MSTK1 - Monarch (Training?) Game

Our scouts will help us get the AT techs early, from huts and trading. However I believe you can't get the tech you are researching from a hut. ie that means if we want to get the Great Library we shouldn't start our research with Alphabet (is that right?).

An alternative to the GL is Philosophy/Republic. If we get that before Monarchy it will save us one period of anarchy. It can be a bit tough managing Republic early in the game but it still beats anarchy. Of course if Monarchy popped up early that would change our plans.

If you want to go first Symphony D that's OK by me. 20 turns first then 10 each sounds good. I'm available for a turn early. MSTK can pick the start, and post a roster.
 
Start 3 looks like we're at the southwest corner of the world. THe ocean should be no more than ten tiles southwest. Maybe this is a "dead end"? Then again, if we want a coast, it could be advantageous.

I'll leave the final vote to you guys, but I'm voting for #5, here.

I agree with Bede in saying that we should move one tile north before settling.

THe roster as posted on the first post should do fine, right?
 
Sorry mates that I stalled you :( Didn't believe my vote counts :) Well after solid hour of staring at screen and looking at SS...

nr 5:
Food is there, and so is water so we can grow to 12 without Aqueduct. Gold is there but it'll take some time to grow so far to get it, although I don't think it is that important early on. Food is I guess... I'm not sure if we can build city at the spot or do we have to move settler NW in order to get closer to river (does that water pool counts as water as in we don't need aqueduct)

nr3:
is food weaker but it has quite some shileds + luxuries although we would still have to move settler west to get closer to them.

Looking at the map nr 3 looks way better IMHO. We are in the corner so no one can come from behind and I like that :)

All that being said I think I like nr3 the most :)

Please disregard all errors that I might have written here. As you know I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to this game so all crtique and ideas are more than welcome !

I'm OK with any other ideas, ways, builds you want to take. Build orders are not my speciality so Im afraid someone will have to tell me what to build at the start and what tech are we going after...

Thx "Whomp" I surely hope I wont mess upp anything :)
 
Start 3 looks like we're at the southwest corner of the world. THe ocean should be no more than ten tiles southwest. Maybe this is a "dead end"? Then again, if we want a coast, it could be advantageous.
Comparison of the minimap shows the southernmost part of S3 is 17 pixels from the bottom, while S5 is 18 pixels from the bottom. S3 has ocean visible off to the left, S5 has ocean visible off to the top right. They're pretty well comparable in terms of location, so if a dead end is the worry, I'd say they're both at the bottom of the continent.

Using the current roster:

TC216
MjM
Dalgo
Bede
Symphony D.
Melhisedek
MSTK
With me starting would also put you up as second, and you're going to be gone, yes?

Vote's 3 for S3, 2 for S5. MjM and TC216 have yet to weigh in.
 
America is a tough start, no matter how you play them, and if you don't have a opening food bonus it gets even tougher.

Given the location on the mini-map we will only need two scouts, one east bound and one northbound. Too many scouts hurt the budget as you can't use them for MP's or settler escorts so you have to build the warriors anyway.

I am strongly opposed to building the Great Library. Monarch AI's are poor researchers They have no free settlers so their expansion is slow, and their science spending is abysmal. We should have no problem out-researching the other nations if we use the riverside commerce to its fullest.

The relatively slow pace also means that trading strategies have to be adjusted, as two-fer deals are few and far between.
 
Regarding scouts - they shouldn't cost us anything in unit support. Under despotism the first 4 units per town are free. So even with 2 mp's we could have up to 2 scouts per town (we still have to build them of course).

The benefits of being expansionist come early so we should take full advantage of that. If we are on the same continent as other expansionist civs they will be chasing down the goody huts too so we should grab as many as we can early. If we get any warriors from the huts they can be sent home for mp duty. When we do need more troops for a war we can disband scouts to keep inside the unit support limit.

Also we will still lose some scouts to barbs, even at sedentary. By the way, does the sedentary setting change the frequency of huts at all?
 
