Mump1 - AWDG Standard Pangaea

[Own]

will increase the rank of other towns, no?

I think you're right here. But it's really a small difference and we shouldn't worry about it, or settle farther south so our best terrain gets rank 1. I'd be willing to sacrifice a good grassland for that.

Other than that, I completely agree with what you said in the big post.

 

[Mumpulus]

0) 1200BC

Arabia is a Monarchy now. Looking at the culture graph, they switched just a few turns ago. They're up to 8 cities.

Research up one notch to 80%, mathematics in 8 turns instead of 10 for a 3gpt difference (-1gpt now). Move archer from Irony towards Rome.

IT
A reg Persian warrior moves south onto the hill N-NE of Irony.
Rome grows to size 3, Irony to size 2.

1) 1175BC
The Persians are up all visible techs. They have 12 cities, 11g and iron . Declare.

Math has dropped to 5 turns at break-even, could get it in 4 at max, but not sustainable right now. Veii will grow next turn though, so I increase science to 100% anyway.

Move Rome's vet archer towards Irony to handle the warrior if it dares to approach (probably not), reg archer to gems mountain.

Worker starts chop. Irony worker will finish irrigating so move Irony citizen to that tile, walls still in 1.

IT
Irony: Walls -> Legionary
The Persian warrior fortifies as anticipated

2) 1150BC
Science back to 90% and math still in 3 at -1gpt

Irony worker moves to SW sugar to start improving (Sugar Town will be founded in 9 turns), maybe the Persian warrior will want a piece of him...

IT
Rome: Legionary -> Walls

3) 1125BC
Move the new legionary out of Rome to keep our defenses balanced, not that it matters much because nothing is happening. Rome will grow in 8, and I want to build the settler only when that happens, hence the walls build in between.

BTW, checked F7 and Persia is also building three wonders.

IT
Mayan city of Tikal builds Mausoleum

A second (conscript) Persian warrior approaches from directly N of Irony. Looks like some action soon.

Oh, and this shows up:

4) 1100BC
Move spear from Rome towards Irony, I want options. Gems mountain warrior replaces him as MP. Our two archers stay put, but they are ready to rock.

Science down to 80%, math still in 1 at +1gpt.

IT
Persians move towards Irony, no backup appears.

Mathematics -> Writing (tentatively)
Rome: Walls -> Settler
Veii chop finishes, no BG

5) 1075BC
Our vet archer attacks the reg warrior, dies taking of 1hp. Our reg archer kills him clean. Will take a tiny risk and let the spear defend against the conscript (who'll probably fortify anyway).

Veii worker starts road.

Now, what about research? We can do CB in 4 at 80%, writing in 15. It's 1075BC, we're at turn 77. Will we be able to get the GL if we have to build it ourselves? We'll have to discuss that, but I don't think so. In any case, I think getting the 600 shields will be the problem, not getting to literature in time. So I go for CB in 4, it'll only finish next turnset, so we can discuss how to proceed.

IT
Mayans build another town just north
Persian warrior fortifies

Copán builds Temple of Artemis
Amsterdam builds Great Wall
Persepolis builds Hanging Gardens

Calakmul borders expand

The lay of the lands now:

6) 1050BC
Irony worker starts mining the sugar, archer back into Irony to attack next turn

IT
Persian reg archer approaches from the north. So much for killing the warrior. I now realize I should have taken on the north warrior first, leaving the other one isolated. Oh well...

Veii: Granary -> Settler

Mecca builds SoZ

7) 1025BC
Move legionary back into Irony, fortify everyone.

Sci slider to 70%, CB still in 2 at +3gpt.

IT
Persian archer approaches, and then a Japanese settler pair moves south out of the fog...

8) 1000BC
The Persian unfortified reg archer will defend, so I take another chance to avoid our GA. Our reg archer redlines, but finally wins and promotes.

Contact the Japanese. They are up all visible techs except currency, have 10 cities, no gold and no iron.

Science to 30%, CB still in 1.

Veii worker to BG, road will time nicely with the settler. Chop would have come in too late.

I do some final checks, and find that Japan is in anarchy right now, and they have captured and lost workers to the Ottomans. Abu also lacks currency still, X-man won't talk yet. Everyone we know is building the GL (that's the tall building that guides ships).

I have to run now, will comment some more 4 hours from now. We should definitely discuss a bit before Own starts his turns.

 

[nerovats]

3 archers should do it for now. Then legions and build settlers when cities get over hapiness limit, we get 2 lux so that should be when growing to size 5. Odd we haven't met Maya yet. If we do we need more units as Maya are best expanding civ. Looks like we got our back coverd by see, that helps a lot, but try to keep our core thight, I stil think the cow is a bit out of our reach for now. We need to be able to quickly reorder defensive units if AI go for another city.

