Mump1 - AWDG Standard Pangaea

[nerovats]

Wow, that went fast. Me up now.
Don't like the black dot. Would prefer to settle W of iron hill (NE of gems). Leave city empty and units on the hill. If we settle on top we must connect iron, and can't leave city open. Now we can get some more warriors stop science at some point and start upgrading after connecting iron. In general don't settle on top of forrest as they make shields. Also like the dot 2 S of Rome on tundra, it's close but doesn't waist the grass. The cow might be a bit far, giving a city with food, but no shields. Would prefer 2 cities near the sugars in east.
Can't say yet wether we should pre-emptively strike blue or just stick with arabs. Good thing arabs are 1 of teh closer once as they usually don't pose a real threath in my games.

@Own, refreshing the window usually helps pasting.

 

[Own]

Yes, I did forget save, .

Thanks nerovats, I'll try that next time.

 

[Mizar]

I really think we should settle directly on the iron hill.
It will be hard to defend both the hill and the town and I don't think we have enough gold to upgrade a lot of warriors.

 

[nerovats]

But if we settle on top of hill and put unitsin the city it won't be much of a tempting target. If we leave city open it should draw all enemy forces, letting us focus our defence as well. Will see what others say. I'll play tomorrow after work.

 

[Mumpulus]

I don't like Black dot either, it gets very crowded, and when we get to monarchy, Rome will want to work that hill eventually. If it turns out we can do without it, all the better.

But for the iron city I think we have no choice but to put it on top of it. Here are the reasons for doing so:

• It will take 6 worker turns instead of 3 to hook up the iron.
• Town center gets two shields from the start because of the iron. In this game I prefer one extra shield short term over a couple extra long term.
• Building a town with walls there takes four turns at size 1. To get the same defensive bonus without town, we have to build a fortress, which takes 8 worker turns.
• We definitely do not want to loose the iron town, wherever we found it. If we found off the hill and get in bad shape in the area, we'll be compelled to abandon the hill position in favor of the town all too often. Our iron will then get pillaged for sure, requiring a lot of work to get it hooked up again.
• Although your plan to create a kill zone is sound, nerovats, I'd rather we invest as little as possible to do so. Founding on the hill will also create a kill zone, if only because of the iron, but it will require less resources. As long as we don't have cats and a sizable attack force, we'll have to allow direct attacks on our town. Spears on a hill behind walls with a few archer bombards will do nicely for that.

Now, we can try to do without Black dot, but I'd rather be safe than sorry. Furthermore, Black dot will be a good town until we disband it. The dotmap I created allows for abandoning the Black and Light blue dots as soon as we're established, but we'll get a lot from them until then. We shouldn't invest too much in infrastructure, just build cats in those towns (we'll needs huge amounts of them very soon) and the occasional worker/settler.

In general, I'd like to settle on hills as much as possible, and I'd even forgo CxxC for that. And then CxCxC looks better than CxxxC to me, at least until we get about 15 towns up.

I'd really like us to reach a genuine consensus on this, rather than to have to put it to a vote. If any lurkers care to chime in, that's fine too. We'll have to be in full agreement and execute our plans very well to win this.

Another issue is our food town. The cow spot is still within short reach of our capital, so I guess we'll have acceptable corruption. I'd dedicate to it all the tiles it needs to perform its task, even if that means short-changing Veii. We have to fill our lands very quickly to stand a chance on the longer term. Unit support will kill us otherwise.

Then on upgrades: I don't believe we can afford any. We must not turn off research until we're absolutely certain of the GL, and that will be a long time. We need masonry and math before thinking about the GL. We'll probably want wheel and HBR while waiting for the GL to come in. And there's a high chance we'll miss the GL on this level and with these lands.

To summarize, here's how I see it:

• Building on top of the iron is necessary to hold our ground, will result in a better kill ratio, and will give us a better town short and mid term, which is most important now.
• Black dot may or may not be necessary, but I'd feel better with it. We'll loose absolutely nothing by settler-abandoning it when we're well established, and will get a lot from it until then (short and mid term thinking again).
• Iron Town and Black dot are for survival, Food Town is for thriving, and should be next. It should be well taken care of.
• We need to squeeze everything out of as little units as possible. Blue, Black and Pink dot will help with the kill ratio on defense. Black dot and Light Blue dot can build cats non-stop to get to active defense. Light Green dot takes care of pop-units, so that all other towns can grow and produce troops.