Part of my preference for S3 over S5 is this is ostensibly a training game and you're not always going to get a cow, or a river, or what have you, unless you really look for them. Always wanting a food-rich start, or even just one cow or wheat, does tend to restrict playing ability. A lot of the time you're going to get something decent, but bland. 3 happens to be decent but sort of interesting despite that. That said, it's tied 3-for-3 so lets have TC216 put in the tie-breaker vote.

Also we will still lose some scouts to barbs, even at sedentary. By the way, does the sedentary setting change the frequency of huts at all?
Expansionist civs don't ever pop barbs from huts, IIRC.

I also don't see much reason to build GLib at Monarch. Republic Slingshot might be worth a spin, though we'd have to get Alphabet and such. I don't know America's starting techs off-hand though.
 
TC216 seems to have been eaten by a horcrux, it appears :( He hasn't posted for a while. Maybe we should re-arrange the roster if TC216 doesn't show up anytime soon?

And, since I read the Wonder Addiction warning, I have stayed clear from Great Library forever. It's like picking up a joint or something, now :p

Also, any body of water less than 21 tiles is considered freshwater.
 
Alright, to help us out of our seeming impasse I went and ran both S3 and S5 for twenty turns and kept logs and images. I'm putting both up for review and we can vote on them again, because both are fairly different.

I, personally, am majorly in favor of S3 at this point.
 
Turnlog:
Turn 01 / 4000 BC - Move Scout 1W,1N, discovers a gold hill and coast. Move Worker 1E onto BG, discovers plains. Move Settler 1SE.
Turn 02 / 3950 BC - Washington founded, starts work on Scout. Worker begins mining. Move Scout 1NE,1E onto gold mountain, discovers more plains, game, new river. Research Alphabet at 90%, due in 45. My logic here is that although it only saves 5 turns initially, that's a few more beakers every turn and that'll add up as Washington grows and we get more cities.
Turn 03 / 3900 BC - Move Scout 1NE,1N and spot Ivory and a goody hut.
Turn 04 / 3850 BC - Pop the goody hut, get a city, rename to Philadelphia. Philadelphia starts on a Scout.
Turn 05 / 3800 BC - Spot another Ivory tile North of Philadelphia.
Turn 06 / 3750 BC - Mine completes at Washington, start road. Spot way more Ivory near Philadelphia - likely we have the world's entire supply, Statue of Zeus very possible.
Turn 07 / 3700 BC - Washington completes a Scout, it heads South, starts another. Meet Inca - they have nothing we don't and are Cautious.
Turn 08 / 3650 BC - South Scout encounters a cow at the mouth of a river.
Turn 09 / 3600 BC - Philadelphia completes a Scout which heads East, starts on a Worker.
Turn 10 / 3550 BC - East Scout encounters 2 Ivory East of Philadelphia. WTH is with this start? South Scout reports another cow Southeast of Washington. North Scout finds a goody hut and a cultural border.
Turn 11 / 3500 BC - Washington completes last Scout, starts on Settler. South Scout discovers a goody hut. East Scout discovers another cultural border. North Scout pops a hut and gets Ceremonial Burial.
Turn 12 / 3450 BC - Washington grows to Size 2, due to grow in 10. Settler will complete in 7. Shift to Warrior due in 2. South Scout pops hut, gets maps - silks nearby. We meet the French - they are Polite and have 10 Gold and Alphabet, but lack Pottery or Ceremonial Burial. We also meet the Netherlands, they are Cautious and have 10 Gold and Alphabet, but lack Masonry and Cermonial Burial. We sell the French Pottery for Alphabet and 10 Gold. Pottery's cheap and considering the Inca are somewhere nearby and have it, it's a pretty good deal. We run for Writing at 100%, due in 32.
Turn 13 / 3400 BC - Complete mine at Washington, start road. Inca have learned Cermonial Burial (only could've gotten 10 Gold for it anyway).
Turn 14 / 3350 BC - Washington completes a Warrior. Settler will take 6 turns, 8 turns left to grow - start another Warrior. Philadelphia completes a Worker, starts a Warrior.
Turn 15 / 3300 BC - North Scout finds a goody hut near Dutch capitol. South Scout finds Furs far Southeast of Washington.
Turn 16 / 3250 BC - Washington finishes Warrior, starts Settler. East Scout spots Inca border. North Scout pops the hut and gets a Warrior. At -1 GPT. Going to disband Hut Warrior to save money - Conscript level is pretty worthless anyway, and it's far away.
Turn 17 / 3200 BC - Disband Hut Warrior, move Scouts. Dutch have Bronze Working, 10 Gold. The won't trade for Ceremonial Burial and all our Gold. Sell Masonry for Bronze Working and 10 Gold, which is a pretty sweet deal considering both the French and Inca have Masonry anyway.
Turn 18 / 3150 BC - Unit movement.
Turn 19 / 3100 BC - Philadelphia completes a Warrior, starts on a Worker. Unit movement.
Turn 20 / 3050 BC - Unit movement. We're at -1 GPT, oh noes.

