches, the obsolesence of a wonder will not eliminate it's GP points or it's contribution of a "share" in the determination of the type of GP generated.
obsolete
Deity
I understand how the pts system works, this is why I think there is a flaw. Here is a typical example of my games...
I have parentheon = 1 pts for artist.
Ankor Wat, Oracle, StoneHenge = 3 pts for prophet.
6 Priests running = 6 pts for prophet
GL = 1 pts for scientist (lets assume the 2 free specialists don't count, but maybe they do.. let's be conservative here...)
That's still 1 pt Arist, 9 pt Prophet, and 1 pt Scientist.
So I'm still 10-to-1 against for getting Artists, yet I seem to be getting them almost 50% of the time for some stupid reason in this case. Now maybe I'm getting a little perception biased, but I am definitely always getting what seems more than my fair share of stupid artists.
I understand of course that you can't control RANDOM draws, and that is perhaps one of my gripes about this whole GP issue. Sometimes you can build so right, but you are screwed by the dice gods every friggen time. Nothing much you can do about it I guess.
I suppose, if i play another thousand games things will adjust to the norm better.
I have parentheon = 1 pts for artist.
Ankor Wat, Oracle, StoneHenge = 3 pts for prophet.
6 Priests running = 6 pts for prophet
GL = 1 pts for scientist (lets assume the 2 free specialists don't count, but maybe they do.. let's be conservative here...)
That's still 1 pt Arist, 9 pt Prophet, and 1 pt Scientist.
So I'm still 10-to-1 against for getting Artists, yet I seem to be getting them almost 50% of the time for some stupid reason in this case. Now maybe I'm getting a little perception biased, but I am definitely always getting what seems more than my fair share of stupid artists.
I understand of course that you can't control RANDOM draws, and that is perhaps one of my gripes about this whole GP issue. Sometimes you can build so right, but you are screwed by the dice gods every friggen time. Nothing much you can do about it I guess.
I suppose, if i play another thousand games things will adjust to the norm better.
I guess I wasn't clear in my last message. It doesn't go by how many artist POINTS there are compared to others. It goes by how many artist THINGS there are. Each point-generating thing affects the probabilities equally, regardless of whether it contributes 1, 2 or 3 points.
There is absolutely no necessity to build the parthenon in your GP farm. Just chop build it in another city that won't pop any GPs. You are playing maps with some available forests, aren't you?
obsolete
Deity
Yes, that's the whole POINT of the thing.
I have only 1 THING generating great artists, yet 10 more things generating other GPs. Yet I keep getting the dreaded artists.
And yes, there is a pts system used for randomly determining what GP comes forth. It is not the +2 you get from wonders, it is just 1 pt per wonder. So one building = 1 pt for chance of getting artist, while contributing +2 GPs, to the pool, it is still only 1 pt for the PROBABILITY. So no matter what way you look at it, something just seems wrong. In fact I just played another game this morning, made the parethenon after thinking of this thread, and the same bs continued. I kept getting more than my share of artists.
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
those 2 specs from gl contrib. to the gp pool. Same for the priest from toa, same for the specs. from statue of liberty.
And the ga problem is false(and I'm talking after a game where I had 5 gas in a row with <25% chance of getting one). You just notice the ones that popup(much like I do); you don't notice the games where thankfully you don't get any ga out of your 10-15 gp, so it balances up
And the ga problem is false(and I'm talking after a game where I had 5 gas in a row with <25% chance of getting one). You just notice the ones that popup(much like I do); you don't notice the games where thankfully you don't get any ga out of your 10-15 gp, so it balances up
I've found sometimes it's better to take Monarchy with the Oracle that way you can run Heriditary Rule and build your cities to astronomical sizes early. It really helps if you're trying to run a GPF or max out tiles after cottage spamming.
I also like to grab the Great Library in my capital or GPF.
Pyramids I rarely build unless I have stone, but to be honest I like sticking with Heriditary Rule early so it's not a big deal.
Depending on the map, the Great Lighthouse is either skipped or a must.
I also like to grab the Great Library in my capital or GPF.
Pyramids I rarely build unless I have stone, but to be honest I like sticking with Heriditary Rule early so it's not a big deal.
Depending on the map, the Great Lighthouse is either skipped or a must.
