Multipolarity IV Game Thread

[Double A]

It's his swiss bank account.

 

[arya126]

Probably a really big and powerful Zeppelin?

 

[Nukeknockout]

what is a zeppelin dreadnought? it had to be good, if it was valued at 14 TRILLION dollars.

The points of comparison:

Zeppelin Destroyer:
60 cm aluminum outer skin
4 ballistic turrets - 1x105mm or 3x76mm or 4x57mm
20 23mm point defense chainguns
2 Long-range missile batteries (air to air and air to surface)
10 Carried VTOL/Helicopter
20 Engines

Zeppelin Carrier:
10 cm aluminum outer skin
70 23mm point defense chainguns
8 Long-range missile batteries (air to air and air to surface)
80 Carried VTOL/Helicopter
60 Engines

Zeppelin Dreadnought:
250 cm Megaspider-silk reinforced titanium outer skin (Equivalent to 812mm steel)
8 1x320mm turrets
16 1x160mm turrets
42 3x76mm turrets
296 23mm point defense chainguns
8 Carried VTOL/Helicopter
466 Engines

In essence, as far as relative to the Triple Alliance military, the Zeppelin Dreadnought is the Eclipse.

Weapons used against the dreadnought without notable effect:

Bolt II "Zeppelin Popper" surface-launched cruise missile - separates into mini-missiles to confuse target defenses, then peppers target with a shower of white-hot steel balls with the intent to brush past the outer layer and puncture internal gas bags.

Bolt II(A) "Voodoo" air-launched strike missile - a version of the above missile modified to be launched from fighter planes. So named due to the tendency of aircraft carrying them to be immediately targeted by all hostiles in the battlespace.

105mm Cannon - 105mm AP/HE/Airburst shells.

76mm Cannon - mounted three to a turret, 76mm AP/HE/Airburst shells.

57mm(4) Rapid Gun - mounted four to a turret, each gun fires four times before needing reload, 57mm AP/HE/Airburst shells.

8.11mm, 15mm, and 23mm rapid-fire high velocity small arms.

 

[Mathalamus]

so, basically its a possibly airborne ship that sounds incredibly impractical. you can build a number of destroyers with the resources of one dreadnought.

its the same way the Executor in star wars was impractical. it wasn't necessary, when more star destroyers can be built, and do their job quite well.

 

[arya126]

Dude its Star Wars. 'Impractical' means nothing when you already have kilometer long star destroyers flying around. It was in fact very practical, and those sorts of ship only get destroyed for plot related reasons like the hero protagonist on a last ditch mission to destroy it.

Also, larger ships such as a super star destroyer or a Zeppelin Dreadnought most certainly are useful. In terms of pure firepower the amount of destroyers that might destroy them means they aren't worth it, true. But you are ignoring the psychological impact on those who fight them. Thats like a high school football team facing a professional football team. If the NFL team plays a team every day, eventually its going to be tired out, or given enough injuries when they face a fresh team everyday.

 

[Mathalamus]

Dude its Star Wars. 'Impractical' means nothing when you already have kilometer long star destroyers flying around. It was in fact very practical, and those sorts of ship only get destroyed for plot related reasons like the hero protagonist on a last ditch mission to destroy it.

Also, larger ships such as a super star destroyer or a Zeppelin Dreadnought most certainly are useful. In terms of pure firepower the amount of destroyers that might destroy them means they aren't worth it, true. But you are ignoring the psychological impact on those who fight them. Thats like a high school football team facing a professional football team. If the NFL team plays a team every day, eventually its going to be tired out, or given enough injuries when they face a fresh team everyday.

relatively speaking, the standard ISD's are as practical as star trek's excelsior. solid design, built in huge numbers, looks long lasting, so on. there was no need to build a ship four times that size, its...awkward.

building ships for the Psychological impact is, in modern military terms, insanely idiotic. especially of the enemy troops have any sense of discipline. mine may not, but others can.

yeah, that one vessel is probably nearly impossible to take down, even with sustained fighting, but if it gets destroyed, its gonna be difficult, maybe impossible to replace it.

 

[Nukeknockout]

so, basically its a possibly airborne ship that sounds incredibly impractical. you can build a number of destroyers with the resources of one dreadnought.

its the same way the Executor in star wars was impractical. it wasn't necessary, when more star destroyers can be built, and do their job quite well.