I hope I'm not coming on too strong here, but I agree with Own that we have a reasonable chance, and I'd like to give it our best shot.

I estimate we have about 16 hours until nerovats starts playing, so let's try to come to the right conclusions before then.

 

[Mizar]

You already came up with most of the reasons why we should settle on the iron hill that I would have given. In AW, settling on the ressource is the way to go if the town is (at least temporarly) on the front line.
Early on, we must be able to concentrate our limited forces, not spread them on several tiles.
I wished we could settle near the iron and work the hill but I think in this case the strategic/military value is by far more important than this small economic advantage.

 

[Own]

I'm beginning to have second thoughts about black dot. The idea of using it to kill the arabs is something, but settling on the iron would have the same effect, and wouldn't put a lux in danger. There's plenty of other room, and it's our lack of settlers, not a lack of settlable areas, that limits our city count, so there's no need to cram a city in every nook and cranny.

We shouldn't invest too much in infrastructure, just build cats in those towns (we'll needs huge amounts of them very soon) and the occasional worker/settler.

Completely agree here.

 

[Mumpulus]

@nerovats: I hope we've been able to convince you on settling the iron directly, and on the research issue.

Like I said before, and it's been mentioned by Own too, Black dot may be overkill. Settlers will indeed be a rare commodity. In any case, it should be very doable to settle iron first, and found black dot if it turns out to be really required. We'll have to keep a small force on the gems anyway, we can use that instead of a town for troop shuffling.

Keep in mind that the initial Arab rush will arrive any turn now. Remember my note on the land shape: their main force may come in from directly north of Rome. With any luck, they'll arrive in the next two turns, and then we'll now for sure. In any case, protect our settler well. We always have a backup spear in Veii to defend Rome.

Goals I'd set for the next turnset:

• Found Iron Town
• Defend from the initial Arab rush; try to keep tile improvements free from harm
• Beef up our military a bit, start legions asap
• Worker tasks: improve what we'll be able to use in the near future, but not too much beyond; build roads toward next settling sites instead
• Research: masonry and mathematics. Keep research as fast as possible.
• Keep growth up so we can build more settlers towards the end of your round, or early next round (I wouldn't halt growth for research anymore, that was a one time thing for IW).
• Stay away from the Maya as long as we don't have a good amount of legions

Have fun nerovats, and good luck.

 

[nerovats]

Pre turn
Move archer warrior pair into forrest
IBT
arab loses to warrior on hill, it promotes
1675BC
Rome settler->archer
have to lower science now masonry in 6
IBT
5 warriors com from north, including 2 conscripts
1650BC
Veii rax->archer
IBT
warriors move into forrest 2NW of Rome
1625BC
start to chop forrest settler to hill
send 1 archer from Rome to Veii, to make sure Arabs will go for Rome
IBT
arabs split up, 2 more come from north (thats 1 W of the sugar)
1600BC
Kill 3 warriors, gain an elite, move spear out of Veii to leave it empty
Settle Irony->rax, will be helped by chop
IBT
lose vet spear in Rome against reg warrior even after defensive shot of archer
1575BC
Masonry in science to Math currently in 31
Mayans completed the Pyramids
kill 1 warrior 3 left (need to heal)
IBT
just moving
1550AD
Lose the elite archer against reg warrior
IBT
and again a reg warrior takes out a spear in Rome
An archer succesfully defends against another
1 wounded warrior retreats, a new one shows up
1525BC
Kill a warrior
change both archer builds to spear
chop complete start road
IBT
Calakmul is settled by blue, no contact yet
1500BC
finish 2 spears set both cities to archer but will change to legionairs after road completes
Irony rax->legionaire (it's no target yet and we need units now.
IBT
Arbs seem to hold off, 1 warrior fortifies in forrest. Won't attack it with my luck today
1475BC
Need to lower science again
IBT
arabs moves another warrior on the forrest
1450BC
Move worker to irrigate towards Irony. We need to grow cities
Can increase science for 1 turn, but Rome will grow so maybe we can keep 70%

Bit of bad luck streek, but so far so good. We got iron. Use workers to shop forrest next. Be sure to time the completion. Arabs ar comming across pink arrow.



