My first "public" game

[Thalur]

Starting position: this post
Round 1: to 3520 BC (turn 32)
Round 2: to 2725 BC (turn 85)
Round 3: to 1770 BC (turn 173)

Hi all,

Following on from my thread here, I'm starting my first public game in the hopes that constructive criticism from you guys (and gals?) will help me improve my game. My main goal for this game is to learn how to effectively use specialists and great people in my cities for doing research (see how I avoided the use of the 'e' word there? ). And, of course, to figure out the ins and outs of posting a game on these forums.

Down to business; I'm playing as Suleiman of the Ottomans (Phil, Imp) on Noble difficulty with a Large map size and Marathon game speed. I'm using BTS 3.31 with the unofficial patch from these forums. The map is Hemispheres with (IIRC) 3 continents and the default 8 AIs for the large map size.

Suleiman's unique unit is the Janissary, a Musketman replacement with a 25% bonus against melee, archery and mounted units. This really needs an early push to gunpowder to let me make best use of it, as it is at its best before the enemy gets gunpowder units, although adding the pinch promotion would extend the Janissaries' useful life until grenadiers/riflemen arrive.

The unique building is the Hammam, an Aqueduct replacement which adds +2 happiness on top of the usual +2 health. This should enable larger cities earlier, and reduce the impact of war weariness later on. I would rate this as a fairly middle-of-the-road unique building: not as useful as some, but not as useless as others, either.

My starting techs are agriculture and the wheel.

So here is the starting position:

It doesn't look like much at the moment - lots of water, which isn't great as I don't start with fishing. The two corn tiles are very promising however (thats three specialists right there), and the plains hill 2E of the settler looks like it might be a good spot to build.

My first move would be to pop the goody hut with the warrior and move the settler to the plains hill (probably by moving one square NE followed by one square SE in case it lets me see a bit more). Does anyone have any alternatives?

I am a little unsure about where my initial tech research should go. I understand that the Pyramids are rather... useful for running a specialist strategy, so I think they should be on my shopping list in some fashion or the other. I presume I cannot choose between the 'normal' way and the oracle/metal casting gambit until I've seen the terrain around my city? Also, does the difficulty, map size and game speed (noble/large/marathon) help, hinder or prevent the gambit at all?

As I start with agriculture and the wheel, I presume mining should be my first tech, then I will probably have to decide which way I'm going to build the pyramids before I can tech much further.

I guess my first build should be a worker, to get the corn tiles farmed quickly. I normally prefer to start with something that lets my city grow a bit first, but I'm not convinced that is the best way to go. For this start, the presence of corn and starting with agriculture makes me think that building a worker first will be best in the long run.

Well, thats me about done for the night. I welcome any and all suggestions, beginner and expert alike, and particularly if you can explain why you would do something a particular way. Assistance with the oracle/MC gambit would be greatly appreciated as well. I've attached my saved game if anyone wants to play a shadow game, with the usual caveat that if anyone uses it, please don't post any spoilers!

Thanks.

 

[r_rolo1]

I would definitely settle in place... besides the corn farms, you have 3 lake tiles in the BFC... With sailing ( yeah ,I know that is not on the top of your shopping list... but don't forget that you're in a coastal start ,unless you want to wander around a bit ) and a lighthouse they are better than riverside farms ( 3F2C vs 3F1C )....

On the Oracle/MC gambit: I sense that you already read a little about it, so I'll not stress much the basics ( you have to self research pottery and BW before the Oracle is finished in one of the cities, chop/Whip a forge in the other ( before it passes 6 turns from oracle completion, to the GE points surpass the GP points of the Oracle ) and GE rush the Mids ( hopefully in thesame city that has the forge, to get another GE for the Great library... but that is a entirely diferent business ) ). But for that to work you'll need or a good :whip: site or a good chopping area for the second city....

 

[BurN]

What an annoying start position. It's not a great place to settle with all the water tiles and your warrior is on the other side so it can't check for a better settling spot.

You could take a chance by going for the plains hill but it's a big shot in the dark. I wouldn't risk it. But on the other hand there seems to be a lot of forest to chop away on that side. I dunno, I'd wait for some more input.
Can't say much about techs yet, depends where you're going to settle and what will be revealed.

