Musketmen - poor design, poor tech placement?

[kristopherb]

the techs needed for rifling are good and well worth researching

 

[dh_epic]

One of the most important strategic things I've learned in civ is that it's not always smart to spend the 20 extra turns to get the next best unit. Sometimes it's best to strike while the iron's hot.

So you might be tempted to say "I've got Muskets... but you know, I think I really want Cavalry or Grenadiers..." ... but you really ought to try slowing down your research, upgrading a slew of units, and striking with Muskets and Knights.

 

[yavoon]

Has anyone tried bee-lining Gunpowder? It doesn't seem practical. Early in the game, Metal Casting is a moderately expensive tech. Feudalism and Machinery are even more expensive. Guilds and Gunpowder more expensive still.

if muskets were as game impacting as maces or axes or cavalry or rifles then ppl would do it. and I dont mean beeline out the gate, u'd probably stop at maces and kill someone then ur next push would be muskets.

but its irrelevant because maces are better than muskets so there's no point.

 

[scottcstoness]

In a game where you have very narrow opportunities to win wars, Musketmen are a GOD send. As France, you beeline to gunpowder, slam on the research brakes to do some mass upgrading, and send a fleet of musketmen at your enemy. Mind you, I usually end up sending them with Knights (which is a little bizarre).

And the Janissaries are another reason t beeline for gunpowder, if you are playing the Ottomans.

+25% vs. melee, mounted, archery

In other words, you get to gunpowder, and you *own* everything else until they get gunpowder!

 

[Artanis]

I usually end up making a handful of Musketmen when playing as Russia due to the lag between getting Gunpowder and getting Rifling, plus the fact that Cossacks' raw power makes Grenadiers more or less pointless (since I can just pick on somebody else if the enemy gets Riflemen).

 

[a4phantom]

One of the most important strategic things I've learned in civ is that it's not always smart to spend the 20 extra turns to get the next best unit. Sometimes it's best to strike while the iron's hot.

Very true.

So you might be tempted to say "I've got Muskets... but you know, I think I really want Cavalry or Grenadiers..." ... but you really ought to try slowing down your research, upgrading a slew of units, and striking with Muskets and Knights.

But muskets aren't very good attackers (no city raider), and nothing upgrades to them that I know of.

 

[Mutineer]

I am repeating over and over again and no one hear.
Muskets are DRAFTABLE units.
That mean if needed you can draft them in very short time and with out need to have higth production cities.

 

[nullspace]

But if you don't have gunpowder, then you can draft macemen.

 

[dh_epic]

But muskets aren't very good attackers (no city raider), and nothing upgrades to them that I know of.

Ahh, but they have no counters if you get to them early enough. No pre-gunpowder unit has a bonus against gunpowder. Moreoever, they ignore walls and castles.

You're not going to dominate the enemy with musketmen alone. But in combination with either some siege units or some knights, you really can do some damage. Musketeers and Knights are something devestating for their speed.

(Re: speed... It's way more important to winning a war than most people think. I remember in Civ 3, I never used to care about how fast I'd win a war because you would always win eventually. Because of that, I'd ALWAYS pick a better 1 movement unit over a 2 movement unit. But in Civ 4, a war has a lot of costs, and you start to fall behind if you're at war for too long. That's why 2 movement can be so valuable. It lets you do in 12 turns what might otherwise take 20+ turns.)

 

[a4phantom]

Ahh, but they have no counters if you get to them early enough. No pre-gunpowder unit has a bonus against gunpowder. Moreoever, they ignore walls and castles.

But a fully fortified maceman is 10, and may have Combat promos accumulated over 3000 years while the musketman has only new promos, and not City Raider. A fortified longbowman defending a 0 culture city that's not on a hill is 9, and he'll have City Garrison.

You're not going to dominate the enemy with musketmen alone. But in combination with either some siege units or some knights, you really can do some damage. Musketeers and Knights are something devestating for their speed.

Yeah, I suspected that musketeers were probably worthwhile even if standard muskets aren't, as cheap knights without the spear/pike hard counter.

(Re: speed... It's way more important to winning a war than most people think. I remember in Civ 3, I never used to care about how fast I'd win a war because you would always win eventually. Because of that, I'd ALWAYS pick a better 1 movement unit over a 2 movement unit. But in Civ 4, a war has a lot of costs, and you start to fall behind if you're at war for too long. That's why 2 movement can be so valuable. It lets you do in 12 turns what might otherwise take 20+ turns.)

Speed was very important in Civ3 too, although illiberal govts didn't get war weariness. That's why Ottoman Sipahi were so lethal, an unusually high attack on a 3 movement unit.

 

[drkodos]

quechua is the best UU in the game.

Well, that's like, just your opinion, man.

 

[The Great Apple]

Muskets have the advantage that no other units are likely to have promotions against them by the time they arrive, especially in Warlords, where you can't get pinch until Gunpowder.

 

[a4phantom]

Well, that's like, just your opinion, man.

Like uh totally duh?

 

[GenocideBringer]

Exactly. They are an all-round unit.

 

[SmartLittleman]

And the Janissaries are another reason t beeline for gunpowder, if you are playing the Ottomans.

+25% vs. melee, mounted, archery

In other words, you get to gunpowder, and you *own* everything else until they get gunpowder!

Definantly Jans definantly own everything and even if they do get gunpowder get the Pinch promotion for those musketeers

 

[AriochIV]

It should be telling that the AI never seems to build more than a few Musketmen.

 

[alpha wolf 64]

I do it all wrong. i beeline for education and gunpowder that way

 

[BadHorsie]

I think musketmen are useless. I would rather just keep building macemen.

Musketmen need to be improved a bit for them to be any use - perhaps 10 I dunno.

 

[Tavenier]

The fact that they are gunpowder units makes most of the other promotions (like macemen having +50% against melee) useless. So the strength of 9 is not so bad, because you have to fight that s9 with the strength you have, and not with extra promo's. Except for the combat prom, of course. But that goes for the musketmen as well.

 

[Proteus]

But at least it is realistic.

The earliest musketmen weren´t really useful compared to archers and crossbowmen, as the earliest muskets were very inaccurate, had a slow rate of firing and a smaller range than crossbows and longwbows.
The main advantage of the musket was, that you could train large numbers of them in short time, as, compared to the longbow, a musket was rather easy to use (unless trained from childhood on, most peasants wouldn´t even be able to use a longbow because they lacked the necessary strength [a longbow has a rather large drawing weight])

Therefore IMHO the strength of musketmen is O.K. (with the higher strength compared to the longbow reflecting the lareger number of musketmen per troop).
They can be deadly if used correctly, but are weaker than knights if you usew them in disadvantageous terrain.
(one example of using them correctly would be the battle at Nagashino, between Takeda and Tokugawa. Tokugawa positioned its Teppo-Ashigaru (musketmen) behind wooden palisades. This, the fact that Tokugawa used modern line formations (with one row shooting and one row reloading) and the fact that it had rained the day prior to the battle making the ground very muddy, let the battle become a disaster for the mounted Samurais of the Takeda army.
If not for the modern tactics, the palisades and the muddy terrain, the knights of Takeda without doubt would have had a chance to turn the battle into a disaster for the musketmen of Tokugawa).