 

[Own]

I think avoiding our GA is no longer an issue, it's going to be despotic, and will do very little for us, so we should just accept it and concentrate on defense.

If we can expand south and a little west (which includes declaring on the Mongols and taking their village) we'll have a very managable front with some decent land, from which we can hopefully get a few leaders and advance.

Immortals will be arriving soon, so lets stock up on cats ASAP (which, sadly, as soon as possible is after the settlers, some workers, and some more legions).

When I settle, is it unanimous to settle NW of the forest by the sugar and the dot Mump drew earlier by the cow? IMO after that we should settle on what was formerly SW periwinkle, the grassland SW of rome on the river, to preserved Veii's rank 1.

 

[Mizar]

That's sure a lot of new friends in just 8 turns
The next stage of the game will be very tough.

 

[Mumpulus]

On archers vs GA: it was always clear we'd still be despots by the time our GA arrived, it was just a matter of getting the most out of it, by having more towns. Building an extra archer would have been acceptable, but we didn't need it in the end. Three archers as nerovats suggests is too much IMO. Settlers are close now, and no potential attacker in sight for now, so we will probably get a 5 town GA, which is fine. No more archers I'd say.

On build order: you could switch Irony to a cat right now. Not at all sure which is best, but I also had a slight preference for another legion (building now). I know I asked all of you to remind to build enough workers, but at this point, no town is working unimproved tiles, and Rome and Veii will even drop in pop soon. So I'd do a new worker after two or so cats. Maybe have Cow Town start with a cat, and then a worker (with any luck, the worker will build in 5 turns instead of 10 at size 2). It can use a free Veii tile until improvement of its own tiles begins. Sugar Town definitely a cat first IMO.

On settling patters: I obviously agree with my cow spot, and also with Own's ammended sugar spot. I don't think the cow spot is too far at all. By the time it could become an issue (having attacks from that side), we'll be a bit stronger overall and will be able to cope. Not at all sure on the save-the-grassland vs keep-rank-corruption-in-check issue. I'd like to test it before we decide. We probably have until next turnset anyway.

On research: I don't think we have the shields to get the GL. I'd beeline to Monarchy. We need it to get Cow Town to +5 food.

Our kill count so far : 14-4

 

[Own]

Do we all concur on the plan? If so, I'll play tomorrow.

 

[Mumpulus]

• Kaminalyuyú will expand in two or three turns because of ToA. If we want to avoid contact, remove troops from Gems mountain. It may make a difference of a few turns, which could be important.
• Holwerd is Dutch, not Mongol. It has walls because of the GW. It's on flat land. I'd still bring some cats to take it on. We won't get contact from it soon; the AI will want 2 units to remain in town. With any luck, they'll build us a slave after that. It'll be over size 2 by the time we take it, I'd keep it until we can replace it with a town that fits our dotmap.
• I expect the Japanese to continue SW, then along our border, to deliver us two slaves. When you found Bovinus (cow town ), I expect them to turn around, so be sure to get them. ETA of GA: about 3 turns . Maybe step onto the wines before to check if there's anything on the hill 3 NW of Veii. Maybe the Mayans are racing the Japanese to a spot. The incense is already taken.

 

[Own]

Sounds good.

I got it, and will play after school today.

 

[Own]

Just got home now, and have massive homework. Will do it tomorrow.

 

[Mizar]

No hurry here.
We need good turnsets, not quick ones

 

[Own]

Preturn (1000BC)- Move legion off of gems to avoid war with Maya. MM is perfect.
1. (975BC)- In the IBT, a mayan settler/ spear couple passed over our borders, I declare
war. CB is researched. Switched to Mysticism, SCI to 80% and it will come in 6. Move
legionary down to Veii for potential killings of settler pairs.
2. (950BC)- Not much.
3. (925BC)- Rome settler > legionary. First immortal appears . Seems as though
our GA isn't avoidable for long.
4. ((900BC)- Irony legion > legion. Worker finishes road on BG, but cowers in the city with the
presence of enemies. Jap settler pair on our roads force me to use the GA,
my reasoning being the following: We've almost got two new towns, the pair is on grassland,
so the legion has a high chance of killing it, it might pillage, or it might settle in the back country.
Legion is successful, and we pick up a pair of slaves.
5. (875BC)- Veii settler > legionary. Found Cumae, starts on cat, due in seven. Meet the Dutch,
declare war.
6. (850BC)- Mysticism > poly, due in 13 at -2 with 16 in kitty. Found Neapolis, starts on cat. Workers
cower in Neapolis.
7. (825BC)- Sigh. Meet Ottos, declare war. We now have six enemies, and are very short on legions.
Persia is threatening our iron road, so I will have to take a risk here and there. Legion kills immortal.
Archer loses to warrior, then another legion finishes him off.
8. (800BC)- Took a series of calculated risks, and it paid off. We haven't lost a legionary yet.
9. (775BC)- Damn it! We get three new legionaries, but the arabs dropped an archer off the coast, and there's no way anything
can get there to defend it. There are enemy units swarming everywhere, and we're stretched too thin to defend. We met too many
opponents. I really can't see us winning the game at this point, but we'll play it to the bitter end.
10. (750BC)- Cumae is burned to the ground . Arabian spear pillages our mined road.

