Myth01- Training Day- Regent

[CommandoBob]

Good turns, Yahya!

One of my son's friends came over after church last night and we played Settlers/Seafarers of Catan and I did not get a chance to get back to the game again.

Overall, I think we are in good shape. We've got several Archers that complete this IBT, including one in Beijing. We are going to have to start paying military upkeep soon, so we do need to peel off a settler, and maybe even a settler and a worker, from Beijing. And, of course, declare war on India.

The NextSettlerFromBeijing probably won't complete until after we DoW on India. If Calcutta is razed, do we want to replace quickly Calcutta or not?

War with India
Once Calcutta is not an issue, we want to head for Delhi and get it captured. It will take our forces several turns to walk there, but if they stay in a stack they will be okay. If we have stragglers the AI will focus on them, especially if they are wounded.

After Delhi, we might be able to have two stacks to capture the other Indian cities. Depends on our losses and things we can't really see right now. Each stack should have at least 5 units in it; plenty of strength to attack and defend on the same turn and not be wiped out.

I think India has a luxury we don't have; we'll want to get it connected to Beijing as soon as we can, but we will have to be wise with our workers. We have 4 of them and a lot of work to do.

Except for cities making settlers/workers, we need to keep turning out vArchers. We are bound to lose some in the war and some will be needed to keep the cities happy, too. Unit support will be an issue for a while, but once we add a city or two it should take care of itself.

 

[Northen Wolf]

lurker's comment: Yes. Moving that citizen increased beakers from 8 to 9 without changing anything else. Free beakers = good. Yahya, if the science slider wouldn't go down without losing research turns, well, that's the way it goes. If you thought to check it, you did your job.

-It gave one extra commerce, that made one person happy allowing us to lower lux tax from 20%-10%. free breaker is just addon......

Overall, I think we are in good shape. We've got several Archers that complete this IBT, including one in Beijing. We are going to have to start paying military upkeep soon, so we do need to peel off a settler, and maybe even a settler and a worker, from Beijing. And, of course, declare war on India.

- K one settler will come from Beijing, but in like end of my turns?

If Calcutta is razed, do we want to replace quickly Calcutta or not?

-Yes, we want it to be replaced OR roaded, nothing worser than having army marching towards half world and having no base where to retreat.

Once Calcutta is not an issue, we want to head for Delhi and get it captured. It will take our forces several turns to walk there, but if they stay in a stack they will be okay. If we have stragglers the AI will focus on them, especially if they are wounded.

I'll not leave anyone behind on open fields, that can be attacked, unit is too valuable for that.
Aslong as we got roads to take 'em back into strikebase. I am not sure If I would like to share archers into two groups.
My idea was rather to go with group of 11 we got waiting and make other group of like 5 archers to go towards city that Yahya did not notice(you had great turnlog, and I myself would have not noticed that, if that city would not have been on the screenshot). Those 4-5 archers would join with main group and then It would be shared into two groups of 5 and ~10, group of 10 moves towards new capital group of 5 towards freshly founded town, near the river.

Also, if Our losses are too big(due my mistakes or RNG gods), may I sign temp. peace treaty, asking towns/workers/tech/whatever aslong as deal is uber and India has left only like 1-2 city, we can destroy those later?

I think India has a luxury we don't have; we'll want to get it connected to Beijing as soon as we can, but we will have to be wise with our workers. We have 4 of them and a lot of work to do.

Game always places least one resource and one luxury near starting position, and India has grapes, near the warrior on mountain, I am thinking to use warrior to pwn those grapes, not sure if it is good idea tho...

Do we have any general worker plan, expt 1 worker building road towards enemy, to continue our archer support flow?

Except for cities making settlers/workers, we need to keep turning out vArchers. We are bound to lose some in the war and some will be needed to keep the cities happy, too. Unit support will be an issue for a while, but once we add a city or two it should take care of itself.

Not for long, unit supports increase, we will also have to get ready for republic...

 

[Yahya]

First, I have learned something immensely valuable. I never knew that commerce makes happy citizens. But wait, I had first asked how it worked. Looking at a city, I see that unless I am mistaken, the only reason commerce makes people happy is from the luxury slider. Is that not right?

Second, it occurred to me, looking at a screenshot, and later a save, that Canton is probably better suited to making settlers than Beijing. By irrigating one tile, we can generate +3 fpt there, and we are making 3 spt. That means with a granary, the city will grow every 4 turns, and make a settler every 10. This is pretty good (if we want to start cranking them out, or even make one), and we don't have to change the course of Beijing, which is making 2-turn archers for us.

Adding a second path to dyes doesn't help happiness, right? Just enables us to trade it?

 

[Northen Wolf]

We can trade even with 1 source, but we will not be able to use that source then.

