My First Online Game

Make sure to settle the good spots soon- now that you've opened borders, since the AI has no settlement options without crossing your territory I believe he will start considering doing so. Also, Mecca looks like a pretty awesome great person farm if you should happen to... acquire it. :)
 
Be very wary of galleys going your way, Sally won't take long to try to settle your back yard. If you think he's smuggling settlers just close borders, no penalty and you won't lose much TRs at this stage with his expansion severely stifled. How you managed to complete the block before he made his first settler is beyond me though.

In the capital I'd be working the pig, a scientist or two and building a settler or a worker instead of a granary. You seem to be much more whip-happy than me though.

For tech I'd think about either Poly->Monarchy or Aes->Lit for Marble Madness and try to get Alpha from Sally when he techs it. Probably Monarchy first, I can't seem to remember what difficulty level this is (= how early the wonders are going to go).
 
Something seems strange here, how does Saladin have a capitol with 3 clams and a corn and still be at pop 4 with only one city? His score of 126 to your 204 says he can't have a lot more than that but he really should. I have never played a game at monarch and gotten to 4 cities, even with imperialistic chopping, without an AI having at least 2 and many times 4 cities. He's churned out 3 workboats so he had to grow a lot, where did all that pop go unless he whipped the WBs? And even then all that food should have his pop booming back almost immediately. He had to have been nailed by some serious event problems. When you take his Capitol copterman it's gonna be a monster money city or GP Farm for you. The Colossus and Maori Statues built there would be just ugly.
 
Something seems strange here, how does Saladin have a capitol with 3 clams and a corn and still be at pop 4 with only one city? His score of 126 to your 204 says he can't have a lot more than that but he really should. I have never played a game at monarch and gotten to 4 cities, even with imperialistic chopping, without an AI having at least 2 and many times 4 cities. He's churned out 3 workboats so he had to grow a lot, where did all that pop go unless he whipped the WBs?

He starts without Agriculture or Fishing, he went Polytheism as his first tech, and with 3 seafood he is hardwired to build 3 workboats before anything else when he is able to. Not the most optimal of starts :) He also went what looks to be multiple Galleys pretty early. For 4pop you just need a single 2pop whip for a lighthouse or granary for example from his happy cap, that's not too weird on its own.
 
Sounds plausible. I am just amazed he only has one city. It's gonna be a monster city for copterman when he takes it. I'd launch against it before he stacks too many units in there or manages to spread via galley too much. It's such a pain to have to track down all those island cities.:)

He might have a city on the piece of land on the other side of his capitol but he can't have many. I thought I read somewhere that they won't run settlers through your territory unless there is a gap in your culture wall? Maybe I imagined that but I would watch out for the amphibious settlers. They can be annoying.
 
He might have a city on the piece of land on the other side of his capitol but he can't have many. I thought I read somewhere that they won't run settlers through your territory unless there is a gap in your culture wall? Maybe I imagined that but I would watch out for the amphibious settlers. They can be annoying.

You're right, no one was contradicting that as far as I can see.

I'd actually not rush into taking him down. He can be forced to only settle island cities to the east which are worth a ton of $$$ via internationalcontinental trade routes (I seem to talk a lot about trade routes in this thread...) and there's plenty of land to settle without declaring. Sure it's a nice GP farm spot but not worth taking right away IMO due to loss of a trading partner. When taking it you need to prepare with boats too since those island cities of his will encroach it with culture.

Another big priority here is WB scout to east and north but I guess da choppa is on it since he was planning on some WBs already :)
 
Thanks for the save Copterman. :) As suspected, the resources you’ve explored to the north did indeed change the nature of the proposed city sites. So you can get an idea, I’ve enclosed a proposed dotmap for you in the attached save.

The most important thing IMHO that the save highlighted was that the site NE of the clams can only serve as a very short term GP farm at best. As soon as you settle the riverside site to its north for a 2nd horses, that new city will need the pigs (assuming you cottage up the 2nd horse site). Indeed you’ll also notice that I’ve got a couple of other city sites sharing resources eg. fish / 2 gems / corn to the NW and the gems / corn site right on the island’s north coast. As with the NE of clam spot, the northernmost corn / gem site (which is necessary to work the gems IMHO) may well get an early boost borrowing the corn from the fish / gems site on the NW. You could also move the fish site 1S to temporarily borrow the corn but, long term, the corn is needed by the corn / clam site to work all those plains. Note also that I’ve added a junk city on one of the spices just to work all the tiles on the island.