If you would settle in place I'd go for mining->bw. Afterwards it depends what you want to do. You can try mysticism->masonry for stonehenge+mids. But all depends on the land around you.

Edit: What kind of se are you planning to run? bulb or sse?
Edit2: Oracle/mc is an option but if you want mids w/o stone as phil leader? I'm not familiar with how fast the ai builds wonders on noble but I wouldn't risk that IF you're planning a sse.

 

[Egnarts]

Unless your going for a early religion spending a couple turns moving a settler from a bad spot isnt game breaking or even something I consider a disadvantage.

 

[Thalur]

Well, I popped the goody hut for a map... of empty ocean . So I moved the settler to the plains hill to see what we can see (after all, on marathon one turn isn't a large amount of time!). The result is below:

Not particularly inspiring, is it?
By my reckoning, settling where I started gives +12 food from the lakes, corn, 1 grassland farm and the city, which isn't too bad. If I move to the hill, I loose out on +3 from the lakes and gain one more grassland farm, but I potentially have a lot more production and room for tile improvements (cottages, farms post civil service). I'm still torn between the two sites (and curious about what makes the computer recommend the spots it does). The original start location looks better on paper, so unless anyone shouts otherwise I'll go back there.

@Burn: I'm aiming for a settled SE.
@r_rolo1: I've read Sisiutil's Frederik ALC where he does the oracle/MC gambit, but that was on a smaller map and a much faster game speed, so I'm a little concerned that playing a larger map and a slower game may make it unworkable.

 

[DaveMcW]

The initial site is much better for running lots of specialists in your capital. In addition the the lakes, you lose 2 by moving off freshwater.

However, the hill is better for building the Pyramids. And 2 corn should be good for one or two GPs while searching for a better GP farm.

 

[vicawoo]

1N of original. Minimize pure ocean, lots of hills, fresh water, 4 fresh water, and you don't waste a grasslands.

 

[r_rolo1]

1N of original spot is not coastal, and that only makes it worse than the original spot ( can't build lighthouse -> lake tile yield is 2F 2C ). I would settle in the original spot and would let those forests for chopping a forge in 2nd city ( maybe sharing a corn ? )

About the Oracle/MC/Mids gambit: i think that Marathon will make it easier....

 

[McGoo]

Well, I popped the goody hut for a map... of empty ocean .

I would have waited to pop that hut until you had built your city. Without a city, I think you lose the chance at picking up a free tech.

I would settle in the starting position. I am not as anti-water as most though. And this postion has only one ocean in the BFC.

 

[Charou]

I would have settled the original spot. nevermind.
the desert tile looks like a good city spot to built the Moai Statues. don´t you think ?

 

[McGoo]

I would have settled the original spot. nevermind.
the desert tile looks like a good city spot to built the Moai Statues. don´t you think ?

If the OP settles in the original spot, I think they would be too much overlap. The cap may be a potential location for the Moai Statues....does anyone know if the production bonus is added to lakes as well as ocean/coast? Normally I rarely build the Statues in the capitol, but in this case it might make sense.

Also, if the MC slingshot is pulled off, the Colossus may be a good play. In that case, those lake tiles will be 3,1, and 3 . Not too shaby.

 

[v8_mark]

Yes, the production bonus is given to all water tiles. Lakes are very lucrative indeed with a lighthouse and the Maois.

Personally, I would settle 1S of the corn, on the plains hill - this is a reasonable short-term production spot (for either the 'mids or a few units) and a good long-term commerce city (grassland for cottages). It is kind of dependent on finding some good food sources for specialist cities elsewhere though.

I agree that the desert tile is a great spot for the Maois. It would be even better were there a seafood resource in the vicinity.

 

[Thalur]

Round 1: to 3520BC
I went with the majority and returned to my original starting position, where I founded Istanbul. I started construction of a worker and began researching Mining.

Meanwhile, my warrior set out to explore the surrounding area. Along the way he encountered our first competitor: Ramesses II of Egypt (this was in 3550BC) I found him to the north east of Istanbul, near where the warrior is in the last screen shot below.

Once Mining finished researching, I started on Bronze Working so that I am ready to chop and whip my way to victory And that pretty much brings us up to date. I ran a few more turns until the worker finished building and then finished the round.