View attachment Mumps1_1450BC.SAV

 

[Own]

Things are looking up. I think after one round of legionary's, we should expand a little more, adding a town by the cow, a town by the sugar, and maybe a town or two south of rome by the river or grassland. We also can't forget to build more workers.

 

[Mumpulus]

Some bad luck indeed. One would expect better with spears and archers versus warriors, but that's just the way it goes sometimes. Once we have a legion in each town and build walls, bad luck will become less of a factor.

Our "military" consists of 2 workers, 2 warriors, 2 spears and 2 archers now. Our towns are small. So I concur with Own: growing while rebuilding military will play out nicely. After that, some settlers/workers again. We now have confirmation on the Maya, let's hope we get a little more time before we meet. The bad lands between us will play to our advantage, unless they're already hemmed in.

Rome seems to be the target for now. Let's keep it that way. We could finish walls with growth next turn, but that might compel the AI to go somewhere else. I like them attacking our center for now. It would be nice if we could time all our walls to finish at about the same time. We'll need them soonish though.

The Arabs seem to be behind the Maya. That'll make our choice to go on the offensive a little harder. But I'd still do it. Slowing the Maya is important as well. But of course, let's get a few more towns down first, while building military.

Roster
Mumpulus - On deck
Own
nerovats - Just played
Mizar - Up

Goals for next set:

• Rebuild military; I suggest trying to keep defenses in all towns about equal, so we have a better guarantee they'll keep coming for Rome
• Build walls; similar suggestion for timing
• Grow towns to get research up
• If you get that far, starts settler(s); workers should prepare road network in that case

Anything I overlooked, please let us know. Let's keep up the good discussions and coordination of our efforts.

Good luck Mizar!

And a final note to the lurkers: we've yet to complete the first rotation, so now is the time to join. Although four players is fine, I'd be more comfortable with a fifth. I think it's clear now this start is viable (and a nice challenge )

 

[Mumpulus]

One more thing I'd like you to do, Mizar, is to note when Calakmul grows. It was founded 3 turns ago, if it goes to size 2 within 4 turns, we know there is grassland (or sugar at least) to the other side of that ridge. Intel worth having.

If we can get an attacking party together soon enough we may be able to attack the Maya before they get too much culture, and keep their towns. They have the Pyramids now, so we'll have to act fast. We are lucky with our early pikes (italian style), so we can go light on defense. If we can go for that, I'd try to get two attack parties of 4 legions each to take and keep the two towns visible. Let our forces converge after that and continue.

Edit: kill count so far 8-3

 

[Mizar]

Got the save.

The pyramids would be really good.
I will try to consolidate and beef us up.
The AI is ressource greedy, so they should go for the iron and we may establish a kill zone there. The good thing about the "italian style" of the sword is that 2 of them on hills behind a wall are a though nut and can also kil of attackers that just reached the town, a two-in-one unit.

And of course, we should keep up the good and intense discussion/communication (detailed reports) to focus on a common strategy.
This will be the most important factor to stand a chance.

 

[nerovats]

I think an attack force of 4 legionaires is a bit light. It stand good chance af losing especially as at least 1 of the cities is on a hill. Also acompany some cats/archers for defensive shot. Main think in high levels games is making sure you win the first war. If we lose our first army and need to rebuild the game is virtually lost as then the ai will run away. We already got some poor luck, so i'd suggest to play a bit save for now.
After think round of legionaires I think we should optimize for growth, altough for now we can't improve that yet.

 

[Mumpulus]

You're right nerovats, although 4 legions could be enough, we have to be almost a 100% sure when we attack a town, so 6 or even 8 is probably better.

But time is against us, so does everyone agree that we have to at least try to get going offensively as soon as possible? Then maybe we throw away my split up approach, and make one stack of 8 legions. By the time we build up that force (+ 4 at least for homeland defense), we'll have reached cats for sure and can finish preparations by building a couple to go along. Then send out the stack immediately, while starting to rebuild the homeland army.

We could get a lucky break with an early leader (a good reason to also squeeze out a settler in our worst shield town), but we can't count on that.

 

[Mizar]

Checking situation: We are a bit light on defense, hopefully no other civ will find us in the next few turns.

IT: The 2 arab warrior move next to Rome

(1) Kill of one of the warriors with the archer

IT: 2 new arab warriors approache from the fog, run towards Rome from different directions.