That northern coastline BTW looks to be some very nice land (in the context of the island you’re on). Clearly, the 2 gem site is the best early site available since it raises the happy cap and provides you some much needed commerce, but it’s only of use to you after you get IW. NE of clams has the advantage that you could can already use its clams and pig, maybe cottage the FP and it can serve as a GP farm until you settle the 2nd horses. Fur city will raise the happy cap and provide some much needed commerce, whilst sites N and NE will block land. IMHO, settling either NE of clams or fish / fur next has merit, but I'd lean toward the NE of clam site if you're comfortable with some heavy whipping / using cottages / specialists to stay under the happy cap. (After all, I note an academy in the capital will pop borders and give you the furs in approx 50 turns.) I'd be very interested to see what better players than me suggest though. Of course, the order in which you settle the cities and maybe even the city sites themselves may change depending on where / if you have iron.

The other thing I think your save highlights is just how good Saladin’s capital is. In short, it’s the best GP farm on the island and is a holy city. Others may disagree given the trade routes he could provide you with but, to me, the potential to later get gold from a shrine means he’s becoming a very juicy target. Although very unlikely, it’d be great if he built either the GLH and / Colossus for you given how handy either or both will be on this map by the looks of it. (That said, my experience is that he’ll build military, so there’s value in getting him to pleased to avoid him DoWing on you.)

IMHO, your tech path at this point depends on where you settle next. If the fish / fur site, then I’d recommend detouring to hunting before finishing masonry, otherwise finish masonry to hook up the marble. Once done, you need to clear the jungle to the north and establish if you have iron (which may help guide the timing of a war with Saladin – after all, if he has copper and you have no iron, things could get interesting), so that means I’d tech IW after masonry. To help speed research, I’d recommend working the pigs and sheep, and temporarily running two scientists in the capital (which is starting to suffer from whip weariness) while you finish the barracks. (You’ll need to adjust tiles there to time regrowth on the turn whip weariness wears off.) As IW approaches, have another city build a settler for the 2 gem site. Once the capital generates a GS, you might consider removing one or both of the scientists to whip a settler or a worker who could build a cottage or two. (Indeed, building and working cottages across your empire is something you need to assign a high priority to as you note in order to help pay for expansion.) BTW, whilst the GS could bulb maths for you (which is actually not without merit when you’re RExing or warring since it subsequently opens up the potential for very early access to currency or catas), I’d be more inclined to either settle it or build an academy to maintain research while you're expanding.

In other cities, I’d whip a warrior in Bursa pronto: the fact that the city is your only source of horses at the mo’ means it deserves a garrison IMHO. I think you also need to build a road W of Edirne to speed troop movement. Your workers need to improve Bursa’s pigs and horses ASAP as I’m sure you’re aware. And another worker or two would be handy – yep, I know, loads to do but you’re doing very well. :goodjob: Once done, I’d also produce a few chariots, as a defence to barbs and deterrent to Saladin – I note all the expansion and infrastructure building means that you’re 7th in power from the demographics screen. That reminds me, in your next game, it might be worthwile building an extra worker or two rather than early infrastructure to ensure that your cities are working improved tiles as often as possible. In fact, I think you mention at one point that there’s not much to build; going forward, think first whether building another worker would help at such a point. As I’m sure you’re aware, getting around 1.5 workers per city and maybe even 2 per city if mired in jungle is a very good norm.

Lastly, a couple more tips to help improve your civ. I notice from the screenies that you seem to be whipping things when they have just one turn left to build. It’s much more efficient for you to whip instead when you’re one or two turns away from growing another pop – that way, you get back the tile(s) you whip away ASAP and can then get the food, hammer and / or commerce benefit from the tile(s) again. The only exception to this AFAIK is the granary where an article I’ll put up shortly suggests you should whip it either when the food bin is half full or just before. (The short answer is that time when it’s most efficient to whip a granary varies.) To see, perhaps try this in Edirne with the granary there – let the pop grow to 4 and the food bin to roughly somewhere between 10 and 14 /28 and then whip the granary for 2 pop. You’ll be pleasantly surprised how quickly the city regrows. (All that said though, I'd be inclined to put another turn into the granary, switch to a worker for one turn, whip it for 2 pop and then continue the gramary. That worker will come in real handy cottaging the FP if you settle NE of clams.) The other thing I noticed from the save is that you seem to be switching builds in a number of cities. Whilst queuing them is fine, just be aware of hammer decay, which I’m sure you know.