Early game:
Oracle. Although lately I've started prioritizing quicker rushes and expansion over it. It can make a large difference in the early game, so I'm not so sure about all those hammers anymore...
Mid game:
I usually focus more on other things, national wonders, infrastructure, military. I used to love the hanging gardens (any wonder that lasts the entire game is nice), but just stopped bothering with it.
Late game:
Most. Statue of Liberty is great, and I generally go for it unless I'm looking for a quick domination win. It works well with a CE since I prioritize the tech anyway. Can really add a kick to your empire.
Pentagon, if only to keep others from getting it. It depends on victory, though.
3 Gorges is a so-so now. I'd rather just spend the turns building hydro/coal plants where needed than bother with this one.
Space elevator for the obvious reason.
The 3 resource wonders just to keep everyone else's hands off them.
I focus more on them in the late game just because I have the spare production at that point, and if I'm not aiming for domination, then I don't need to prioritize military as much in my production centers.
Oracle. Although lately I've started prioritizing quicker rushes and expansion over it. It can make a large difference in the early game, so I'm not so sure about all those hammers anymore...
Mid game:
I usually focus more on other things, national wonders, infrastructure, military. I used to love the hanging gardens (any wonder that lasts the entire game is nice), but just stopped bothering with it.
Late game:
Most. Statue of Liberty is great, and I generally go for it unless I'm looking for a quick domination win. It works well with a CE since I prioritize the tech anyway. Can really add a kick to your empire.
Pentagon, if only to keep others from getting it. It depends on victory, though.
3 Gorges is a so-so now. I'd rather just spend the turns building hydro/coal plants where needed than bother with this one.
Space elevator for the obvious reason.
The 3 resource wonders just to keep everyone else's hands off them.
I focus more on them in the late game just because I have the spare production at that point, and if I'm not aiming for domination, then I don't need to prioritize military as much in my production centers.
futurehermit
Deity
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In my recent space win I found myself with the majority of the post-medieval wonders because:
1) I had a great tech pace and was getting to techs first (key for space race win imo)
and
2) I had a nice handful of super-production cities planned for later space parts (key for space race win imo)
So, imo, if things are going well in your space race pursuit, you should end up with a nice handful of late game wonders.
Statue of liberty and The Pentagon are by far and away my favourites.
1) I had a great tech pace and was getting to techs first (key for space race win imo)
and
2) I had a nice handful of super-production cities planned for later space parts (key for space race win imo)
So, imo, if things are going well in your space race pursuit, you should end up with a nice handful of late game wonders.
Statue of liberty and The Pentagon are by far and away my favourites.
IbnKhaldun
Chieftain
"Useful" is such a strange word. Is it the same as cost effective? Is it the same as being universally applicable? Does it rely on other circumstances of the game to be effective?
While this might seem like petty semantics, different adjectives would produce very different choices here!
With that in mind I will say the three most "useful" wonders for myself is:
1) Versailles
To be frank I am surprised this hasn't showed up in this discussion yet. There are few games in which I am simply making so much money that I just don't need further reduced maintenance costs. Coupled with the HUGE cultural output of this wonder, Versailles is perfect for a GE rush in a recently captured capital or really any other circumstance. The bonus with marble is nice too considering the relatively high cost of the wonder. Securing marble through conquest or trade by the time you get Divine Right is not particularily difficult.
2) Great Library
Kind of a no-brainer. The usefulness of this wonder cannot really be overstated. The scientists' raw beakers are already a huge advantage, but considering the ease of which this is leveraged with Representation, Sistine Chapel (for cultural weiners), Oxford or the three 'P' Great Person modifiers (Parthenon, Pacifism and Philosophical) really outlines the universality of this wonder.
3) Stonehenge
I love Stonehenge. I am normally a religious weiner and I still love Stonehenge. Cheap, rarely prioritized by the AI and EARLY. You don't need stone, you don't need industrious; you just need to plan for it and maybe chop a few trees. Stonehenge is essentially the "Creative" trait in a can. Furthermore the added synergy with Charismatic leaders, Egyptians (Obelisks WHAT?!?!) or those who wish to expand early is just icing on the cake.
While this might seem like petty semantics, different adjectives would produce very different choices here!