Commerce somehow makes peoples happier (or breakers, dunno wich one).

Oh, I can't play today I'll play tmrw night. Real life friends 18th birthday

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment:

-It gave one extra commerce, that made one person happy allowing us to lower lux tax from 20%-10%. free breaker is just addon......

So you got to lower the lux slider and got a free beaker in the deal? Well, that's a bonus then. However you may have used the commerce, the important point is that you got something for free. Frequently, you'll have to trade off (for example) a shield to get an extra food, or a food to get a coin. But any time that you can scare up an extra food, an extra shield or an extra coin without costing the empire something, you've increased your edge over the AI.

First, I have learned something immensely valuable. I never knew that commerce makes happy citizens. But wait, I had first asked how it worked. Looking at a city, I see that unless I am mistaken, the only reason commerce makes people happy is from the luxury slider. Is that not right?

Commerce somehow makes peoples happier (or breakers, dunno wich one).

In a nutshell, that's it. In slightly more detail:

• Your cities generate commerce.
• Corruption is deducted.
• Upkeep and support are paid.
• The remainder is split up according to the sliders, leaving net commerce.
• Part of that goes to making people happy, part to science, and part to the treasury.

I may have these slightly out of order, because I can't remember exactly when upkeep and support are paid. But that's the general idea.

Adding a second path to dyes doesn't help happiness, right? Just enables us to trade it?

Right. And Northen Wolf is correct that you can trade the first source, but then be unable to use it.

 

[Yahya]

In a nutshell, that's it. In slightly more detail:

• Your cities generate commerce.
• Corruption is deducted.
• Upkeep and support are paid.
• The remainder is split up according to the sliders, leaving net commerce.
• Part of that goes to making people happy, part to science, and part to the treasury.

I may have these slightly out of order, because I can't remember exactly when upkeep and support are paid. But that's the general idea.

This is as I thought. Thank you.

Right. And Northen Wolf is correct that you can trade the first source, but then be unable to use it.

I understand. Thanks again!

 

[Northen Wolf]

OK, I played, 2 cities were destroyed and I am sure i lost count of archers somewhere in my logs, India has no barrackses but has horses, Stack of archers is ready to attack, BUT india is offering quite nice peace deal: 23 gold, mysticism and horsback riding & 3 towns.
Our financial situation looks bad due military is over limit.

Went for lit (and libraries), instead of currency (good/Bad?)

Spoiler turnlog :

Turn 0
Micromanage Beijing for one extra commerce and breaker.
Lux from 20% to 10%
Math in 6

Everything else seems fine.
*enter*

IBT
Beijing Archer -> Archer.
Shaghai Archer ->archer.
Volcano near kolhapur active.

Turn one:
Move 2 new archers into positsion for moving onwards to Kolhapur,
total archers I want towards there is 3 or 4.
Canton connected with Tsingtao.
Worker B & D move into Beijing, plan is to improve Shanghai then Canton.

IBT
Indian rSpearman from Bombay to into shadows (Indias capital?).
Canton Archer-> archer.
Canton Growth in one.

Turn two:
Canton Archer towards Tsingtao.
Beijing archer towards strike positsion B.
Worker A&C towards Tsingtao uncompleted road part.
Warker B &D towards Shaghai, next turn Irrigate plain tile.
Math in 4 -2gpt.

IBT
Beijing archer-> Archer.
Nanking Archer-> Archer.
Zulu scout runs circles around our warrior.

Turn three
3 archers move towards Kohalpur(group B), hoping that volcano won't burst on them/city.
Calcutta still in size one, doubt we'll get this one alive...
Workers A&C move into position near Tsingtao.
Beijing archer moves towards Tsingtao.
Workers B&D start irrigating plain near Shanghai.
Math in 3, -4 GPT, 44 gold in vaults.

IBT
Zulus Scout runs circles around mountain.
INDIA IS PRODUCING SETTLERS!
Settler with regular spearman as guard moves between Bombay and Indian capital(?) into warrior vision.
Zulus scout begins his crazy dance around our warrior.

Turn Four
Road towards Calcutta completed.
Rename Warrior on mountain to Spy due he keeps watch of enemy.
Strike in 1 turns.
Nanking Growth in one.

PRE WAR IBT:
India rWarrior appears near Shanghai.
Beijing Archer ->Archer.
Volcano Erupted, good, now my archers stack B can move safely.
Scout dances around our "spy" (WTH?)

Turn Five
Shanghai Archer onto a mountain(I don't want warrior moving on it).
Beijing Archer moving towards Shanghai, just incase our archer-on-a-mountain fails.
Shanghai 2/0/2 H/C/UnH.
Shanghai Irrigation completed.
Shanghai growth in two, due warrior blocking floodplain.
Worker B&D irrigate Canton Area.
Worker A&C irrigate one tile near Tsingtao.
Tsingtao Archers(11) woken up, moving into strike position near Calcutta.
Calcutta is not connected with capital by roads!