To my south is a nice cluster of spices (5 tiles) plus a pig and lots of river tiles. To the south of that is a huge band of jungle. Once calendar comes along I think this will probably make a nice commerce city (SE of the pig?), but I'm not sure if its the best place for city #2.

The last picture for this round is the world so far:

At the moment, I'm thinking that the best spot for city #2 is just SW of the northern pigs tile. There it can share one of the capital's corn tiles, share a mine tile, plus its own pigs tile, and it has lots of forests for chopping (remember it has to build the forge within something like 6 turns - it may be more on marathon speed?). Alternatively, if I don't need to share the corn I could budge it one spot to the east to get the fresh water bonus.

After that, I'm not really sure where else is good for a city. I've done a quick dotmap (here) but the last two cities were just placed based on how to get the most resource tiles.

Plans:
Ok, so that is what the world looks like, what next? My plan is to use the worker to mine the bare plains hill 2E of the capital to speed up the settler (I get double hammers when building settlers), then farm the northern corn tile. That will take me about 30 turns, so the remaining turns until the settler would be spend building a road to the new city site. I will end the next round when the settler is built in order to pick the site for the new city.

On the research front, I think I should start researching for the oracle:
mysticism -> meditation (or polytheism) -> priesthood

and then get the prerequisites for metal casting and the pyramids:
pottery -> masonry

My guess is that the ideal time to switch to slavery is when the settler is built, but before he is settled so as to minimize the disruption. Is there anything else I need to consider before the settler is finished?

I've uploaded the save, and as always I look forward to your comments.

Forwards to Round 2: to 2725BC (turn 85)

 

[Thalur]

I would have waited to pop that hut until you had built your city. Without a city, I think you lose the chance at picking up a free tech.

Thanks for the tip, its not something I've ever considered before.

 

[DaveMcW]

My plan is to use the worker to mine the bare plains hill 2E of the capital to speed up the settler (I get double hammers when building settlers), then farm the northern corn tile. That will take me about 30 turns, so the remaining turns until the settler would be spend building a road to the new city site. I will end the next round when the settler is built in order to pick the site for the new city.

Ouch! You should always improve the resources in your capital before building more cities.

Freshwater corn is just as good as an imperialistic mine, and much more powerful when you're not building settlers.

So grow to size 2 and farm both corns. After that you can decide between building a settler or growing to 3 to work the mine.

 

[v8_mark]

Ouch! You should always improve the resources in your capital before building more cities.

From the few Warlord/Noble games I've seen on the forums, this is one of the most common mistakes new players make. It really does make such an enormous difference having one or more 6-yield (food or hammers) tile in your fat cross for settler/worker production, and getting these squares online and producing is the only priority in the first 500 years of the game.

 

[Thalur]

Ouch! You should always improve the resources in your capital before building more cities.

Freshwater corn is just as good as an imperialistic mine, and much more powerful when you're not building settlers.

So grow to size 2 and farm both corns. After that you can decide between building a settler or growing to 3 to work the mine.

Normally I try to grow as soon as possible (I wouldn't even build a worker before size 2) but the stuff I've read about the oracle/MC gambit says to build the settler straight after the worker.

Ah, I've just done the maths - you're right, I'm wrong:

To grow takes 66
To build a settler takes 150/
To farm the freshwater corn takes 15 turns
To mine the plains hill takes 14 turns

1) Build settler while improving mine/corn
After 13 turns the mine is built, giving 4 (8 against settler), which is better than the current tile. In those 14 turns, 84 have been accumulated against the settler, which leaves 216 remaining. I switch to the new square (which gives 2 more than the current square) for the remaining 216, which takes 27 turns (at 8/turn).
This leaves me with 1 settler, a 1 pop city, 1 mine and 1 farmed corn after 41 turns

2) Farm corn while building x, then build settler when at pop 2
Farming the corn takes 15 turns, during which I accumulate 45, which leaves 21 to grow to size 2. The improved corn gives 6/turn, which means it takes 4 more turns to grow to size 2. Once Istanbul reaches size 2, I can build a settler using 6+6 per turn, which takes 25 turns.
This leaves me with 1 settler, a 2 pop city, 1 mine and 1 farmed corn (or 2 farmed corn) after 44 turns
If I build a mine after the first farmed corn I think this drops down to 43 turns.