Known World:

(Click to Enlarge)

Notes: I really just plain like this better than S5. Extra city, similar techs, further progress, more known AIs to trade with, not stuck on a peninsula, four luxuries nearby, and no real lack of food - a perfect Settler Factory is right next to the capitol. It just strikes me as an all around better start, if not a better start location.

Dotmap: Initial dotmap I came up with. Highest priority for the soon-to-be-completed Settler would be Blue Dot. It's got the river, the cow, the BGs, and the forests to become a 4-turn Settler Factory. Green Dot has a cow as well, but low shields, so it falls somewhere along the lines. Purple Dot has good shields, and between the river and the gold hill, pretty awesome commerce - ideal Colossus site (I demand that city be New York). Red Dot is a good defensive location, has good BGs and silk access, and it pretty close to the French capitol for a later strike, since they're way too close to allow to live forever. The rest like Dark Red Dot, Yellow Dot, and Pink Dot are pretty much fill-in cities. Doing some recon of the areas West and Southeast of Philly would be nice too, as I was sort of in a rush to get out and explore.
 
Turnlog:
Turn 01 / 4000 BC - Move Scout 1N,1NE and discover coast, cow, and river. Move Settler and Worker 1N.
Turn 02 / 3950 BC - Found Washington, start work on Scout. Move Worker 1NW onto cow. Move Scout 1NW,1N onto hill near Gold Mountain, spot goody hut at the mouth of the river. Start a run for Alphabet at 90% Research. My logic here is that although it only saves 5 turns initially, that's a few more beakers every turn and that'll add up as Washington grows and we get more cities.
Turn 03 / 3900 BC - Worker begins irrigating cow. Scout moves 1E,1NE to goody hut. We get a Warrior. He goes home to Washington for MP duty.
Turn 04 / 3850 BC - Unit movement.
Turn 05 / 3800 BC - Unit movement.
Turn 06 / 3750 BC - Irrigation finishes, start a road. Scout finds another goody hut, pop it and learn Ceremonial Burial.
Turn 07 / 3700 BC - Washington finishes a Scout, starts another. This Scout goes West.
Turn 08 / 3650 BC - Washington grows to size 2, Research at 100% - Alphabet in 26. Road completed, Worker goes to start a mine on a river BG. East Scout finds Silks and a goody hut.
Turn 09 / 3600 BC - West Scout pops goody hut, learns Warrior Code and discovers a second silk tile.
Turn 10 / 3550 BC - North Scout spots a gray border and farms to the far North - likely India.
Turn 11 / 3500 BC - Washington completes another Scout, starts on Granary. We're running a deficit of -1 GPT but a road will fix that soon enough. Contact India. They have Alphabet and 10 Gold, but lack Warrior Code and Masonry. They'll give up Alphabet and 10 Gold for Masonry, or give Alphabet for Warrior Code and 9 Gold. Considering Writing has a cost of 8, and Alphabet is 5, odds are running 100% won't have a huge impact. Scale Research back to 90% for now to get 0 GPT, buy Alphabet for Warrior Code and 9 Gold. Go for Writing at 90%, due in 50 turns. Again, we could run lower and save cash, but those beakers stack up and it'll help us when we get more cities online shortly.
Turn 12 / 3450 BC - Ghandi asks us to move and is polite, do so. Move units. Culture expands.
Turn 13 / 3400 BC - Mine finishes, start road. Washington grows to size 3. South Scout spots another cow, but it's far from fresh water access. West Scout finds the coast and Wheat, but it's likewise far from fresh water. Plenty of BGs around though.
Turn 14 / 3350 BC - West Scout finds a goody hut and pops it, gets 25 Gold. South Scout finds Tundra.
Turn 15 / 3300 BC - South Scout spots another cow, and lots of tundra. Road finishes, Worker goes to mine another BG.
Turn 16 / 3250 BC - Unit movement.
Turn 17 / 3200 BC - South Scout finds a goody hut, pops it, we get a Warrior. It goes home for MP.
Turn 18 / 3150 BC - Washington grows to size 4. Luxuries at 10%, running at -2 GPT with 25 Gold.
Turn 19 / 3100 BC - Unit movement.
Turn 20 / 3050 BC - Mine finishes at Washington, start road.