IBT:
India comes whining about our archers, I tell him to sell us cheaper milk, he refuses, we refuse, we give him DoW...
India rWarrior moves into roaded floodplain area near Shanghai.
Zulu Scout still runs circles (did he ate some bad herbs??).
Settler and rSpearman move out of Spy's reach.
MATHEMATICS LEARNED!
31 gold in vaults, - 5 gpt
Litarature next learning subject (I was in between of mapmaking, litarture, currency)
Litarture in 11

Turn6
V archer on mountain > Indian rWarrior on plains, but archer redlines.
Beijing archer-> Shanghai.
Archer group B moves next to Kohlhapur, sees rWarrior as defense, kohlapur size one.
Varcher near calcutta > india fortified rSpearman, archer promotes but loses 2 HP
Varcher near calcutta < India rSpear archers causes one damage
Varcher near cacutta > Indian rSpear(2hp) archer loses 2 hp, promotes and Cacutta is razed, 1 gold is
"librated". Rest of stack moves over the river, towards indias capital.
Gold drops onto -4 gpt.

IBT
Spear and settler move out of sight
BAD NEWS INDIA HAS HORSES, horseman appears
Beijing Archer->archer
Shanghai growth 1 and archer ->archer
Canton Archer -> Settler
Tsingtao Barracks ->worker (in 10 turns, we need workers and/or settlers.)
Scout out of "spy" vision.

Turn 7
Kolhapur Varcher > rWarrior, loses one HP.
Kolhapur Varcher < rWarrior, rWarrior loses 2 hp.
Kolahpur Varcher > rWarrio(1hp) Archer promotes, loses 2 hp.
Kolhapur destroyed, 1 gold "librated".
Worker B&D completed irrigation near canton and move onto desert oasis.
Worker A&C move near river of exCalcutta to complete road.
Litarature in 7 29 gold in vaults -6 Gpt.
Move archer stack A near ex calcutta onto a hill, for protection.

IBT:
Indian rHorse > vArcher on a hill, horse loses 1 HP.
Nanking Archer -> settler (need more cities).
Jaipur founded by india.

Turn8
Move archer stack A onto mountain, towards capital and for protection.
Workers complete road near canton on desert oasis.
Move some archers who have reached Tsingtao onto recovering elite archers, for defense against horsie.(Group C)

IBT
Beijing Archer->Archer
4 HP Elite archer, (recovering) > 2hp rHorsie attacking over river, horsie killed, archer loses 3 hp.
rWarrior appears near Tsingtao.

Turn 9
Move 2 Hp elite archer (horsie killer) into tsingtao, by freshly built road.
2 Archers (group B) near volcano ready to move.(recovered HP to full)
Workers B&D irrigate desert oasis, A&D move to continue road towards capital..
Group of 4 archers ready to be moved towards Indian capital.
8 archers from group A advance towards capital, it is still not visible.

IBT
Our treasury is running dangerously low (11 gold in vaults - 7 gpt, Litarature in 7)
Drop science on 40% from 60 + 1gpt lita. in 11.
rWarrior near Tsingtao fortifies.

Turn 10 (last turn)
Delhi found by our archer stack of 8! it is size one rSpear guards it(india has no barracks???)
Group B with: one v & one e archer, near volcano start moving towards shadowed city
Road near ex Calcutta completed, move stack of now 5 archers over the river(group C).

Spoiler For pictures :

Zoom out view

Indian core

He is afraid.

Changed archers into groups so they would be easier to umm understand, still doubt anyone would understand these turnlogs......
How bad are my turnlogs????

 

[choxorn]

lurker's comment: Please say "Stack of Archers", not "Archer Army". Archer Army would usually refer to Archers in an Army.

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment:

. . . .
Turn Five . . . .
Tsingtao Archers(11) woken up, moving into strike position near Calcutta.
Calcutta is not connected with capital by roads!

IBT:
India comes whining about our archers, I tell him to sell us cheaper milk, he refuses, we refuse, we give him DoW...

Does this mean that your archers were in Indian territory when you declared?

. . . .
BAD NEWS INDIA HAS HORSES, horseman appears

So kill them. Horses don't defend all that well, and it means that you'll have horses soon.

. . . . Changed archers into groups so they would be easier to umm understand, still doubt anyone would understand these turnlogs......
How bad are my turnlogs????

IMO, your turnlogs are fine.

 

[Northen Wolf]

lurker's comment:
Does this mean that your archers were in Indian territory when you declared?

lurker's comment:
Yes, but as we had no RoP pact made, it should not influance our reputation, correct??? And I've never seen any use to RoP...