By following your suggestion of growing first, I gain a population point at the "cost" of a mere 3 turns. A bit of a no-brainer really I promise I'll pay more attention in the future.

 

[Jet]

May I suggest this general approach:

• Develop one city for cottages, with Bureaucracy. This gives you the convenience of a strong source of commerce. Develop every other city for food.
• Plan to run 0-20% culture in peace time, and more in war time. Temper this by the extent to which you can build Theaters and Colosseums.
• Plan to stay in Slavery at least until Guilds. This may help you to appreciate the dynamic use of food for growth, production, and specialists.
• Plan to not settle any great scientists or merchants. Settling is fine, but I think using them for bombs will help you appreciate them better.

Here are some suggested cities, based on our current knowledge and with the artificial assumption that horses and metal don't matter.

They're all positioned for high food to support whipping and specialists. Even #3, with only one food resource, has five freshwater grass flats. #3 is also placed to get the river commerce.

The Spice is a monster spot with high food, commerce, and production. Make it a cottaged Bureaucracy capital with an Academy and maybe the Globe Theater. The other cities are flexible. While you're in Slavery they can whip buildings and either grow, whip units, or run specialists.

Make Spice your second city. It's nearby and has plenty of forests to jump start it. In the immediate term it will contribute commerce, which will be helpful since you have no commerce tiles in your capital. It has 2C from the city tile, 2C if you farm the other plains Spice, and more if you farm or cottage the other river tiles.

Spice would be suitable for chopping the Oracle. Alternatively, Istanbul is strong enough that you could just build the Pyramids by hand there, researching to Math for the chops. If you work commerce tiles in Spice you should be able to do it in time to beat the AIs. You need Math anyway for your UB and your Calendar resources.

If you set up all your cities with high food, you can consider early Nationalism for drafting Janissaries or even Macemen.

 

[Kanorin]

Ah, I've just done the maths - you're right, I'm wrong:
1) Build settler while improving mine/corn
After 13 turns the mine is built, giving 4 (8 against settler), which is better than the current tile. In those 14 turns, 84 have been accumulated against the settler, which leaves 216 remaining. I switch to the new square (which gives 2 more than the current square) for the remaining 216, which takes 27 turns (at 8/turn).
This leaves me with 1 settler, a 1 pop city, 1 mine and 1 farmed corn after 41 turns

2) Farm corn while building x, then build settler when at pop 2
Farming the corn takes 15 turns, during which I accumulate 45, which leaves 21 to grow to size 2. The improved corn gives 6/turn, which means it takes 4 more turns to grow to size 2. Once Istanbul reaches size 2, I can build a settler using 6+6 per turn, which takes 25 turns.
This leaves me with 1 settler, a 2 pop city, 1 mine and 1 farmed corn (or 2 farmed corn) after 44 turns
If I build a mine after the first farmed corn I think this drops down to 43 turns.

Don't forget in situation 2 in addition to having a population 2 city vs. a population 1 city, you also have whatever you are producing during those 27 turns instead of the settler. You can probably pump out 2-3 warriors/scouts or 2 archers (if you have the tech) in the time you had been producing your settler...and your city gets to grow.

Not only that! If the tile you decide to work after hitting pop 2 has commerce, you will also be speeding up your research as you are building.

And don't forget if you have already teched BW before you build your settler, you can help it along by chopping. Also, you'll be able to see where copper is and therefore may be able to grab it with city 2.

I would strongly, strongly advocate waiting until population 4 or 5 (if your is > or = ) before you build your first settler.

Keep in mind that the spice city has a fair bit of jungle and you won't be able to build plantations until you research calendar. It may be wise to wait on that city spot until you at least research ironworking to chop the jungle.

 

[ratrangerm]

Dave is right that you should grow to size two and farm both Corn. You can get a Warrior or two built while it grows, then your Settler can be produced quickly.

Jet's dotmap is good and would certainly allow you to run a specialist economy. I agree that you should ultimately move your capital to the Spices city and take advantage of the commerce it can generate.