Hope this helps. As mentioned, very well played to date. :goodjob: Look forward to seeing the next round. :D

Edit: Two other points I thought about after my post when looking at your save again. Firstly, with its fish and pigs, Bursa could also run a few early scientists but this would require raising the happy cap assuming you work the pigs, fish, horses and 2 scientists. (Running scientists in Bursa would give you the added advantage of being able to cottage the capital for commerce or work mines for settlers / workers.) Perhaps this argues in favour of settling the furs next? Admittedly, there is also the very tempting option of changing the tech path to iron and sailing and settling the fish / corn / 2 gems site to do this but, IMHO, I’d wait until you can produce a chariot to escort your worker, settler and defend the city if going this route (given how isolated & difficult to reinforce the city will be). Maintenance costs would also be a short term concern but this would cease once the gems were mined and roaded. The second point meanwhile was another exception to the whip at the sweet spot argument: monuments frequently get whipped immediately the population reaches 2 to pop the borders ASAP.
 

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For memory on normal hammers decay after 50 turns for buildings. 10 for units.
 
When I try to open the save, it says I cannot open version 3.02. I seem to have 3.01 but there's no option for updating. In fact, when I click on "ABOUT THIS BUILD" it says "FINAL RELEASE."

I'm using a mac. Is that it?
 
Copterman: The reference to 3.01 suggests you’re not using patch 3.19 (which is the latest one) and is why you’re also seeing the reference to save version 3.02. Just to check, if you load up civ and select advanced (from the main menu) > about this build (from the next menu) what civ version are you playing? The latest is 319 (corresponding to patch 3.19) – but my guess is that you’ll see 317, corresponding to an earlier patch numbered 3.17.

All that said, my understanding is that the savegames are not backward compatible so, if you had saved the game under patch 3.17, I shouldn't be able to open it (which obviously I managed to do) using the latest patch 3.19 on my PC. Out of curio therefore, did you start up the game on another PC which is patched to 3.19 before switching to your mac – which is using patch 3.17?

If, BTW, you’re using patch 3.17, to update to 3.19, simply load up civ and select advanced from the main menu, the select check for updates. As long as your internet connection is active, my understanding is that the game will then update automatically to 3.19. That said, you may want to finish this game (which you may lose the ability to load if you update to 3.19) before applying the latest patch.

BTW, if anyone has any ideas, we’d be glad to hear them.

PS: Anyone else having the same problem?

Edit: Another option you may want to consider - apply patch 3.19 to your mac and play from the savegame, which is a version 3.19 file... would avoid you losing the game.
 
I found the 3.19 patch, but I can't update since I'm playing a PBEM game with some friends right now. Will have to wait til that game is complete.
 
Here's my advice: go home, newbie!


PS. Saladin's capital is AMAZING! Mecca is truly Mecca.
 
Round 4: 1200-775 (14 turns)

This is where I feel like I start to play poorly. Not sure what to do once I get past the first part of the game. I guess it's the result of countless reloads.

First off, a barb archer threatens Bursa. I switch from a granary to a warrior. I will be able to whip him just in time, but will he save the city?

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Elsewhere in my kingdom, the clam city is founded.

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Somehow, my unfortified warrior manages to win. That was close.

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Not sure what's wrong with this screenshot, but you can see that Saladin has founded 2 more cities.

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After researching masonry, I went for hunting in anticipation of the fur city. I need happiness. I've decided to take a crack at the Oracle since I have marble. I'm now one turn from priesthood.

Which leads me to my next question. What do I do with my early scientist? Academy? Settle?

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Here's the current map.

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I have 4 workers and Istanbul is about to put out my 5th. I plan on settling the fur next and taking a crack at the Oracle. Should I make a beeline for Literature and the GL since I have marble?
 

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Regarding the GS, I'd settle him then use your next one for an academy (unless you want to pop Philo, but that's for another day). GL you should get easily without sacrificing a whole lot but it really is up to you -- this start is so great that you could do a lot of things. Just don't get too sidetracked and try to maintain a focus, in particular you will want to get plenty of workers out and improve the land. It's great land :). You'll want to grow big to work all those juicy cottages you're going to have so I'd prioritise Monarchy for HR. And as I said in an earlier post, don't worry if the economy slows, just be sure to cottage, run scientists, get currency, etc. This is a super start to play around with.
 
GS use depends a bit on your future plans, mainly how you're planning to pay the bills. If you plan to continue running scientists in capital and just having the odd cottage here and there, either settle in capital or build an Academy there.

If you plan to do what I usually do in a situation like this (planning on a lot of specialists, all-purpose capital, much food resources in secondary cities) which is to cottage the capital for max Bureucracy profit and run max specialists in other cities, then settling in capital (future Oxford site) is almost a no-brainer as you'd be getting more GSs soon and the cottages you start growing soon aren't immediately as useful as scientists. If you go this route then stop grinding specialists in capital and start building cottages and infra.