So kill them. Horses don't defend all that well, and it means that you'll have horses soon.

1. Horses move 2 squares
2. We don't have horses
3. Horses have unique ability to retreat unlike one-move-per-turn land units.
4. Horses Are quite good enmasse... Had an experience with germany who pwned my pikemen fortified on a hill... I never imagined something could brake all those defense bonuses...

 

[darski]

Yes, but as we had no RoP pact made, it should not influance our reputation, correct??? And I've never seen any use to RoP...

lurker's comment: Sorry but you will take a rep hit for that one. You will suddenly find that other Civs will not be so open to trade deals and especially per turn deals. I think you can work your way out of disgrace eventually though over time.

 

[choxorn]

lurker's comment: More specifically, they won't be so willing to make RoP deals.

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment:

Yes, but as we had no RoP pact made, it should not influance our reputation, correct??? And I've never seen any use to RoP...

No. You just tarnished your rep, at best. I'm not very good with rep, but my guess is that your reputation is tarnished with everyone and totally busted with the Indians.

1. Horses move 2 squares
2. We don't have horses
3. Horses have unique ability to retreat unlike one-move-per-turn land units.
4. Horses Are quite good enmasse... Had an experience with germany who pwned my pikemen fortified on a hill... I never imagined something could brake all those defense bonuses...

Horses can be devastating in the hands of a human player, and can be problematic in AI hands. You've just got to fight smarter than the AI. The AI is rarely smart enough to use them en masse. Use terrain to your advantage. Make the AI attack uphill and across rivers. Kill the wounded. Do not kill the leave your own wounded open to attack.

 

[Northen Wolf]

RoP reputation

RoP reputation is a related topic but quite independent of trading reputation. It decides if AI is willing to sign RoP with you. Your RoP rep is trashed if you declare war on the AI while you have any units with attack/defense value (including boats) inside AI territory, regardless of whether you actually have RoP deal with the AI. Trading and RoP reputation is maintained separately and does not affect each other.

I checked war academy, and this is what it says... I had no idea that rop is considered 'broken' even if no RoP has been made. How come AI does not get these penalties? In warlord, I was often declared by civ who broke RoP's like Walker from movies... He often enough declared on others, that he had no connection, sneak-attacked and back stabbed and still he had RoP's with 2 civs to reach me and backstab me... (germany).

 

[choxorn]

lurker's comment: It's one of my major pet peeves with the game- the AI cares everything about human reputation, but nothing about the reputation of each other. AINation1 could declare war on AINation2 while AINation1 is paying AINation2 500gpt and none of the AI would give a damn.

What's even more annoying is that if a human's rep is shot, the AI makes gpt deals cost more for them, but if an AI's rep is shot, that AI won't pay the human any more gpt for a tech than if their rep wasn't shot.

 

[Aabraxan]

lurker's comment: Yeah, that's rather annoying. I've tend to just not worry about the AI's rep because it has no apparent effect whatsoever. Northen Wolf, if your units are in their territory, I guess you've got an "implied ROP." Don't worry. The rep problem will make this game more difficult/expensive in the trading arena, but not impossible. Somewhere around here, there's a zero-research SG. It wasn't too long ago, and those guys won the game with zero research and their rep was busted pretty early, too.

 

[CommandoBob]

Let me try to summarize what we should learn about Declaring War and Reputation.

First, a human, you are held to a higher standard than the AI. No one likes it that way, but that is just way things are.

Second, if a human declares war on an AI and any human units are inside that AI's border, the human takes a reputation hit. Naval units have to be outside the pretty colored line and so do workers, settlers and all units that can be captured (catapults, trebuchets, etc).

Third, this is an easy mistake to make. And a popular one, too. Anyone could have been tripped up by this.

Fourth, we can still make trades. Buying something with gold per turn will be more difficult, but lump sum trades are still possible. Selling our luxuries might be a little harder/less profitable. But that is okay. If this game is too easy, nobody will learn anything.

Fifth, busted reputation or not, India still dies.

 

[CommandoBob]

And a very heartfelt Thank You to Abraxan for lurking while I was distracted last week.

 

[Northen Wolf]

Trading and RoP reputation is maintained separately and does not affect each other.

But is war academy wrong then??
I had no idea that when no RoP deal was in play, I'll still broke RoP...
Is roster Like this now?:

Roster:
pol1 - skip
Pinman - skip?
ngraner43 - just played
Yahya - Done
Northen Wolf - Played
CommandoBob - Your turn

 

[Bucephalus]

Somewhere around here, there's a zero-research SG. It wasn't too long ago, and those guys won the game with zero research and their rep was busted pretty early, too.

And here is a link.