(2) -

(3) Kill of the stupid conscript that just waited next to Rome until my archer was back at full strenght.

IT: The Japanese finished the Oracle and our friends the arabs start Temple of Artemis

(4,5) Just the two arab warriors stepping forward

(6) Rome and Vei finish their first legions, now we should be save for a few more turns
I decide we need a granary in Vei, we are just too food-poor to expand otherwise.

IT: The good news are: the Arabs started Statue of Zeus, now 3 of their towns are building wonders
instead of military.
One warrior impales himself on the gems-mountain.

(7) Takeout the last warrior with an archer.
Note: I try to avoid the GA until it is no longer possible to get the most of a despotic GA.

(8) irrigation towards Irony

(9,10) ...and done.

Nothing spectacular, 3 legions built, granary on the way, worker now for a chop.
We should stay as meek as mice and slowly build up our first raid party.
On the downside: The Mayan city (we still haven't met them) stayed at size 1, probably just as
poor as our lands.


http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/113243/Mump1_1200BC.SAV

 

[Own]

Checked the save, and things are looking great.

Mumpulus is up, and here is my idea of what should happen next (up for discussion, of course):
-After Granary, Veii should build a settler, as should Rome after it's legion (we must take advantage of the fact that we have only one opponant and that opponant seems to be very passive. It won't be long before we're over our heads trying to defend our towns..
-After walls, irony should build a legionary.
-Settlers should go to the spot near the cow and NW of the forest by the sugars.
-Next settlers should settle in optimal places south of Rome.

 

[Mumpulus]

I see it and will get to it sometime tomorrow. I'll take a quick look at the save and comment a couple of hours before playing.

 

[Mumpulus]

I looked at the save last night, but don't have it available now mischief, so some of this is from memory... In bold are my questions or suggestions for which I'd like confirmation from the team.

After Granary, Veii should build a settler, as should Rome after it's legion

I agree. I would maybe even have gone for the Veii settler without granary, but I agree with Mizar that we'll need more than the normal number of granaries with the world we got. We have the chop that Mizar set up, and I'd follow that up with more chops N and NE of Veii to speed up early builds and to get rid of the defensive terrain for AI attack parties.

After walls, irony should build a legionary.

Can't remember the situation there, but sounds right. Food is scarce there anyway until we get the sugar town up.

Settlers should go to the spot near the cow and NW of the forest by the sugars.

Obviously agree with the cow spot. The sugar spot is different from what we had in the dotmap, but may be a better choice. I'd still keep red dot on the tundra, so the spacing is CxxxC between those, but there still is mutual support with Irony, and that should do. Furthermore, we have more infomation now than we had at the time of the dotmaps: I think it's pretty sure now that the coast turns north just beyond what we can see.

Next settlers should settle in optimal places south of Rome.

Agree again, for now. Let's revisit this when the time comes. I'll play 8 to even out the turns, so I will not even get near to a third settler. It may be important to time the foundings exactly, because the spot two S of Rome will increase the rank of other towns, no? Maybe other towns will be founded earlier to postpone this problem.

We have 10g IIRC, and I would turn up research one notch to get mathematics in 8 at -1gpt, instead of 10 or 11 turns.

The reg archer has moved to Irony, but I see nothing in Mizar's turnlog that indicates a change in the Arab attack pattern. Mizar, if you could confirm that, I'd move the archer back to Rome to use it instead of legions to attack out, to delay our GA. If we could get two more towns up before, that would be huge.

I'd even move legions out of towns and let spears be attacked if by warriors. With archers attacking I'll obviously take no chances. With the Arabs on a wonder building spree, chances are we'll have few visitors anyway.

It may be interesting to build one more archer to avoid our GA, but personally I would not do that.

I'll start playing in about 7 hours, and hope to finish my 8 turns in the 90 minutes I have in between RL activities. If not, I'll finish tonight. In any case I should have everything posted 14 hours from now at the latest.

 

[Mizar]

The 2nd archer was sent to Irony because there was only one warrior and I really felt uncomfortable.
There are currently no AI-units visible so you will have enough time to shift him back.
Avoiding the GA will be more and more tricky (I don't think that we should build more archers, our production capacity is just too limited) but as long as they only send a few warriors it can be done.