Basically, yes, its an airborne ship. And yes, it is arguably less effective than a fleet of Destroyers. It's much slower, its effective maximum altitude is much lower, it actually carries fewer strike craft and no missiles despite being ten or fifteen times the mass of a Destroyer. In a full-scale fleet engagement (Zeppelins vs seaborne ships or zeppelins vs zeppelins) it's very likely the Dreadnought would survive but wouldn't accomplish much.

The only reason it inflicted such catastrophic damage is because Monsterguard's forces had to stay at lower altitudes in order to protect their airstrip because if that was destroyed it didn't matter if they kept the town. That, and they were told they'd be executed if they retreated.

It took the Destroyers breaking through and killing two out of Monsterguard's five total Carriers to get their commander to decide to eat the Dictator's wrath and save his troops.

Dude its Star Wars. 'Impractical' means nothing when you already have kilometer long star destroyers flying around. It was in fact very practical, and those sorts of ship only get destroyed for plot related reasons like the hero protagonist on a last ditch mission to destroy it.

Also, larger ships such as a super star destroyer or a Zeppelin Dreadnought most certainly are useful. In terms of pure firepower the amount of destroyers that might destroy them means they aren't worth it, true. But you are ignoring the psychological impact on those who fight them. Thats like a high school football team facing a professional football team. If the NFL team plays a team every day, eventually its going to be tired out, or given enough injuries when they face a fresh team everyday.

Actually, Arya, the Eclipse/Executor and the Dreadnought have different design philosophies. Eclipse/Executor are designed to inspire fear of the Empire and defeat their enemies psychologically. The Dreadnought was built for low-level assaults against fortified positions - it just so happens that 320mm(32 cm, or ~13 inches) bombardment cannons are remarkably effective against airships.

The comparison between ISDs and SSDs is off, though - $14 trillion of Destroyers is superior to the dreadnought in task force speed, cruising altitude, versatility, ease of supply, and strikecraft capacity.

I submit that the Dreadnought cannot be adequately compared to a Destroyer - the two vessels exist for different purposes. Dreadnought exists for direct assaults against targets which aren't moving so speed is irrelevant whereas the Destroyer exists to fight effectively everywhere there might be battle.

relatively speaking, the standard ISD's are as practical as star trek's excelsior. solid design, built in huge numbers, looks long lasting, so on. there was no need to build a ship four times that size, its...awkward.

building ships for the Psychological impact is, in modern military terms, insanely idiotic. especially of the enemy troops have any sense of discipline. mine may not, but others can.

yeah, that one vessel is probably nearly impossible to take down, even with sustained fighting, but if it gets destroyed, its gonna be difficult, maybe impossible to replace it.

Bingo. If the Zeppelin Dreadnought is destroyed, there's no way Apocalypta can replace it - the one they deployed is actually a prototype Megaspider silk-titanium armor testbed which they have been attaching turrets to for the past six months or so. They don't even have the schematics with them - the thing is Haven's brainchild, but Apocalypta had the expertise with megaspider silk to make it.

As is, though, there's no practical way it can be taken down by a task force of Destroyers and Carriers. Its simply impervious to their weapons and the weapons of their carried craft - sure, concerted bombardment could take out all of its engines and most of its weapons, and to be perfectly frank it doesn't have enough ammunition to fight for longer than an estimated 315 minutes without a resupply chain as long as the trail of tears, but it has proven an ability to inflict immense casualties in short engagements.

Ultimately, though, its going to be destroyed. Apocalypta simply doesn't have the instinct for violence Monsterguard does - it is inevitable.

 

[Krzowwh]

Azärbayjan, in light of the defeat of Romany, is concerned for the free passage of our merchants through the Bosporus and Dardanelles. We expect that, despite some xenophobic drivel that certain extremists have voiced, the parties involved should not wish to make an enemy out of our thus-far amicable nation, neither should they make of the akin Arstotzka, whose maritime trade also depends on those waters.

 

[Mathalamus]

well, Bosnia might block the Dardanelles and the Bosporus to all military vessels, thus blocking you out of everything except the black sea. and you wouldn't be able to bypass it without Bosnia declaring war.

that's what started the conflict.