Known World:

(Click to Enlarge)

Notes: Warrior is on automove to Washington for MP duty. Scouts are not on automove. Washington is currently running at 7 SPT and 4 FPT. Next improvement should be a Mine / Road on the tile 1NW of the cow by the river. This will net some more commerce and means once Washington hits 5 Pop it will have 8 SPT and 5 FPT, making it a 4-turn Settler Factory. Granary is due to complete in 2 turns. A Settler is advised, then Wealth or a unit until Washington reaches size 4, at which point Settlers from here on out.

Dotmap: Drawn up a rough dotmap. Sites are designed to maximize water usage and minimize land waste. Dark Red Dot isn't optimally placed for that, so much as to become a second Settler factory, though it'd take a lot of time to set up. You could place a costal city 1N,1NE of it, and another city 1S,1SW to grab the cow and BGs (Yellow Dot and Green Dot, respectively). In fact, they're far superior. Ignore Dark Red Dot entirely.

In terms of priority, I'd say Blue Dot, Green Dot, Purple Dot, Red Dot, and then Yellow Dot.
 
nr 3 with all my heart :)
More room and more rivers, plenty of food and lux. I like it :)
 
Either one is winnable at any level.

Play on Three by all means.
 
Basic Guidemap for the Settler Factory
MSTK1-PP3050.png

C - City Location. Washington completes a Settler in 2 turns (2950). This will arrive at the location and be founded 2 turns later (2850 - has to cross the river in 2950, move 3 tiles in 2900, found 2850).
1 - The Worker will complete the road in 1 turn (3000). Start a mine which will finish in 4 turns (2800).
2 - Move the Worker to the cow and irrigate, then road.
3 - Mine, road.
4 - Mine, road.

The Worker top center you can see the disc of can probably help speed things up after it completes the road to Washington. These combined with some forest / grassland micromanaging should enable a 4-turn Settler factory.

Other Notes: I was sorta hoping for the Republic Slingshot. May/may not be possible by the time Writing is gotten.

And the save:
 
I vote for 3 also. Ivory is the clincher, the Statue of Zeus is only 200 shields and you don't even need horses. The required tech is Mathematics. The Ancient Cavalry is like a swordsman on horseback with an extra hit point thrown in, the best mounted unit until Chivalry.
 
Yeah, actually, that is true. At most it'll make 4 FPT and 8 SPT. 1 FPT short. :twitch:

Guess we'll need some auxilliary cities on Settler production as well.
 
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