With that in mind I will say the three most "useful" wonders for myself is:
1) Versailles
To be frank I am surprised this hasn't showed up in this discussion yet. There are few games in which I am simply making so much money that I just don't need further reduced maintenance costs. Coupled with the HUGE cultural output of this wonder, Versailles is perfect for a GE rush in a recently captured capital or really any other circumstance. The bonus with marble is nice too considering the relatively high cost of the wonder. Securing marble through conquest or trade by the time you get Divine Right is not particularily difficult.
2) Great Library
Kind of a no-brainer. The usefulness of this wonder cannot really be overstated. The scientists' raw beakers are already a huge advantage, but considering the ease of which this is leveraged with Representation, Sistine Chapel (for cultural weiners), Oxford or the three 'P' Great Person modifiers (Parthenon, Pacifism and Philosophical) really outlines the universality of this wonder.
3) Stonehenge
I love Stonehenge. I am normally a religious weiner and I still love Stonehenge. Cheap, rarely prioritized by the AI and EARLY. You don't need stone, you don't need industrious; you just need to plan for it and maybe chop a few trees. Stonehenge is essentially the "Creative" trait in a can. Furthermore the added synergy with Charismatic leaders, Egyptians (Obelisks WHAT?!?!) or those who wish to expand early is just icing on the cake.
obsolete
Deity
I'd like to get hanging gardens, but on Monarch+ I don't bother. AI tends to prioritize this, and very rarely do I get it, usualy by accident when the AIs are slow for some reason. I tend go gun for GW, which is only for G pts, and to keep barbs off my back which lets me get everything hooked up and running, as well as expanding without the need for foot soldiers. It's a trade off, axes for war units, or axes for the wall. So far I don't mind the wall as the benefits last forever, but often some AI's will go after this one right off the bat so you can't really stall.
My main monarch system always gets me GL, GW, Pyramids, and either the Paretheonon OR Temple of Atrius. I Also manage to get Oracle & Stonehenge at the same time. Though recently I got Hanging gardens ontop of all this, and then continued with my Ankor Wat, etc. The only problem is my initial expansion is a bit slow, for obvious reasons.
For another obvoius point, this is of course when starting off industrial or it would never work on these levels.
My main monarch system always gets me GL, GW, Pyramids, and either the Paretheonon OR Temple of Atrius. I Also manage to get Oracle & Stonehenge at the same time. Though recently I got Hanging gardens ontop of all this, and then continued with my Ankor Wat, etc. The only problem is my initial expansion is a bit slow, for obvious reasons.
For another obvoius point, this is of course when starting off industrial or it would never work on these levels.
SnowlyWhite
Emperor
Versailles - problem is you need divine right for it, which is something I usually end the game without.
On high lvls., after you've rushed for liberalism, you start backtracking techs. However, I've found in 9/10 of the situations that I don't have any spare techs left for trading for divine right unless I play pangea and everyone has the same religion and we're a happy trading bunch. Divine right is a tech. that gives you access to 2 wonders(1 rather crappy, namely the minaret - since you usually go with free religion for diplo bonus which cancels the whole wonder) one of it being versailles. And if you put beaker on beaker and see how much commerce it spares from maintenance, vs. how many beakers you'd spend if you research for it manually(and bare in mind that usually the ai prioritizes this while you rush for liberalism, which means usually it'll hold no tech trade value since everyone has it) you'll notice it's better without versailles.
Even taking in acct. it reduces turns from mil. trad., and I still think it ain't worth the hassle. Especially if you're going domi(thus few turns left for the wonder to actually work) and need cav. as fast as possible to capitalize on it. And if you don't go domi, you don't need either divine right, nor mil. trad., so...
On high lvls., after you've rushed for liberalism, you start backtracking techs. However, I've found in 9/10 of the situations that I don't have any spare techs left for trading for divine right unless I play pangea and everyone has the same religion and we're a happy trading bunch. Divine right is a tech. that gives you access to 2 wonders(1 rather crappy, namely the minaret - since you usually go with free religion for diplo bonus which cancels the whole wonder) one of it being versailles. And if you put beaker on beaker and see how much commerce it spares from maintenance, vs. how many beakers you'd spend if you research for it manually(and bare in mind that usually the ai prioritizes this while you rush for liberalism, which means usually it'll hold no tech trade value since everyone has it) you'll notice it's better without versailles.
