My experience so far

[Astan]

I tried to play this game with two different civilizations. First i used the Kuriotate which is my favorite civ. I beat the computer on deity setting and several times on Immortal. I used a large Pangea map.

Then i tried the Ilians and i must say that i tried many times to win on immortal difficulty and had no success so far. I don't have a clue how to do it on a map like this.

One more thing that irritates me is that i heard that this game is about a "dark fantasy" setting and that there is a chance that the world will get destroyed. I have never experienced anything like this. In all my Kuriotate wins the armaggedeon counter never even reached 40. Except for the Balseraphs the evil civilizations are usually not very strong. Especially the Sheaim are so weak that i've never seen them become a threat.

Does this game need a little more balancing?

 

[Emptiness]

The AI is currently undergoing a cycle of improvement, and as of the latest patch a number of AI flaws still exist. As the AI continues to be refined, some of the awkwardness of certain civs (in AI control) should be decreased.

The AI has never been particularly good at raising the armageddon counter, and a determined human will almost always be able to prevent armageddon, or to bring it about if that is their goal. Perhaps one day the AI will be able to accomodate AC considerations into its strategy, but for now there are more serious AI concerns that need to be resolved.

The Illians are not one of the easier civs to play. You may wish to try master several other civs first before returning to play them. Victory as the Illians usually comes from raw military might, but their Agnostic nature and the pressure to pursue multiple tech paths puts them into a difficult position economically. Learning to juggle this balance of factors would be better deferred until one has more experience with the mod.

 

[DerWille]

You might consider turning on Last Days to help the computer beef up AC. I also find that if you can leave the Sheaim alone, they'll do a decent job of becoming powerful and spreading hell terrain everywhere. I remember on a fractal map I played the Sheaim had conquered the entire western hemisphere and had spread hell terrain to almost every continent except my own and the other elves.

 

[JonathanStrange]

I've found Deity settings with Pangaea maps to have been pretty tough challenges - though I haven't updated in ages (I've been using a WildMana mod which may or may not explain the difference in AI experiences). Are your wins easy trips to inevitable victory against weak AIs or torturous struggles with survival in doubt as raging barbs and stacks 'o doom approach from all sides? I've seen strong Sheaim nations send stacks of pyre zombies spewing death meant for the sacred forests of the Ljos and in the next game watch weak Sheaim tribes flare up and disappear like matches in a breeze.

There are so many modmods, settings, maps, victory definitions, etc. that it's often difficult to interpret what a player's feedback means - it's difficult even when everyone's using the same mod! I'm just curious; I can easily see one player saying "Simple win! By turn 200, I knew it was only a matter of time" and another gasp "Tough win, it took me to turn 200, before I could relax."

 

[Lone Wolf]

I play the pre - "AI improvements" patch with my own changes so far. I can't win Emperor yet, with the Evil nations being rather strong. My games with my changes were with Faeryl, Varn and Cardith so far. Each time, Hyborem, whom my AI summons pretty early and is given a high weight to settling manes in a city, ruined my game.

 

[Astan]

I've found Deity settings with Pangaea maps to have been pretty tough challenges - though I haven't updated in ages (I've been using a WildMana mod which may or may not explain the difference in AI experiences). Are your wins easy trips to inevitable victory against weak AIs or torturous struggles with survival in doubt as raging barbs and stacks 'o doom approach from all sides?

I haven't tried the mods yet.

The deity game was easy as i managed to avoid war for most of the game. Some games are a struggle and some a walk in the park. It depends on luck a lot. I had many games where i lost at some point but if i get a good starting position i will probably get a win in 40% (a guess) of the Kuriotate games on Immortal. My best game is a win on turn 350 (normal speed).
The Ilians only get 4 coins from their huts and don't get a river bonus for gold. I think on a map like this its probably close to impossible to win with them. They just don't get enough strong units and then get overrun.

 

[Breunor]

I find pretty much any game where I am 'isolated' (by mountains, archipelago, etc.) is rather easy - the AI doesn't seem to understand it is isolated, so I build up my economy and pay less attention to the military. Then I have a powerhouse empire around turn 250 - 300 when I switch to producing troops and the like. then I overwhelm them.

In contrast, where the AI player can constantly declare war, i find it much harder. My results may be impacted by my natural inclination to be a 'builder'.

I find the Illians to be stronger than the Kurios, again, this result may be a play style or map type issue.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Emptiness]

The Ilians only get 4 coins from their huts and don't get a river bonus for gold. I think on a map like this its probably close to impossible to win with them. They just don't get enough strong units and then get overrun.