 

[arya126]

The only reason it inflicted such catastrophic damage is because Monsterguard's forces had to stay at lower altitudes in order to protect their airstrip because if that was destroyed it didn't matter if they kept the town. That, and they were told they'd be executed if they retreated.

Ultimately, though, its going to be destroyed. Apocalypta simply doesn't have the instinct for violence Monsterguard does - it is inevitable.

Thats faulty air tactics then. They were essentially interposing themselves between the behemoth and their airstrip in order to soak up damage? I realize zeppelins might have different tactics than conventional aircraft, but I would imagine the idea of attacking from above would remain constant. After all, it applies to most any aerial combat whether between planes or birds. Failing being able to attack from above, it would have been logical to at least engage the enemy farther away from the airfield so that instead of defending a still target, they would be able to maneuver freely on the field of battle.

Monterguard's instinct for violence obviously failed to construct a victory on this field of battle. Plus, they have taken enormous losses, that will no doubt hurt further offensives in the war. Is their military mindset so inset that it is like a Prussian culture? And even so, even a military culture like that can be defeated if outnumbered, outgunned, out etched, or out maneuvered sufficiently.

I apologize if I come off as argumentative, I merely feel this thread needs some activity and I am curious if you have points to refute the above.

 

[Krzowwh]

well, Bosnia might block the Dardanelles and the Bosporus to all military vessels, thus blocking you out of everything except the black sea. and you wouldn't be able to bypass it without Bosnia declaring war.

that's what started the conflict.

Azärbayjan fails to see why the leadership of Cyprus has any concern in the matter, nor in dictating the policies of Bosnia.

 

[arya126]

Azärbayjan fails to see why the leadership of Cyprus has any concern in the matter, nor in dictating the policies of Bosnia.

New America sympathizes with the fact that Cyprus has no business in it, however to be fair their analysis of what happened and what is likely to happen is potentially accurate. New America has no business in the region at the moment, and is merely pointing out that which may be useful.

 

[Nukeknockout]

Thats faulty air tactics then. They were essentially interposing themselves between the behemoth and their airstrip in order to soak up damage? I realize zeppelins might have different tactics than conventional aircraft, but I would imagine the idea of attacking from above would remain constant. After all, it applies to most any aerial combat whether between planes or birds. Failing being able to attack from above, it would have been logical to at least engage the enemy farther away from the airfield so that instead of defending a still target, they would be able to maneuver freely on the field of battle.

Monterguard's instinct for violence obviously failed to construct a victory on this field of battle. Plus, they have taken enormous losses, that will no doubt hurt further offensives in the war. Is their military mindset so inset that it is like a Prussian culture? And even so, even a military culture like that can be defeated if outnumbered, outgunned, out etched, or out maneuvered sufficiently.

I apologize if I come off as argumentative, I merely feel this thread needs some activity and I am curious if you have points to refute the above.

In the beginning, zeppelins fought zeppelins because zeppelins were the earliest safe transport over the jungle and militarizing them was a logical step as a projection of power. Those early battles depended largely on maneuver - most early zeppelins were armed with forward facing rocket pods. Soon, bright so-and-sos across the eventual Triple Alliance realized if you got some altitude and pointed the nose of the zeppelin down towards the target, you could aim better and the rockets would have more energy to inflict damage with.

Thus was the beginning of the first arms race - one based around plots and ideas and plans to float higher, turn quicker, tolerate greater angles of elevation and declination, and do all of this while being smaller. Then a smarty-pants rediscovered helicopters and thought "These look cool" so then zeppelin warfare became horizontal instead of vertical - for the most part, helicopters were just better at killing zeppelins than zeppelins, so most fleets began to rely on them for that. Small, high altitude zeppelins continued to exist but the focus changed to larger ones carrying a bunch of helicopters.

Even with the helicopters, battles were still short range affairs - well within thirty kilometers. It took the advent of VTOL jets to make people realize "Hey. We can kill zeppelins from hundreds of kilometers away using these aircraft". So they began doing that - engagements between zeppelin flotillas turned into a series of dogfights to determine who would get to launch missiles at the other side's zeppelins.

