My fellow Australians

[Marla_Singer]

This is my last post on the topic. I've just checked what was favourite government for each civ and there are real reasons to be shocked !


Why Germany favourite governmen't is Republic instead of Democracy ?
Why France ! Countries which has INVENTED modern democracy (Voltaire, Diderot, Rousseau, Montesquieu) has Republic as favourite government instead of Democracy ?
(For France, it's really outrageous)
Why England ! Countries which is still a Monarchy has as favourite government democracy and not Monarchy or Republic (like France and Germany, what a shame !)
Why Turkey, one of the only real democracy in the muslim world has Republic as favourite government instead of Democracy ?
Why Arabia, civilization that has never been a republic, has republic as favourite government ?


The game is clearly ethno-centrist (focused on the anglo-saxons). I already knew that but I just realized the favourite governments are pure crap !

The best example for that is England having Democracy as favourite government and France having Republic. People made a revolution in France to get rid of those monarchist bastards. Brits are still kissing their feet.

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

France is a Republic today, and has been for a very long time! Ever heard of the Fifth Republic?

The differences between a Republic and a Democracy are not very well defined, the way the game uses them isn't really a good representation.

You seem to be confused. Republic = No Monarch. The day France got rid of its Monarchy it became a Republic.

 

[TerraHero]

I wouldn't make Australie industrious+Agricultural

Agricultural and expansionistic

They have much agriculture thats a fact, but they where also colonised pretty fast..requires a curtain amount of Expansion drive..also i find Agri.+Indus. to powerfull to be put into 1 Civ. it would make for a unfair balancing where a civ is waaaaay overpowerd.

If C3C has any Civ's with those combo's i will curtainly remove those in editor

 

[Marla_Singer]

Enkidu, in Civilization 3, republic represents the government invented by the greeks... just check when it is invented in the tech tree. By the way, greek favourite government should be republic instead of democracy.

On the other side, always in Civ 3, democracy represents the government inspired by the french philosophers (Les Lumières) in the 18th century on the eve of the industrial revolution. As soon as France is the country where modern democracy had been thought and has been also the first country to become a democracy in Europe, I guess its favourite government should be "Democracy". The French Revolution has changed the whole Europe politically speaking. It has no accuracy to put there republic.

Republic in civ 3 is ancient democracy and Democracy in civ 3 os modern Democracy, you see now why it's stupid to put republic as favourite government in France and Germany !

In reality, of course France is a republic, even China is a republic... all countries with no king on his head is a republic. By the way, I think modern democracy should be split in 2 forms : Federal democracy (USA, Germany, Italy) and Centralized democracy (France, England, modern Greece), but that's another topic.

 

[Dargoth]

France and Germany Favoured Goverment should be Monarchy

After all there where 16 odd Loius.

Remeber its the Ottoman empire not Secular Turkey, The Ottomans should have either Monarchy or Feudalism as there favoured goverment

Australias not really expansionist, the whole of Australias territory was already part of the colonies when the nation was declared

 

[Margim]

Just another thought - Australia's unique unit (some sort of infantry, I think we generally agree) would be better served if it was an enhanced rifleman rather than enhanced infantry. An infantry gives us too much of an advantage in the modern game - somehow a rifleman type unit seems to fit better, in my mind (Just think about the slouched hat troopers going of to the Boar War or WW1, where the whole 'Digger' legend in the trenches was formed)

 

[Margim]

Also, just to chip in over the expansionist thing - its worth pointing out that the vast interior of our nation is unihabited desert, and the majority of our population is confined to the eastern/south eastern sea board. Expansionist isn't really our thing.

 

[Dargoth]

Originally posted by Margim
Just another thought - Australia's unique unit (some sort of infantry, I think we generally agree) would be better served if it was an enhanced rifleman rather than enhanced infantry. An infantry gives us too much of an advantage in the modern game - somehow a rifleman type unit seems to fit better, in my mind (Just think about the slouched hat troopers going of to the Boar War or WW1, where the whole 'Digger' legend in the trenches was formed)

Riflemen are Napoleonic Infantry/ American Civil war type units

Im basing the "Diggers" on WW1/WW2 ie the guys who stopped the Japs at Kakoda and Rommel at Tobruk

 

[Margim]

Sure, fair enough... I was really just toying with ideas to keep the game balanced. I just thought beefed up infantry might actually mess too much with our place in the modren world, where as its a little more even if we have our powerful unit when others have stronger cavs. But I'm not going to argue - I think both reasons have their strong points.