Even taking in acct. it reduces turns from mil. trad., and I still think it ain't worth the hassle. Especially if you're going domi(thus few turns left for the wonder to actually work) and need cav. as fast as possible to capitalize on it. And if you don't go domi, you don't need either divine right, nor mil. trad., so...
generally i agree that most of the wonders are just a waste of time... but i can't help that i just hate to pump dozens of axemen from the start! i really hope BTS will fix it so the game will be more balanced for less warmonger inclined players :/
futurehermit
Deity
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On high levels the AI simply outproduces and outecons you. Warmongering--at least initially--is really the only way you can compete unless you plan on a cultural victory, which the AI sucks at--but might get better at in BtS (beware!)
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
i specialize in supplying oddball situations that don't apply to every game. for cultural victory, <3 parthenon and i generally just avoid researching chemistry so that i don't obsolete it. i just force my workers to walk without railroads, and put my faith in diplomacy to not get killed. does that always work? well, no, sometimes i do get killed and have to start over.
nah, you don't secure the marble for Versailles by conquest. you secure Versailles by conquest! sometimes they'll build it too close to you, or they all take forever and a day to build it, but i love it when they spend the hammers on that one for me. i really hate building it too early and then facing regret later when my empire sprawls a different direction and i can't move it. same with forbidden palace. i end up moving my palace sometimes if i'm not in state property yet since i can't move the other(s). Versailles very often works out that it's in a convenient spot when they build it. great library and the continental ones, not so much.
in a cultural game, i flipped a city from washington that was in a spot i wanted but he beat me to. i should have razed it ... it had his national epic in it, and since mine wasn't finished yet, his came with it! grrrrrrrrr. i had to gift the city back, and therefore couldn't ever flip it again, and wasn't about to go to war with the guy. it was fun watching it revolt over and over and over again tho, he got no use out of it.
my revenge was ... later i flipped his city with chicken pizza! useless, but i laughed so hard! he spent the hammers, and i got to gloat. true, i didn't get the spot i'd wanted down where atlanta was. but i found a way to undermine his defenses everywhere *giggle*.
i just have gigglefits every time i capture that thing. "this really did you a lot of good didn't it?" most recent sucker was saladin a few days ago.
futurehermit
Deity
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Parthenon is amazing if used properly. The AI also rarely ever gets it before 1AD and often not before 500AD so you can really nab it at your leisure, especially if you have marble or are industrious. Make sure to put it in a production city if you don't want the GA to spawn.
Somehow I almost always find myself building oracle anyway, eventought I don´t usually plan to...And I don´t do priesthood too early.
One game in Immortal was strange...Cyrus was the leader...I planned only for Great wall and Pyramids (my second city built both, while capital build immortals) everything went so smoothly that I had enough military to take down two neightbors and build also Oracle, stonehenge, great libryary, hanging gardens, angor wat, Chzen itza, colossus, great lighthouse and university of sangore...
Sometimes it happens, that AI can´t get things rolling...other time in immortal level I can´t build any wonders...
Pyramids are superior and I like them the most
Hanging gardens are second...
Other favourites are statue of liberty, great lighthouse (if coastal cities) great libruary, pentagon
One game in Immortal was strange...Cyrus was the leader...I planned only for Great wall and Pyramids (my second city built both, while capital build immortals) everything went so smoothly that I had enough military to take down two neightbors and build also Oracle, stonehenge, great libryary, hanging gardens, angor wat, Chzen itza, colossus, great lighthouse and university of sangore...
Sometimes it happens, that AI can´t get things rolling...other time in immortal level I can´t build any wonders...
Pyramids are superior and I like them the most
Hanging gardens are second...
Other favourites are statue of liberty, great lighthouse (if coastal cities) great libruary, pentagon
Charou
Warlord
In one of my last games, I tried the Sankore + Minaret combo.
Really good wonders as long as you get them together.
Playing Isabella with stone, so very synergical.
It really helped staging my economy while I was building banks and universities and recovering from war.
Delayed SciMet, ( I just cannot trust those scientists : knowledge belongs to monks ).
This strat is quite hammer expensive, but fun way to keep the lead.
Really good wonders as long as you get them together.
Playing Isabella with stone, so very synergical.
It really helped staging my economy while I was building banks and universities and recovering from war.
Delayed SciMet, ( I just cannot trust those scientists : knowledge belongs to monks ).
This strat is quite hammer expensive, but fun way to keep the lead.
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