Missiles themselves are the reason current zeppelins are the way they are - bristling with countermeasures, AAMs, and ballistic point defense weapons. Because there's just no way to attach enough armor plating to a zeppelin to resist a high-velocity artillery shell or a missile.

The specific battle against the Dreadnought is an interesting study - Apocalypta ignored most of the existing rules and got away with it. Monsterguard stuck by the book for the first third of the battle, then threw it away and took insane casualties for it.

The engagement opened with the Dreadnought cruising toward Durmot at around 2,000 meters - low for fighter jets and low for these zeppelins. So Monsterguard reacted by the book for an encounter with a lone zeppelin free of fighter escort - send out two squadrons of planes with Bolt II(A) missiles.

They weren't quite sure what to do with 65% casualties in that aircraft wave, or pilot reports that the brand new, super specialized almost mythical zeppelin-killing missile had proven completely ineffective against a zeppelin. One thing they were sure of, though, is that the massive airborne explosions reported were due to some kind of stealth burst missile being fired from surface platforms pacing the Dreadnought and not the result of 320mm artillery being used in an anti-aircraft role.

But even then, they went textbook - send in many more planes and bring the Destroyers in at 6,000 meters to bombard the enemy from above. So they did just that - forty or so destroyers, just firing 57, 76, and 105mm shells down at a huge slow target.

The target presented its broadside, and angled so that the bombardiers could see all of its broadside with the effect of increasing the size of what they were shooting at. Not something ever done if you're smart.

Then the target fired two 320mm high explosive shells at its tormentors - these shells crushed through the aluminum plating before detonating with devastating results.

After that, Monsterguard became concerned. So they added surface-launched cruise missiles to their potent cocktail of ATA missiles, bombs, small arms, and high velocity tank killers.

When all of that failed and the Dreadnought was beginning to exchange fire with the AA guns Monsterguard had placed upon the rooftops of Durmot, Monsterguard's Destroyers decided they had to drive the Dreadnought back, so they chose to "do or die". But mostly die, and while they were trying to protect the airfield, six high altitude Destroyers killed Monsterguard's two carriers in this region.

It was really only after watching two dozen destroyers be exploded one after another for trying to fight the Dreadnought in the only way left to them (Close range and low altitude) that the commander chose to pull back despite knowing somebody would have to apologize to the leader.

Which is when the garrison commander chose to detonate his station.

As a culture, Monsterguard has always lived and died by its military. This setback won't deter them, just delay them.

The "instinct for violence" statement is meant to convey that war was never Apocalypta's art - and while Monsterguard may have forgotten for now, war is what they are.

I have already mentioned three things Monsterguard has which they intend to combine in an effort to kill the Dreadnought - not because its really a threat to their fleets, but because its a threat to their city.

OOC: Strategic Airlifters, High Explosives, and the commander of the losing side of Durmot.

 

[Mathalamus]

Azärbayjan fails to see why the leadership of Cyprus has any concern in the matter, nor in dictating the policies of Bosnia.

New America sympathizes with the fact that Cyprus has no business in it, however to be fair their analysis of what happened and what is likely to happen is potentially accurate. New America has no business in the region at the moment, and is merely pointing out that which may be useful.

you are right. Cyprus has no business in the Dardanelles. we are just pointing out Bosnia's possible action that may harm two nations, if they have any allies outside the Mediterranean. or the black sea, for that matter.

 

[Robert Can't]

Both Arstoka and Azerbaijan are allowed free passage through all straits controlled by Bosnia except the Strait of Otranto as that area is still under UN protection.

 

[Terran Empress]

Arstotzka thanks Bosnia for allowing our nation to go through your straits.

 

[Arrow Gamer]

I am leaving tomorrow, not to return until late Thursday. If the next deadline is before then, NPC me.

 

[Robert Can't]

I am leaving tomorrow, not to return until late Thursday. If the next deadline is before then, NPC me.

Seconding this, though i return on Friday.

 

[arya126]

Deadline wednesday then

 

[Tani Coyote]

Alright, mates. I'm back from California.

Orders perma-locked this time so I can begin work.

It's my final week of Summer school so this update will probably be slow as I have to work on an essay on democracy (God help me). But at least you know I'm alive.