Game isn't going to great. Good luck to nerovats.

 

[Mumpulus]

I had already shadow-played a couple of turns off my own 1000BC save before Own started. During the first IT I knew we would be in trouble.

Let's build military during our GA and see if we can hold on. If we can get the AI to attack Irony, that'll give us a better defense. It's unlikely that we'll be able to hold on much longer though.

 

[nerovats]

Looks like the AI came bit to soon. But let's at least keep fighting until our last legionaire. Most attackers have still attack of 2 so we might get lucky and get leader, but those immortals might cause a huge problem. IT would help to get them attack Irony but I don't see how. If we put walls in all cities we could lust let them attack and hope for leader, just try to play offensive against te immortals. I'm up but need to be skipped until wensday.

 

[Mumpulus]

Roster
Mumpulus - On deck
Own - Just played
nerovats - Requested skip
Mizar - Up

We have a small roster. I would have felt better with one more player. Chances are we're going to loose this one pretty soon. I'd like to start another try as soon as that happens. Are there additional players who would like to take a crack at this? I hope the current players will be up for a rematch?

But until then, let's try to hang on and see how long we can last.

 

[Own]

I'm up for a rematch, and wouldn't feel bad about waiting for a better start. The best start for an AW like this is in the corner, cow, river, BG's, and no tundra in sight.

 

[nerovats]

I'm up for another one as well after my exam on wensday. We could do without huts as well, as those help the ai a lot.

 

[Mizar]

I will try something and see how it plays out but it looks ugly.
I'm defenitely in for a new start if we lose this one.
AW is a lot about starting position, on these high levels many starts are not playable.
But we shall see

 

[ThERat]

just to add my comments:

when we played AWD on standard pangaea, we let everyone play a start and post and then we selected the most promising start. Else, too many replays are needed

 

[Mumpulus]

Hi ThERat, glad to see you're lurking too.

I agree that having each player play their own start and then choosing from that is a more efficient way to get a viable one soon. However, that goes a bit against my intentions with this game.

Here's my view: virtually any start can be beaten on AWE standard pangaea by the top players here. There have been many examples of this, even with extra restrictions (no pillaging, no armies, etc.).

For AWD(G), that's not true. It has been done with reasonable starts, and every trick in the book has always been allowed for those games I believe.

In my solo games, I've been playing AWE exclusively for the last few years, and recently I have been winning my games consistently, thanks only to all the know-how I picked up by reading SGs here. The next natural step for me personally is to try AWDG with a good start. But instead of doing that, I thought it would be a good idea to skip a step, bumping up the difficulty level by taking any start, and then knock it down a bit again by playing it as an SG.

So my premise is: the top notch players here can beat any AWDG standard pangaea start if they put their minds to it. From the discussions in this thread so far, I take it not many agree with my premise.

I believe we have to do some more outside-of-the-box thinking to move from AWEAS (Always War Emperor Any Start) to AWDGAS. Some examples:

• CxxC is well-established, but doing the occasional CxC causes a little trepidation even if it creates a much better tactical situation;
• Building the GL is also pretty standard. 600 shields is a very good investment if you're sure to survive, but on DG I think many starts can't be survived unless you build the 20-30 military units you can get instead. Catching up in tech goes pretty fast with self-research too. There are several stages in the game where you have 4-turn research.
• Tactics: I'm sure that every single AW player has a very good understanding of how to keep the kill ratio high and of AI behavior. But when you're low on troops, it may take just a bit more to get an advantage. Especially in the early game, we'll need a very good coordination of our actions to be able to place our troops where they're needed, and not waste them anywhere else. To do that, players must communicate in detail how the AI troops are moving. That way, we can hopefully come to a troop deployment that forces the AI into a pattern that's best for us. As an example, the AI forces in Own's last screenshot are distributed very differently from what I got when I shadowplayed his turns. It would be interesting to know what makes that difference, so we can use that knowledge to direct the AI.

I don't expect AWDG to be much more difficult than AWE once the human player gets past a certain point. There are certain milestones in the game that will always apply, no matter what difficulty level you play (getting to cavalry, to rails, to RP, ...). I have the feeling that some earlier milestones apply less on the higher difficulty levels (getting the GL, engineering, knights, ...) It's getting past the early milestones and on to the later ones that will win the game.