TGL looks to be another no-brainer here; building location is a bit more debatable if you go cottage capital. I'd probably aim for it in Edirne (culture defense) or Konya (good food) to help the scientist grind more. Also with Literature you get a fast NE which helps.

Get Sailing at some point pretty soon to get trade routes to the other island. I'm divided between going Monarchy, Aes->Lit and Sailing first, all have their perks. Probably the Aes route to make sure the getting of Parthenon and TGL; with those you are pretty much set for life.

Oh, and complete the spawnbust with 1 more unit up north, or rearrange the current busters so that there's just 2 unbusted tiles (1S of spice, 1N of Corn).
 
The oracle eh? Interesting...I find it’s gone more often than not by this stage. What does that tell you about the rival civs on the map; perhaps they’re not renowned for wonder building? Early I know, it’ll be interesting to see.

I think Leventis’ post is spot on in so many ways. Focus is undoubtedly the key if you find yourself struggling after the initial start. Always ask yourself before building or teching anything: how does this contribute to me winning the game?

Re: the oracle. Try building / chopping / whipping it in Edirne IMHO...it will help fight some of Saladin’s culture. (Talking of Saladin, note that he’s at cautious so he can still DoW on you...you need to get him to pleased to eliminate that threat IIRC.) If you manage to finish The Oracle, CoL and MC are the usual slingshots, aesthetics opens up an early GL (with literature), monarchy may be a thought given the happy cap issue.

Re: scientist. Agree with Silu that it depends on your long term plans IMHO. If you plan to cottage the capital, settling will boost early research. GS #2 could then build an academy as Leventis notes to harness the longer term benefit of the cottages. If you’re planning on retaining the science specialists for the long haul, go for an academy.

Re: future tech path. Literature and aesthetics are fine for the marble (although it may be that the real value of that resource lies in the HE given the earlier point I made about rival civs) but don’t overlook the value of IW in case Saladin decides to DoW. It would also be handy for capturing those gems. As Silu notes, sailing would also be very handy for trade routes, not only with Saladin, but also with connecting the gems to the capital if you settle them.

Look forward to seeing what you do. :)
 
Round 5: 775-400 BC (15 turns)

In this round, I expanded my empire and acquired Monarchy to enable city growth.

I went ahead and settled my GS, and after discovering Priesthood, I actually took a detour to go after Sailing. The Intercontinental trade routes can't hurt.

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In order to fight Saladin's culture as well as acquire a free tech, I decided to try and build the Oracle in Edirne.

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I finally managed to hook up horses though I built a grand total of 0 chariots this round.

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I was working a few unimproved tiles in Edirne and didn't want to risk losing out on the Oracle, so I whipped one turn early. I was researching Monarchy so I decided to snag CoL.

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Not long after that, I researched Monarchy and switched to HR. I also settled these three cities in this order:

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I'm thinking I'll research IW next in order to expand to the north and improve thos luscious gems. Will push for GL after that.

Here's the world map.

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I'm 9 turns away from IW and my science slider is at 20, so I figure I'll halt expanding for now. Time to grow my cities and infrastructure. Guess I need to build some chariots to discourage Saladin from attacking me. He is pleased so I think it unlikely.

So how am I doing?
 

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Hey Copter, just opened up your latest save and you're still going along nicely, but I thought I'd make a few points.

Firstly, you need to start addressing your economy and that means prioritisng currency. This will help out more than courthouses at this stage. Maybe think about bulbing maths with your next GS (6 or 7 turns), so that once IW is done you can just tech currency immediately. Keep in mind that this will also open up your UB, which is a super UB btw. Nonetheless you're teching quite well considering 8 cities at 400BC.

Onto your cities: That gems city up north is going to take forever to pop its borders so you can claim the gems - it simply has no production in its 1st ring to build a monument. You desperately need to hope for Hinduism to spread there or else grow big with that food tile and then whip for 2 or 3 pop.

Courthouses are fine to build, in your capital at this stage is pretty much pointless. You need workers badly, at least another 5 or 6 (you have 5 atm in 8 city empire). Cottages are still a priority and you will soon need to clear that northern jungle ASAP for the gems etc.

In terms of your overall stategy, Saladin is really not an issue and can be crushed whenever you can afford to build some units. He only has 3 cities and is not going anywhere so I'd just wait and keep him around for backfill trades. Kill him when you meet the other civs I say. Oh, and he won't think of declaring on you unless you somehow drop to cautious. Keep going Copter, good stuff :goodjob:
 
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