It is important to know when not to build a Temple of the Hand in a city. I would like to see the Illians receive the river commerce bonus on ice tiles, but for now the potential economic damage of building a Temple in the wrong city is considerable.

 

[Astan]

I usually don't build a temple in my home city because it is my best commerce city but all the other towns usually generate a bit of income too and thats where it hurts.

Can you win with the Ilians on a large Pangea map Emptiness? If you can maybe you could share your tech strategy.

Breunor, the Kuriotate are incredibly strong. Their economy is probably unmatched as far as i can tell and their race settings are just perfect.

 

[Boshi]

I'm enjoying the slow spell quite a bit as the Illians, its really the best thing they have going from them, it converts big wompy SoDs into sitting ducks.

 

[DaveGold]

I think the designers said somewhere that they didn't expect the game to be fully balanced, just fun to play. Having said that the Kurios are a very strong early game nation. The Illians are slow nation with some very good tricks up their sleeve. I expect that if they get Auric to ascend they should always win, however a game played on immortal level is probably won and lost well before that.

If you think the Sheim are weak then try them out for yourself. Push up the armageddon counter and see what happens. Even better, try as Hyborem.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I'm enjoying the slow spell quite a bit as the Illians, its really the best thing they have going from them, it converts big wompy SoDs into sitting ducks.

Rathas! Radiant guards! Blinding light! Blinding light! Blinding light everyone!

They come a bit later then Slow, though.

If you think the Sheim are weak then try them out for yourself. Push up the armageddon counter and see what happens. Even better, try as Hyborem.

The default Sheaim AI does rather poorly, especially Ozzie, who is so cranky in diplomacy (esp. with men), that she suffers from Tokugawa syndrome.

I've seen some strong Sheaim in my Malakim game. They were on another continent then me, and along with the Clan, eliminated the Bannor and the Luchuirp, summoned Hyborem. I've eliminated Hybo, but the Sheaim proved to be too much for me even with the blinding light of Lugus halting the advance of their vile troops.

Hyborem AI is OK when he is taught to settle the manes and is summoned early.

 

[Breunor]

I usually don't build a temple in my home city because it is my best commerce city but all the other towns usually generate a bit of income too and thats where it hurts.

Can you win with the Ilians on a large Pangea map Emptiness? If you can maybe you could share your tech strategy.

Breunor, the Kuriotate are incredibly strong. Their economy is probably unmatched as far as i can tell and their race settings are just perfect.

There are a lot of threads on this. Fast starting Civ's like the Kurios will be very strong on maps favoring early wars (Pangaea for example) but their limitation of three cities, even big ones, will hurt in games where there is a lot of isolation (and esepcailly if ther are few resources).

Please check out these other threads. In a recent thread, Bill Bisco said that he felt the Kurios were very strong, but some of the other top players (like Redercolin and Warkirby) disagreed saying it was one of the weakest . Personally, my experience is closer to Readercolin's. A nice feature of FfH is that there is a lot of difference of opinion here on the 'best' Civ's. But you should recognize that it depends on map choice, game size, options used, and even differences of opinion without those variables. I personally find the Bannor very strong but most players find them a weaker Civ.

Here is that thread (there are many more):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=345254

Yes, you can win with the Illians on a large Pangaea map, but it isn't their best setting. As I said, for large Pangea maps, the fast starting Civ's will be the strongest so for this type of setting, the Illians will probably be weaker than the Kurios. Note that in the referenced thread, Bill Bisco also plays on Pangaea; he also puts the Illians in the second tier, so if they aren't as good as the Kurios here, he puts them still as one of the best.

The Kurios have a real problem with water based maps. Trade is very powerful in FfH, probably more so than in BtS. But if the Kurio cities are all inland, their trade income will be small and it can hurt BAD. If they put their sprawling cities on the coast, it greatly reduces their power.


Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Astan]

I am not convinced. I rarely place my cities next to the water anyway and gold is never a problem. Only tiny islands could be a problem if there isn't enough land to build three decents cities.

In my experience computer-controlled opponents suffer more from water-based maps than humans do because they are slowed in their expansion. Water based maps are a bandaid to allow wins on higher difficulty for civs that can't deal with Pangea, Lakes or Inland Sea. In BTS my only win on God difficulty was on a large continents (water) map because on Lakes or Pangea the computers got too big.