 

[Dargoth]

Originally posted by Margim
Sure, fair enough... I was really just toying with ideas to keep the game balanced. I just thought beefed up infantry might actually mess too much with our place in the modren world, where as its a little more even if we have our powerful unit when others have stronger cavs. But I'm not going to argue - I think both reasons have their strong points.

All the UU seem to have a 1 point difference between themselves and there Generic contempory so 11 Defence Australian UU wont be over kill

By the way have you seen a Colour photo of Mezies anywhere?

Theres 1960s Menzies

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/PhotoSearchItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=11219981


and 1950s Menzies

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/PhotoSearchItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=11223407

Both are unfortunately Black and white

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

Originally posted by Marla_Singer
Enkidu, in Civilization 3, republic represents the government invented by the greeks... just check when it is invented in the tech tree. By the way, greek favourite government should be republic instead of democracy.

On the other side, always in Civ 3, democracy represents the government inspired by the french philosophers (Les Lumières) in the 18th century on the eve of the industrial revolution. As soon as France is the country where modern democracy had been thought and has been also the first country to become a democracy in Europe, I guess its favourite government should be "Democracy". The French Revolution has changed the whole Europe politically speaking. It has no accuracy to put there republic.

Republic in civ 3 is ancient democracy and Democracy in civ 3 os modern Democracy, you see now why it's stupid to put republic as favourite government in France and Germany !

In reality, of course France is a republic, even China is a republic... all countries with no king on his head is a republic. By the way, I think modern democracy should be split in 2 forms : Federal democracy (USA, Germany, Italy) and Centralized democracy (France, England, modern Greece), but that's another topic.

Yes , I agree. But you can see the rational in giving France the Republic as its favoured government even though in game terms it's not really sensible. In real life terms the concept of "ancient democracy" as you put doesn't make a whole load of sense.

There is no real definition of Republic vs Democracy as a form of government in real life. The word Republic means different things in different countries, so there's no point in arguing about what the prefered governments different civs should have. The only universal definition of Republic is the lack of any Monarchy, but as you mentioned it can also refer to a decentralised system of government (France is actually very centralised, so in this sense it is not a Republic, but the fact that it calls itself the fifth republic is presumably why they have it as their preferred government).

No country is a true democracy - the people don't make the decisions, they elect people to make the decisions for them - this is yet another definition of a republic. I don't know about you but it's all very confusing to me. Maybe there are some politics students out there who can better explain the difference between a republic and a democracy.

 

[Margim]

It's not colour, but its a decent photo

http://www.menziesfoundation.org.au/rgm.htm

Or try having a look at

http://www.menziesvirtualmuseum.org.au/index.html

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

By the modern age, one extra point on ADM is not going to make much difference. How about +1 A and +1 D, or extra hitpoints?

 

[Balastulin]

Originally posted by Marla_Singer
This is my last post on the topic. I've just checked what was favourite government for each civ and there are real reasons to be shocked !


Why Germany favourite governmen't is Republic instead of Democracy ?
Why France ! Countries which has INVENTED modern democracy (Voltaire, Diderot, Rousseau, Montesquieu) has Republic as favourite government instead of Democracy ?
(For France, it's really outrageous)
Why England ! Countries which is still a Monarchy has as favourite government democracy and not Monarchy or Republic (like France and Germany, what a shame !)
Why Turkey, one of the only real democracy in the muslim world has Republic as favourite government instead of Democracy ?
Why Arabia, civilization that has never been a republic, has republic as favourite government ?


The game is clearly ethno-centrist (focused on the anglo-saxons). I already knew that but I just realized the favourite governments are pure crap !

The best example for that is England having Democracy as favourite government and France having Republic. People made a revolution in France to get rid of those monarchist bastards. Brits are still kissing their feet.

Britain is a constitutional monarchy. The Monarch hasn't had any real political power since Union of Parliaments in 1707 and was one of the first monarchies to relinquish any power back in 1215 at the Magna Carta signing (English Kings signing a Latin document whilst speaking French. Hmm...)

 

[Mobilize]

I'm sorry to say this but Australia shouldn't be put in Civilization unless if modded.

1) Australia pledges allegiance to the British Crown.
2) Australia has done what as a Civilization? They are English and Aboriginee civs combined.
3) Australia is a national identidy. Same with the US. Both of these should not be included, however.. the US has done a whole lot for the Industrial and Modern Ages.. what has Australia done? Not much.

I'm not condemning such a mod, I just think that people who take Australia not being a civ badly are just greedy über-nationalists.

Well, still interesting mod.

 

[Dargoth]

Originally posted by Mobilize
I'm sorry to say this but Australia shouldn't be put in Civilization unless if modded.

1) Australia pledges allegiance to the British Crown.
2) Australia has done what as a Civilization? They are English and Aboriginee civs combined.
3) Australia is a national identidy. Same with the US. Both of these should not be included, however.. the US has done a whole lot for the Industrial and Modern Ages.. what has Australia done? Not much.

I'm not condemning such a mod, I just think that people who take Australia not being a civ badly are just greedy über-nationalists.

Well, still interesting mod.

if you want to look at that way then there reallyy shouldnt be ANY nation based civs

The only Civs would be


Western Civilization (including all the nations of Prodestant/Catholic Europe

Latin American Civilization (All South American and Central american nations)

Islamic Civilization (All the Muslim countries)

Orthodox civilization (All the Orthodox countries)

and

China

 

[Balastulin]

Originally posted by Mobilize
I'm sorry to say this but Australia shouldn't be put in Civilization unless if modded.

1) Australia pledges allegiance to the British Crown.
2) Australia has done what as a Civilization? They are English and Aboriginee civs combined.
3) Australia is a national identidy. Same with the US. Both of these should not be included, however.. the US has done a whole lot for the Industrial and Modern Ages.. what has Australia done? Not much.

I'm not condemning such a mod, I just think that people who take Australia not being a civ badly are just greedy über-nationalists.

Well, still interesting mod.

Excuse me! But you seem to have forgotten about Australian Rules Football! Only a truly great civilisation could produce a sport more violent, bloody and cruel than the Gladiators.

 

[Margim]

Originally posted by Mobilize
I'm sorry to say this but Australia shouldn't be put in Civilization unless if modded.

1) Australia pledges allegiance to the British Crown.
2) Australia has done what as a Civilization? They are English and Aboriginee civs combined.
3) Australia is a national identidy. Same with the US. Both of these should not be included, however.. the US has done a whole lot for the Industrial and Modern Ages.. what has Australia done? Not much.

I'm not condemning such a mod, I just think that people who take Australia not being a civ badly are just greedy über-nationalists.

Well, still interesting mod.

Well, now you've done it...

1) Australia is self governing. If you knew anything about Australia, you would know that there is only a ceremonial connection to the monarchy.

2-3) Australia, my friend, is the ONLY nation every to cover an entire continent (and then some, if you want to count tasmania, norfolk island, and other pacific nations that we had periods of administrative control over such as Papua New Guinea, Nauru, etc). We are not English, we don't even sound like them contrary to what most Americans believe. Niether are we Aborigine (although I have respect for Aborigne culture, they make up a very small proportion of our population).
We haven't had the ground shaking impact on the world the US has had, but we've played our part in our fair share of wars, including battling in the trenches of Europe and deserts of Africa/the Middle East long before the US decided to help out. We also played a part in the war in the pacific. We had military contributions in the Boar War, Vietnam, Korea and Iraq. We've contributed to scientific breakthroughs, compete despite a relatively small population with just about anyone at most sports, and have contributed our fair shair of artists. We have been and remain the only major power of all the pacific nations (regionally pacific ie In Oceania), making up three quarters of the regions population. Our land area is the seventh largest in the world, our electoral system the most democratic in the world, and our society one of the most culturally diverse, ethinically tolerant in the world.

That being said, I don't think Australia should be in Civilization, except as a mod - which is precisely what we are talking about doing here. So give us a break and let us have our fun (and I'm tipping you would be just as annoyed had your country of residence been excluded.)

ps. If being a national entity was a reason to exclude anyone, then I guess you'd also have to remove the french, the germans, the russians, the english, the dutch, the spanish, the portuguese, etc - in the end, its just a matter of personal perspective

 

[Schmibbens]

If any of the British colonies deserve a civ, it's Canada. We have had more particpipation in wars and history in general then Asutrailia. Were also really big . First post by the way.

 

[benstandby]

Originally posted by Kudos
Australia is in Conquests. They're called the English and the leader is Queen Elizabeth.

nice