It may be different when dealing with human opponents but against humans getting a technological advantage should be easy. Kuriotates shouldn't have late-game problems either because the game should be over before you get to the late stages. I usually finish between turn 350-400 on normal speed. For most civs that is mid-game.

- large cities
- quick cultural expansion
- at least 2 great personalities before turn 100
- cheap settlers
- +3 to happiness and +3 to medicine
- double speed for granary and elder council
- adaptive cultural trait

I have not tried the other civs that have an economic bonus yet but i can't imagine anyone can beat the above.

 

[Emptiness]

I have not tried the other civs that have an economic bonus yet but i can't imagine anyone can beat the above.

It is natural for different players to prefer different civs. Different play styles are going to work better with different civs, and players are going to tend to be drawn to civs that work well with their play style. Knowing what civ is "the best" is less important than knowing what civ is the best for you.

 

[JonathanStrange]

I've always thought of an AI Kuriotates as one of the weaker civilizations; based mostly on my admittedly circumstantial empirical evidence: in dozens of SP games, the AI Kuriotates (using the Wild Mana mod, pangaea maps, raging barbs, mostly default "blah" settings) usually wind up with mediocre empires at most.

On the few MP games I've played (less than a dozen and none to completion), the Kuriotates (when handled by one of our more successful gamer) did well but not spectacularly well. The Ljosalfars often did as well, curse their good-looking leader.

The "Civ X is overpowered and virtually unbeatable" idea will not disappear - at least not until all acknowledge the Way of the Forests. Once you are all united, like a team of dogs ... er, ummm...like a fellowship of fiends...friends, I mean...

 

[Boshi]

They come a bit later then Slow, though.

Right, what I love about slow is that as far as I can tell its the earliest and easiest way to stop SoDs. There are a lot of better ways to do them of course but you can't do them with one unit in the early game.

As for the Kurios their power varies MASSIVELY according to how you set up the game. If you have a really crowded map then they will dominate but if you have a map with a lot of land per civilization then other civs will grow so much bigger than them that they'll run into problems eventually.

And as far as the Kurios having clearly the best economy then give the elves a try, forest economies can be things of wonder and terror (massive health boosts + forests on every tile + being able to build all improvements without chopping down the forests is really a thing to see).

 

[Astan]

It is natural for different players to prefer different civs. Different play styles are going to work better with different civs, and players are going to tend to be drawn to civs that work well with their play style. Knowing what civ is "the best" is less important than knowing what civ is the best for you.

I wasn't worried about the "fun" aspect, the fun aspect is certainly there with so many very different civs.
I was wondering about the game balance. In BTS the maps with the large landmasses were the most difficult ones and i tried many times unsuccessfully to win on a large Lakes or Pangea map on Deity difficulty. In this game i managed the Deity win on a large Pangea map and it was quite easy with the Kuriotate. Then i tried the Ilians and i can't even win with them on Immortal. To me this indicates that the game balance may not be that good yet.

Now i am wondering, what races are able to win on a large landmass on a high difficulty in this game?

And to Boshi, with the Kuriotate there is no "run into trouble eventually". If you don't get killed early usually you get an easy win against the computers. And humans have to build up their infrastructure. By the time they get big the game may be over.

 

[Breunor]

I've always thought of an AI Kuriotates as one of the weaker civilizations; based mostly on my admittedly circumstantial empirical evidence: in dozens of SP games, the AI Kuriotates (using the Wild Mana mod, pangaea maps, raging barbs, mostly default "blah" settings) usually wind up with mediocre empires at most.

On the few MP games I've played (less than a dozen and none to completion), the Kuriotates (when handled by one of our more successful gamer) did well but not spectacularly well. The Ljosalfars often did as well, curse their good-looking leader.

The "Civ X is overpowered and virtually unbeatable" idea will not disappear - at least not until all acknowledge the Way of the Forests. Once you are all united, like a team of dogs ... er, ummm...like a fellowship of fiends...friends, I mean...

This is my experience also, I find the Kuriotates about average, maybe a tad worse than average. I think the Ljosalfar are one of the stronger ones. I try to play on a lot of different land types so I'm talking about 'average' experience, but I play only 'core' FfH and usually play hitting 'play now' as my setting.

I also think 'best' will be relative to play style.

Best wishes,

Breunor

 

[Boshi]

And to Boshi, with the Kuriotate there is no "run into trouble eventually". If you don't get killed early usually you get an easy win against the computers. And humans have to build up their infrastructure. By the time they get big the game may be over.

How many civilizations are you playing with on what map size and what sea level? This makes a lot of difference with the Kurios.